Fibromyalgia Support Group

You're not alone in your pain. Fibromyalgia is a condition that can be difficult to diagnose and manage. If you're trying to cope with pain throughout your body, sleep problems, general fatigue, or other common fibromyalgia symptoms, you're in the right place. The community is here for you to talk about therapies and share your challenges.

2 Online
2 Online

Muscle knots- Fibro or not?

I have had a horrible time with muscle knots in my upper back and lower shoulder. Is this part of fibro? I go through phases like anything else I do with fibro but I am beginning to wonder if maybe I am just "out of alignment" and need a chiropractic adjustment.. Today I feel as if I have been ran over by a Mack truck. I am not sure if I could stand an adjustment right now. I am so afraid someone is going to touch my shoulder and I will yell in pain before I realize what I am doing.

Replies

Jonsparky
Jonsparky

Hi,
The knots in your muscles, are very much FM. I have some huge ones on my back, shoulders legs etc. If you read my thread, it explains exactly what they are, and how to hopefully get rid of them.
http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Fibromyalgia/forum/12668294-i-go-doctors
Good luck,
Jon
PeaceN2You
PeaceN2You

No - the muscle knots are not fibro - they are myofascial pain. A lot of people (including me) have both but they're not the same thing.

Fibro has "tender points" which are not knots - just highly sensitive places in the muscle. Myofascial pain creates knots ("trigger points") in the muscles that can be worked out via massage or other methods, and can also be injected when all else fails.

We have one member, Hayleydaniels, who is our resident "expert" on myofascial pain and treatment - hopefully she'll see this and respond.
deleted_user
deleted_user

I get knots in my muscles...especially back and neck
deleted_user
deleted_user

My understanding is the same as PeaceN2You 's.... so will not repeat.
Sorry your going through this and hope you can feel better soon.

take care
gentle hugs
Jonsparky
Jonsparky

Fibromyalgia Knots

Print this article

Relief is available for fibromyalgia knots.
Fibromyalgia knots are hard, ropelike knots that develop in the muscles in fibromyalgia patients. They can occur in just the arms, just the thighs, or all over the body. Although treatment options are available for fibromyalgia knots, there is no cure for fibromyalgia, and the condition can be painful, chronic and long-lasting. Relief, however, is available.

Background
Fibromyalgia occurs in 3 to 5 percent of the population. Most patients diagnosed with fibromyalgia are women, but the syndrome also occurs in men and children. Nearly 25 percent of people with fibromyalgia are work-disabled. Overall pain in all the muscles of the body is the biggest and most common symptom, and fibromyalgia knots that develop in the muscles further aggravate the condition. Other symptoms include fatigue, irritable bowel syndrome, headaches, memory loss, concentration problems and increased sensitivity to noise, light, odors, foods and medications.

Identification
Fibromyalgia knots, sometimes called fibro-knots, can be felt as hard lumps in the muscle. They are usually painful, and when pressure is exerted on the knot, pain can radiate to the surrounding muscles. Most patients get them in their arms, legs and knees, although they can appear anywhere. They also can appear in groups, or just as a single knot.

Causes
Fibromyalgia knots are sometimes the result of a buildup of lactic acid in the muscle. Another cause can be a dysfunctional healing response found in fibromyalgia patients: the fibroblast, the major cell of the intramuscular connective tissue, secretes pro-inflammatory cytokines, causing painful inflammation. The Oregon Health and Science University found dysfunction of the intramuscular connective tissue in fibromyalgia. This fascia inflammation leads to overall sensitization, or pain.

Prevention
While there has been no proven cure, several steps can prevent the formation of fibromyalgia knots. Drinking plenty of water flushes out toxins that aggravate fibromyalgia symptoms. A fiber supplement that is not habit forming can help flush out toxic internal matter, too. Gentle exercise such as yoga help keep the lymph system moving. This prevents overall pain, which in turn helps prevent the dysfunctional immune response.

Solutions
Gentle massage and heat can help soothe and release the fibromyalgia knots. Massotherapy also releases the knots. Muscle relaxers such as Soma and Zanaflex can sometimes help. Lyrica is a pain medication developed specifically for fibromyalgia that can help alleviate the discomfort, although it can't fix the knots. Serratiopeptidase, an over-the-counter remedy, is an enzyme that digests the proteins causing pain and inflammation. It has been effective in treating fibromyalgia patients who are sensitive to medication.

Fibromyalgiawww.wichiaricenter.org/
The Wisconsin Chiari Institute may help Fibromyalgia Symptoms!
Fibromyalgia Diagnosisfibrocheckup.com
Living With Fibromyalgia? Get All Your Questions Answered Today!
Best Pillow on Earthwww.SobelWestex.com/BestPillow
Found in hotels around the world Available in Standard, Queen, King
Fibromyalgia DisabilityAllsup.com/Fibromyalgia-Disability
Find Out If Fibromyalgia Qualifies You For Disability Income Right Now
Ads by Google
References

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: Fibromyalgia
Fibromyalgia Network: Symptoms
Discovery Health: Identifying Fibromyalgia
Resources

Your Health Detective: Fibromyalgia--Understanding "Fibro-Knots"
Myalgia: Fibromyalgia Information Foundation
Photo Credit massage image by fderib from Fotolia.com;
Read Next: Trigger Points Exercises


Print this article
You May Also Like
Fibromyalgia Recovery
Fibromyalgia is a syndrome of symptoms affecting nearly 10 million U.S. citizens. Recovery is possible through pain management, treatment of co-existing conditions ...

How to Remove Muscle Knots with Pressure Points
All sorts of things cause muscle knots in our everyday lives. They can result from exercising too hard, working too much, sleeping in an unusual position, or stress ...

Fibromyalgia Knee Pain
Fibromyalgia has many victims. It is estimated that between six and eight million people suffer from this condition, which is a chronic and widespread musculoskeletal ...

Fibromyalgia Treatment Options
Fibromyalgia is not curable, but it is treatable. Treatments aim to improve symptoms of fibromyalgia. Several treatments options area available. One or more of these ...

Fibromyalgia Cure
While there is no known cure for fibromyalgia, it's possible to effectively treat the symptoms of the disorder. With a little trial and error, you can learn to better ...

How to Remove Muscle Knots
Chances are high that some time in your life you will suffer the pain of a knotted muscle. Muscles function best when they are well-nourished with the right amount of ...

Causes of Chronic Muscle Pain
Fibromyalgia is a syndrome that confuses the medical community. While no one is certain of the correct underlying causes of fibromyalgia, the number one symptom is ...

Symptoms of Fibromyalgia & Myofacial Pain Syndrome
Fibromyalgia is a condition that causes chronic muscle pain throughout the body. Myofascial pain, in contrast, affects the fascia, or connective tissue covering the ...

How to Macrame a Clew Knot
The clew knot is a decorative design based on an old mariner's knot of the same name. This style of knot gathers the cords in and then spreads them out again ...

How to Handle Fibromyalgia
Fibromyalgia is considered a pain syndrome, not a disease, and it is best diagnosed by a rheumatologist or other physician familiar with the condition.
Jonsparky
Jonsparky

I think we are talking about two different things. I was referring to the littl knots or bumps in the muscles, I have hundreds in my legs and other muscles, these are probably different then the big ones on my shoulders, neck and back. The later is probably the myofacial type. I still believe they are related to a build up of fibrin in the muscles, but that is just my pet peeve! We all get to have a pet peeve, don't we? ;0)
hilltopperchick
hilltopperchick

Thanks for the links Jonsparky. I am really in a state of fog thanks to the pain meds. I wonder what we can do about those muscle "twitches." They are not painful but EXTREMELY annoying.

BTW, I could write a book on my pet peeves. ;)
PeaceN2You
PeaceN2You

I don't know what the source is for that article but knots that radiate pain are not fibromyalgia - they are myofascial tender points.

Can't believe everything that's posted on the web - including here :)
PeaceN2You
PeaceN2You

F**k it you can't even believe what I write - I meant "trigger points" not tender points. Tender points are what we have in fibromyalgia and they are a) not knots and b) don't radiate pain to other areas when pressed.
Jonsparky
Jonsparky

Here is an article on muscle twitching, I hope it helps.
http://www.fibromyalgia-symptoms.org/fibromyalgia_dysmen.html
deleted_user
deleted_user

Sorry Peace but could not help but LOL when reading your reply number 9 .. giggles gets confusing at times to keep these things seperate.

But I agree is hard to know what to believe sometimes but here is another article that may explain something.

Thanks Jon for sharing your info.


another site is

http://www.healthcentral.com/chronic-pain/fibromyalgia-279502-5.html

below is just a excerpt from the website above...

Tender Points

Tender points are used to help diagnosis fibromyalgia. They are extremely sensitive spots on the body that elicit pain when four kilograms (or about 10 lbs.) of pressure are applied. There are 18 specific tender points located at nine bilateral locations.

Tender points occur on both the right and left sides of the body at these nine locations:

(not listing due to the length of the article)

Trigger Points

A trigger point is a place on the body that, when pressure is applied, refers (or triggers) pain to another part of the body. The point itself may or may not be sensitive. Trigger points generally involve taut, ropy bands of muscle fibers. There may also be hard lumps or nodules in the area.

Trigger points are formed when acute trauma or repetitive microtrauma leads to the development of stress on muscle fibers. Although anyone can have trigger points, they are frequently associated with a form of chronic muscle pain called myofascial pain syndrome. Its not unusual for someone with fibromyalgia to also have MPS, which may be one of the reasons tender points and trigger points are often confused.


The most important thing is to know the difference of what is causing the knots because MFP and FM are 2 seperate conditions and treated differently.

Jon not sure on the fibrin stuff just know it is part of the blood clotting factors ... and believe they can test for issues with this with blood tests to see if a person has to little or too much of it. So not really sure what I think on this.

Part of me thinks that when any ground breaking new developements happen one or more of the major outlets such as Mayo Clinic or John Hopkins, ACR, Major fibro associations will be aware of the knowledges. Although I read other articles I try to keep more focused on these areas for updates on research and not saying other areas are right or wrong.

Is so much conflicting info sometimes makes my head spin.


Wishing everyone the best week they can have ...


take care
gentle hugs to all
Jonsparky
Jonsparky

"Not to beat a dead horse" but this is what I was referring to, regards to fibrin build up and FM, and MPS:
Hypercoagulation
The CFS/FM Plot Thickens
Melissa Kaplan, The Carousel Network News, 8(5), 2001
A simplified introduction into hypercoagulable state...

Research conducted by Dr. David Berg and others at Hemex Laboratories1 has found hypercoagulation to be a factor in many patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), myofascial pain syndrome (MPS), and other disorders such as osteonecrosis (bone loss due to inadequate blood supply), and fetal loss.

Hypercoagulation (thickened blood) results from fibrin being deposited in small blood vessels. Fibrin is the body's natural bandaid: strands of fibrin form across a defect (wound, tear) in the walls of blood vessels, forming a mesh that holds platelets and blood cells. This beneficial clotting of cellular matter and fibrin strands plugs the leak, so to speak, holding things together until the body starts to repair itself.

Fibrin production is the last stage in a complex clotting process. The process itself starts off with the release of thrombin which in turn results in the production of soluble fibrin monomer (SFM), a sticky protein that increases blood viscosity. This leads to the deposit of fibrin on the endothelial cells that line the wall of the blood vessels. Under the normal conditions, it takes only a single burst of thrombin to generate a large amount of SFM which in turns produces sufficient amounts of fibrin to clot the defect. Testing of many patients diagnosed with CFS, FM, MPS shows that the thrombin-SFM-fibrin process is not working properly. Instead of a single burst of thrombin producing the amount of SFM needed, the thrombin keeps being produced at low levels. Instead of clots being formed, however, the result is that blood becomes increasingly thickened. The body's own ability to thin blood and break up clots is impaired because the fibrin smothering the endothelial cells prevents those cells from releasing heparans.

you may have a long wait for mainstream medicine to catch up, that is fine, I prefer to explore new ideas, it is just me. The end result is all that matters... I have to feel that I am making progress with reversing whatever it is I havre, rather then just surrendering to it.
Some doctors think that these different syndromes are actually rooted in the same cause. I think that is one of the reasons there is an overlap, with the symptoms. I have tested positive for fibrin and hyper coagulation, so I am taking steps to clean this up. It is kind of the mopping up phase of the treatment. When one has over 20 years of built up fibrin in the cells, it may take a while.
deleted_user
deleted_user

This is Probably my Worst Area..

I Guess If I were you, I would get a Full Chest Xray, Just to Rule Out any other causes...Then once that is Cleared, I would Seek First a Massage Therapist, then a Chiro.

These Muscles Spasm Sooo Easily, and is So Painful. I get Spasms Thru my Entire left side of Chest, Shoulder, Blade, Arm..Punch thru to my Left Breast...It rarely Bothers my Right side, Mostly left...which of Course Freaks me cause at times the Pain can be Quite Intense.

Do You have Access in Your Area to a Heated Pool ? Between That, my Massages, and My Chiro Visits I am Able to keep those Muscles Pretty Loose..but this Spring when I got home from Texas I was a MESS..and it took several Visits to each to get those Muscles relaxed...My Chiro could Not Adjust me the first time I went in, I had to see my Massage therapist first..

When he Adjusted me I about came UP Off the table, later that Night I Hurt SO bad I Thought "OMG I am Gonna have to go to the ER"..But I made it thru, and the Next day I was Noticeably Better, and by the Next day I was Fine...Thankfully..but I did have to keep going back thru the Month of June...Muscles were in FULL Spasm.

It is Vital that you Find a Real Good Massage Therapist... this is No Fluff Massage..It Hurts, and If it has been a long time then you are gonna hurt for a day or so After, make Sure to HYDRATE Well..as You will also Feel a Bit Sick...this is Normal..and gets less and less with each Treatment.

I would Not see a Chiro til you have had at least 1 Light massage..or been in a Heated Pool a few times, just Lightly Moving Your Arms back & Forth for awhile..

When you Start this Process, If You are In alot of pain, this is Gonna take a bit of Time, and a Bit more Pain..but then it Quickly Starts to back Off..and it's Like "WoW" !!

I do the Pool Therapy...It Started in PT...and What a Significant Difference That Made in my Over All Pain levels...Helped me to Restrengthen Tight WEAK Muscles..But it is Something I have to Keep Up with or in NO Time at all everything is Bunched Up Again...Like when I go to Texas for Several Months, I Receive NO Therapies down there..No hands on Therapies, No Pool.

I Hope you can get this Worked thru..

Myofascial Pain Is BAD Pain..Radiates..but Can be Backed off thru Relaxation, Pool, Massage Therapies, and a Good Chiro..Plus you can do Therapies on Your own at Home..but If you are in a Bad Place Now I would at least Start these therapies with Help.
deleted_user
deleted_user

anyone with muscle spasms instead of muscle relaxers, i swear by botox given by the right type of practitioner.( in the back)
Caroline04
Caroline04

People diagnosed with FMS, most likely primary fibromyalgia, often have MPS as well. FMS is biochemical and MPS is neuromuscular. Many drs. lump both of these conditions together and separating the two is sometimes difficult in the beginning when you are diagnosed with both.

I think trigger points can be more painful than the fibro. They cause radiating pain and can often cascade into another muscle group. They can prevent the fascia from gliding freely and can even shut (splint) down a muscle, forcing another to "take over". A muscle can then become weakened.

It is important to address trigger points, especially when your treatment plan involves exercise. A good massage therapist, a physical therapist, maybe a chiropractor can help if you are unable to use the press and release method. Some people have a husband or a friend help if it cannot be reached or even use a tennis ball between the TrP and the wall. Pesky ones may need to be injected to get some relief.