women are complicated ok? not all of them think alike

People, not just women, are much more critical and hostile in groups.
People want to establish their place in the group and being nice won't do it. Nice is so under-rated.

Women are complicated and every person including women are unique.The "alpha male" thing isn't always the case there will always be a place for the nice guys [ I am one of them with you].

You have defeated yourself by saying you lose either way, try talking so more because you haven't lost either way. Maybe they don't understand you as a person because you don't talk that much and the solution would be to be more open. If they are your friends it will work out.

-the best of luck to you :)

Hi Jasper: The alpha male is a great term in the animal kingdom, but for humans, he isn't always top dog in what human females want. The human top dog can end up being self centered, rude, and a mess.

I don't know what group you go to, or what it entails when you "speak what [you] want to say", but rehearse at home what you are going to say and perhaps you will refine what you say and it will come out so much better.

Good luck.

Yea, I know exactly what you are talking about! lol. Groups suck because people really want entertainment. Also group therapy sucks because if the group doesn't see that you "fit" it wil have no mercy on you. It's like society, if you don't fit in, you can die on the street, that's what we as humans have created. Even the samaritan who does the good deed recieves applause because of conditioning.

With women, why waste your time and energy on them if you see them going after "alpha males?" It's not your problem, it's there problem. Most women don't appreciate the nice guy because society punishes the nice. Then the women are faced with the decision of doing right or wrong in their minds and most choose the easiest route, the alpha male because of money and security. It's that simple. I've been labeled "nice" too many times to count and it's gotten to the point where I don't talk to women unless they talk to me and that doesn't happen because society has labeled me a loser. Don't let society dictate who you are, I'll give you an example. Today I had a 2 dollars and 2 cents and went to the store. A woman clerk was at the register and miscounted my money. The niceness inside of me compelled me to tell her she was wrong and I gave her back the money. Did it matter if she came running after me as I walked out of the store hollering "take me now"? No that wasn't the point, being nice was a characteristic I've found naturally gratifying, so regardless of the person, it effected them and now she won't get in trouble when counting the drawer at the end of her shift. One thing I have also learned is that trying to figure women out is a sure way to become disappointed as a man, like any human being they can change with the wind. People in general are selfish, society enables this selfishness with trends and "norms" that sometimes are simply irrational and can be very hurtful to the innocent person.

If I was a woman I would not ignore you sorry. I get ignored by women too.

I understand where you are coming from since women ignore me too. I always find it funny to read in their dating profile wanted bad boy who is a nice guy. Go figure on that thinking. Women who like the alpha male type think they are going to change him or fix him which rarely happens and after they get their heart broken they take it out on all men until the next fixing project comes along and the cycle repeats its self. All I can say is just keep hanging in there. Peace

Well,I thought it was just me,so I'm not the only one this happens to! I've always been viewed as the "Nerdy" type,and usually women look at me like they stepped in something nasty! I've gotten to the point of not speaking unless spoken to for that reason,since men do the same thing a lot of times,too! I've been in AA for a long time,which is a great place to see the group dynamics in play,and I still only have like 3 friends from all this time! I wish I had something nice to say about human nature,but I've seen so many women chase after the biggest loser in the room to the point it makes me physically ill! Feel free to call me Jealous,but it's just infuriating,because the woman will be back in a short time calling him sucn an A8Shole! I thought twice about replying,but just had to do it,to get this off my chest! Hang in there!

Any woman over the age of 20 who still goes for the "bad boy" type is immature. I stopped liking bad boys when I graduated high school. It takes some women a long time to learn that they are better off with a nice, stable, "boring" guy than with a bad boy type who is likely to hurt or cheat or lie. Some women never learn. Just keep your head up, smart women who like good men still exist.

I don't know about you but I sometimes push myself to come across as a stronger person than I really am. My personality is such that I hardly ever meet a stranger but that sometimes gets me in trouble. I am kind of a flirt but it is really just being friendly and outgoing. In a group, I sit back till I get the "lay of the land." Then I am outspoken to some, big mouth to others.
If you see a woman you would like to get to know better, talk to her after the meeting. She may be just as shy as you appear. You won't know if you don't try.
I have a friend--male--who was so shy he didn't talk to me till I had know him for about a year. Then he opened up and we are still friends over 5 years after I left the job.
I recently heard that we only regret the chances we didn't take. You can get hurt but if you don't try, it is a sure thing.
Best wishes
Mary

I can see that you have been hurt and disappointed through your experiences with women and I am so sorry for your pain. I want to say 'don't generalise...we are not all the same' but I too am guilty of generalising through bad experiences. I hope this helps in some way, even just to give you another person's perspective....

I am a women and as I am celibate, of course friendships are important to me and I have had disasters with men and women.

I have met men who establish a friendship with me, then reveal they want more and when I don't reciprocate the romantic feelings, they simply cut me off. I would go so far as to say they are hostile towards me on social occasions when we have bumped into each other. I never gave them the slightest sign that I was interested in a romantic sense and yet they turned nasty. My only male friends now are all in committed relationships and I love and respect both them and their partners. I no longer seek friendships with men who are single now.

I have had friendships with women who have been controlling, competitive and manipulative with me and utterley obsessed with finding a man and yes often they seem to be attracted to idiots. I have learned to distance myself from these women too.

I am blessed to know many very good and kind people, unfortunately my loved ones are all in a different country as I am working abroad but they are all in relationships and have families. Although I am single, I have found it very hard to connect with other single people because of the examples above, men and women.

After all that waffle, I simply want to say there are women who feel quite isolated too.

First off, we humans are not lions on the African savannah. And secondly, there is no "system" to blame. Rest assured there is no conspiracy against you.

Are you seeking serious treatment for your depression? I ask because people can smell depression a mile away - and they are driven away. This is absolutely normal, a hardwired survival mechanism in people, so you need to stop projecting blame. A strong tendency to blame the world for your unhappiness is a definite turn-off too, and it won't take long to drive women or anyone else away. My advice to you is to scrap the navel-gazing groups in favour of something more... professional... and likely to bring about desired results in your lifetime. You'll be glad you did. If money is a problem, look for therapists who work on a sliding scale. And ask your doctor about treating the depression too, because its more useful to have a two-pronged approach instead of hoping one or the other treatment is enough to do the trick.