Great post Cole. I like the way you have broken it down. Once again I will ask my H to read. Maybe this after the article will have some affect...even when I say I lose hope, I always manage to find it again...for now.

Thank you.

"integrate those two people into a narrative that provides them security and trust are the ones with the potential to rebuild into a healthy relationship."

I don't have the ability to "integrate" anyone? I think they must "integrate" themselves? And, how can one integrate security and trust into a relationship that is not based on security and trust? I did feel secure. I did trust. But, there was apparently no basis for those. So, what is it that you "integrated?" Where did you find trust from the untrustworthy? And where did you find security with the untrustworthy? Maybe a bit more info could help see how this works.

Sheen, I may be mistaken but I think I know what Cole was getting at. It's not so much about security and trust in the relationship. It's about feeling sure that your perception, the story you have in your head about your relationship, is complete, that you have all the pieces of the puzzle and you're looking at the whole picture. Being secure in the belief that there won't be any more major pieces that will cause you to have to reassess and rewrite the story of your relationship again. Being able to trust your own perception of what is real, and that you are making your choices from an fully informed place.

Reconstructing the narrative lets you believe in yourself and your mind again, without the crazy feeling you live with when you're getting trickle truth.

Does that make sense?

Cole, did I come even close in interpreting your article?

I still have difficulty with the "understanding what happened" and integrating that into a narrative, too. How do you turn lies and deception into trust and security even for the future? How do you turn what you thought was reality, and what you believed to be what your relationship was, into a narrative that makes sense.,I remember conversations I had with my H during that time where I believed we were honestly sharing ideas and opinions, and even those were lies. I look back at pictures and see my smiling, happy face and his glum expression, and think what a fool I was, I made excuses for his behavior then, and I protect him and his reputation now. I wish I could create a narrative that wasn't so disheartening. I now know what was real, for the most part, but it certainly isn't a narrative that gives me any kind of relief or reassurance.

Yes, Fiber, I think you did.

Let's put it this way, Sheen. Look at it from the perspective of your identity. Each person that enters our lives, through experiences with them, creates another thread to our story that forms in us a picture of who we are, who they are, and how we relate to them, that is, how we integrate that person and their experiences into my story, thus affecting my identity.

By way of example. Lets say your 16, and discover for the first time that you were adopted. In one moment, your whole story of who you believe yourself to be changes. Why, because the mother and father who for 16 years you'd grown up believing was your biological parents, are not. You're history gets rewritten. Your story. And the new true story that you now know reflects reality has to be incorporated into your story...because their story is part of your story.

You are not trying to force them to integrate into your reality. You are trying to integrate what you now know to be the reality into your story. To do that, you have to be confident to know that you have the real reality. The real picture of where you stand with this person, and security to know it isn't going to radically change again on you. if you cannot gain the sense that you fully know the story, you will not have the security to move forward with rebuilding.

The rebuilding of trust and marital security is a different issue, and takes years. But having the security that you've got enough of the real story to even embark upon the process of integrating that new reality...their real story, into your life again so they can continue to be a part of your story is where I'm coming from.

And I would add, it isn't even so much a matter of whether you know everything, but that you know enough of the *truth* of what happened that your picture of their story doesn't radically shift on you.

Mmmonroe,

You are correct. Getting a sense that you know the reality, the full story, the truth, doesn't equate with successfully integrating that narrative into yours for a new story. That's what rebuilding is about, and is much more involved than simply getting a picture of what the real story is.

However, if you don't feel like you're getting the whole story, it prevents that process from even starting. Without trust that you know his story, you cannot even begin to rebuild trust in him. Integrating their reality into yours takes lots of time. And it may not happen. But neither person will be able to move forward if the BS cannot trust the story they are getting is real. Each new discovered lie tells the BS, "He is still hiding things I don't know about."

Thank you Fiber. That was helpful. These issues seem a bit fuzzy for me sometimes. I'm sure you know that. I mean, I know that after finding the life that was not real life, I had to get that and move on with life as it really is. I found that takes a bit of down time. Quite shocking...to say the least. For the first time in my life, I had really trusted another person. Wow, was that ever a big mistake. Yes, the truth did alter what I had perceived previously as reality. And, the reality certainly wasn't a pleasant one. So, the predominately pleasant life that had been in my memory was no more. And, the life I saw for the first time took its place. I really don't like to remember any of it, neither the life that was no more, nor the replacement. Seems far easier to just observe the day.

Fiber: You said, "Reconstructing the narrative lets you believe in yourself and your mind again, without the crazy feeling you live with when you're getting trickle truth. Does that make sense?"

Yes, well said...believe in "my" mind again. I was so shocked it nearly broke what I refer to as my mind. I will never, ever, not in a million years, trust a person like that again. Huge error on my part.

Sheen, I wish that being able to trust your perception could bring you more comfort. I'm sorry that you've lost your ability to trust, and all that goes along with that. It makes for a lonely life in some important ways.

Fiber: I don't equate life with lonely, or not. I am quite comfortable with solitude. I mean, I enjoy relationships to a point, but relationship is not life to me. So, I'm ok with it. It's just very different from what I had thought; so different that I couldn't possibly return to that state of mind again. I think it may well have been good for me. I mean, no one is promised a good relationship, or even a tomorrow, and in ways, it was good for me to get a firm grasp on that. I live my life with the aim to enjoy every good thing in every day, and I can't quite find fault with that. As far as a truly connected relationship, like I thought I had, I don't ever expect to attain that now, and that's ok, it isn't required for happiness.

Thanks for being sensitive to that though. I once was very keen on the marriage relationship. I think that it took far too much precedence in my life. I won't make that error again.

Cole: Thank you for the subject matter and your input on the issues. I always find them interesting. I read. I hear. I ponder. Your posts give me pause for thought. You shared, "The rebuilding of trust and marital security is a different issue, and takes years. But having the security that you've got enough of the real story to even embark upon the process of integrating that new reality...their real story, into your life again so they can continue to be a part of your story is where I'm coming from. "

Oh, I'm pretty sure I got enough of the real story, wow, did I ever. It seems nearly impossible to live with a person as long as I have and not know who the heck they really are? Though, that is the truth of the matter. It was like looking at a complete stranger, and the man I thought I knew only an illusion or something. Well, it came down some time later to "parts" of him I did not know. Some fairly integral ones I think.

Really was shocking. Can't quite stress that enough? I can remember sitting for long periods just staring at him. He seemed a complete stranger to me. Weird! I was just totally stunned from shock for a long time. He really snowed me! I mean really! I had "no" idea whatsoever. It was handed to me on an immediate and direct basis from an absolutely ironclad source. Thank goodness, there were no questions about that part of it. I got handed reality on a silver platter...just..like that. I couldn't have been more surprised if I found myself on another planet? No basis to grasp onto. Total shock. Renewed PTSD, fullblown. Can't quite describe that. Hope I can forget it in fact.

Likely, the extreme sort of shock I suffered comes of living with a person for over thirty years? I thought I knew him. I did not! Not at all! Wow! I'll likely never be that shocked in this life again. That's the up side of it all, it can never happen again. Thank the Lord for that. I had been praying a lot, and like all prayers, they do get answered, though sometimes not what I expect. Though I can say I am thankful the knowledge came to light, it changed things permanently for me. Whatever life I "thought" I was living came to a very abrupt end. And the life I was entertwined with exposed for me to do with as I wished. A gift in an unmarked paper wrapper?

I have to say, I consider the information to be more the knowledge of facts than any kind of story. Maybe I think of "story" as some kind of made up thing, or stuff of fairytales, I dunno. And, my grandparents always referred to lies as stories...seems rather appropriate in this scenario? Yeah, I heard the truth of all of the stories. So "story" likely doesn't sit with me very well. The new reality is the new reality for me, it changed everything I had ever thought about the relationstip, and became just knowing "the other side of the story." And, that other side changed everything I ever felt about it.

My H is a "part" of my story now, he has his own life to reflect on, I have my life to reflect on. The marriage seems like there was nothing to reflect on. Well, maybe, a reflection of how different another's perspective really is? It felt, and sometimes still does, like taking thirty years and wiping them clean out of existence...unreal...fake..a twisted joke of sorts. His life and my life were two separate things apparently, at the very least the perspective of the marriage. The things I had felt, were the things "I" had felt. So, my life stands out to me as a solitary walk. That's ok. I did just fine. I believed, what I believed, so I behaved as I believed. In retrospect, that seems rather funny, in a strange way. Though, it isn't really.

I know that my H and I have had, and do have, some sort of life together. And yet, I often wonder what that is, or why that is? We get along great. We are comfortable companions. We almost always were, sans D-day and several years thereafter. And, we are now, though not as I once felt. But, all the rest, that stuff of marriage and all that I personally associated with it, is gone like the wind. So, I find it difficult to understand what you mean by "if you cannot gain the sense that you fully know the story, you will not have the security to move forward with rebuilding." I think that I do know the story. I think I know enough of the story to have destroyed any liklihood of returning to any of my estimations prior to D-day.

I can understand why "story' might be seen as "fiction" if that is the primary context you've experienced it in. The analogy hit with me, being a writer.

Think of it more as a non-fiction story. When you pick up a biography of someone, you're getting the account of someone's life filtered through the biographer. While you hope he's not making stuff up out of thin air, what events, successes, or failures he uses, leaves out, depends upon unreliable sources for, or simply never discovered in research, can affect how accurately the story told reflects reality.

As we attempt to make sense of our reality, we construct that story for ourselves, filtered through what events, successes, and failures we focus on or leave out. Or parts from other stories that intersect with our own that we don't know about.

There is the reality. Then there is what we perceive the reality to be. Sometimes our story can end up being "fiction," at least parts of it, if it is based too heavily on inaccurate or selective data.

Like you, I was totally shocked. Thought I knew my wife of 29 years well enough--thought I understood her story fully--to believe she'd never have sex with another man. That part of the story was blown out of the water as I read her confession to one of her online friends. Like you, I didn't have to worry about trickle truth. I had pretty much the full outline of what she'd done in about five minutes of reading her confession. That event put into question everything I thought I knew about her.

For instance, I'd always felt I would know when something was wrong with her or bothering her. When that happened, her whole mood and attitude became pouty. She'd mumble to herself and sulk. I knew when i saw that I'd better find out if I needed to apologize or deal with something that was bothering her. I figured I would know if she ever did anything like cheat. The guilt would just eat her up and it would be so obvious to me that something was wrong.

In five minutes, that story was shot to hell. She had acted so alive, so happy with our marriage, to the point of having sex nearly everyday if not more than once a day, that the last thing I would have guessed is she was having sex with another man.

But knowing what happened is only part of it. For the story is continuing to be written. To do that in the wake of such disillusionment, you need to be let in on the continuing story and process the story you now have, which takes a while. Even though I knew pretty much what had happened from day one, I didn't know what that meant for the present course of our story. I needed to learn who this new person is again to even think about reintegrating her back into my life.

Like you said, she'd become a stranger to me. Not a complete, blank-slate stranger, but she'd changed so significantly that in order to continue to have her in my story, I needed to get to know this now stranger, and find out if continuing is even possible.

If Gabi had not wanted to talk about shortly after dday, had wanted me to get over it and stop talking about it so much after the first month, like so many CSs do, that would have prevented me from getting to know her, her continuing story. Not just the past, but where she's at right now.

Imagine you are single and start dating a guy. You "fall in love" with him. How deeply do you want to know him? As much as possible. The more deeply you know him, the more intimacy that includes. The more accurate of a picture you have of him, the more you'll feel you can invest including him in your own reality, your own story line.

How much truer is it when you suddenly feel you don't know your spouse due to such a drastic change in them? You have to get to know them again, which takes interaction, and processing yourself what changed and how to rebuild to a new story that will be good for both parties.

No, I will never see Gabi like I did prior to dday. The new storyline I discovered makes that impossible. The question is whether a new storyline can be constructed for the future, and if so, will it be acceptable. Or do you ditch that plot line/character and bring in someone new, or just go it alone. That's where the processing comes into play. No way to know or control what the CS does or fails to do. But it is your story, and eventually you'll have to make the decision to include him in the rest of your life, or cut your losses.

Cole: Sure, that's exactly how I felt. And, so, the changes of reality become the scope of the interactions from there on. Like,well, hubby, ol' boy, you certainly are "not" who I thought you were. So, now that "we" know more who "you" are, things change. I behaved in the ways I did, because of beliefs I held about who you were and how things were.

And, since that is "not" the way you really are, or how things really were, my behavior now changes accordingly to the way things "are." Welcome to a situation entirely of your making. I think you'll find it less than perfect, as I have been here and done that before. I'm no novice. And, so, now, we find out the truth of this situation. Thank you for the enlightenment into your dissatisfaction. You'll get to hear mine if we go forward from here. If not, your dissatisfaction is quite clear and accepted as such.

Either way, any choice he made from that point on, his behavior brought my full, unfettered attention to what's up? Now ya got me. You've hurt me. Congratulations, I trusted you. You're a great liar and deceiver. Pat yourself firmly on the back. Now I know, and things change accordingly. You have my full attention for the time being. Ok. So. Let's hear it. State your case. Explain your behavior. So, let's hear it. What is that you wanted? And, what is it you want from me now?

No more taking "anything" for granted for me. "All" behavior will be scrutinzed along with my personal decision making. Now "we" begin to deal with "your" behavior. Since you've made the choice to destroy a life of nearly thirty years, I got some things to do. Choose your words carefully, think about them before you speak, because I "will" hold you responsible not only for your previous behavior, but also your immediate behavior. Want out? Get out! Simple and pure. Want something else? What is that? And why?

I let him know, the rules have now changed as you changed them. And, they will reflect the real situation. So, not only will the cheating behavior cease and desist immediately if you choose to speak at all with me, so will all the other "supporting" behaviors. Not if...will. Or, you can take the alternative and go. Either choice on your part, will fly for the present moment, and only the present moment. I may determine at any time to end all conversations. I maintain that right.

All deals are off. All promises through. Now, it's a different ballpark. You changed everything, and now, a brand new situation arises. You get nothing you didn't earn...and everything that you did earn. Welcome to the real world of cause and effect. Your behavior does not stand alone isolated. Your behavior creates results. And now, the results begin.

I suppose that's a good thing, because I know how much to invest, and how much not to invest. I saw no reason, nor see a reason to rush into, or out of, anything. There is no where I need to be. Nothing pressing to do. And, since most of my life is already expended, I see no particular reason to run. I'm quite able to handle anything he'd like to dish out at this point. I handle this kind of thing quite differently. I don't handle a person who is irresponsible and selfish as I would a person who is neither.

So, he got a list of necessary boundaries. And, they are broadscoped. I figure, if we are going to stay together on any terms at all, I am going to be comfortable. If for any reason, whether it be furtive behavior, disrespectful attitutes, manipulative interactions, it will stop...right now. And, if you still choose to stay...within the boundaries that are comfortable for me, ok. If not, and you don't like the "new" set of rules, then we won't be interacting much at all.

His behavior hurt me. Hurt changes me. And that is something both he and I will live with, whether together, or apart.

Cole: This interested me too, "The question is whether a new storyline can be constructed for the future, and if so, will it be acceptable. Or do you ditch that plot line/character and bring in someone new, or just go it alone."

I feel like the storyline, or my life, whichever seems the more accurate term, is being constructed, whether or not I realize it, from the moment I perceived the truth. Truth seems to have the overall affect of changing things. The truth...does not bend...it isn't fluid...it just is. This thing is definitely a life changing event for me, whatever I chose at any moment, or choose to do thereafter. Change! Absolute and irrevocable. I accept that. Maybe I feel it's somewhat like the cheater, once they've cheated, they can't ever be free of that reality. And, once I've been cheated, I can't ever be free of that reality either. I'd like to. Wouldn't that be nice?

My husband may well be someone who engages in far too much fantasy. I mean, maybe he could fantasize that he could play and not pay, but that isn't the way it is. I know that. So, I choose to not cheat. I know the results, and I choose to avoid those results of my own self-made folly. Simple really if one has the ability to think at all? I can't perceive that anyone does not get that those behaviors have an immediate and lasting impact, both for him, and for me. No eraser is ever going to do. Fantasy. Reality? Cause and effect? Expect results? Think before reacting? Weigh the costs? I think maybe, if my H has a brain to think at all, that he "did" in fact weigh the costs until they actually came due? Ah well, even the best laid plans can run amuck? Reality is not quite the same as fantasy?

I am a realist...facts...not fiction? Life, not story? Finite, not infinite? Life goes on for its duration no matter what we choose to do. We get old whether or not we like it? I can't change that, any more than I can change this? My H suggesting that nothing should change, is like suggesting to me that I not get old. Really? And how does one accomplish that particular feat? Sounds great, but not viable. Fantasy. I know that life is finite. And, it can be bad or good at any given time. So, I aim to seek the good of it as much is as reasonably viable. And that is all I can do. I don't have a magic eraser for me, or for him.

Consequently, I feel like whether or not it's acceptable for any individual seems relient on many things, exchanges, other values, other needs, other wants, and situation. I mean, if romance and intimacy were first in my order of priorities, I would have divorced him immediately, if not sooner......ha! But they aren't. They were....and that wasn't successful...but they are no longer. I mean, I had to accept the reality of the situation.

He knows that. I let him know that. Now, you have done something that has changed my feelings about our relationship, and I have now power to change that, and neither do you. That truth may be accepted, or not, from either party. I wish I could change it. I wish I could feel as I once felt. I tried. Gave it my best shot. But, I can't. I told you eons ago that I couldn't. Apparently, either you didn't believe me, or you didn't care. Either way, it is what it is now. He indicated to me that he didn't really get that his behavior would change my feelings so radically. Wow! Fantasy run amuck? Really?

As far as someone new? Not in this lifetime. Not even. I would never, ever, involve myself in a situation where my life and happiness may be so drastically and negatively affected. That doesn't even seem in a remote way attractive to me. Now, were I a younster, perhaps that would be of interest. However, I doubt that very much knowing what I know now. Had I the slightest inclination of the disaster of having involved my life so intimately with another, I would have forgone the risk. And, at this age, it is not even remotely interesting. That...I know for sure. Life has far too much joy to offer without the risk of disaster.

I don't think I'd ever be what I consider "alone." I have family. I have friends. And there are billions of interesting folks on the planet. So, alone? Not likely. But, even were that so, there are scads of interesting things to do that do not include so much investment. I think those particular kinds of investment often yield really bad returns. I think the divorce rate might be indicative of that?

What I'm attempting to say, is that yes, a viable marriage might result after infidelity, but it is not what it was, and it never can be. So, the situation must be weighed carefully by the BS, because life does go on, and the quality of that life is relient on the choices we make. And, whether or not a CS can ever be a viable partner again is quesitonable at the least. I advance with extreme caution, and with observation. I cannot be hurt again to level I was, it's impossible, but I am no immune to the disasters of those revelations. So, it's different, depending on the level of deception and betrayal, and it's different, depending on many other factos. But, caution seems the order of the day when another seems to be in fantasyland.