Divorce after Twenty years together Community Group
I want to start something for those of us that were married for a long long time. I think that we face a little different issues than those who were dating for a few years or even married for shorter period of time. Being married for so long we have older children some have grandkids dealing with teenagers and their reaction to the divorice empty nesters dating after 40...
It all boils down to money
SendInTheClowns
As I have posted previously, when my STBX informed me a little over a month ago that he wants a divorce, it brought up a lot of memories and emotions. Since I had considered divorce a few times in the past ten years, one of the feelings was relief that I wouldn't have to be the "bad" guy. I wouldn't have to be the one to end the marriage and then add insult to injury by demanding half his pension and possibly spousal maintenance--he would get to be the one to offer it. I honestly thought it would be a fairly simple, uncomplicated process, at least as far as the legal aspects. The children are grown and the only thing of value we have is our house, which is in serious need of repair and has lost a lot of its value in this economy.
We were planning to go with one of the alternative divorce options where we figure out how we're dividing things up, go to a mediator-attorney who writes up the agreement, we each hire a lawyer to peruse the document and then one of the lawyers files for us. No court battles. No long, drawn out discussions about the value of Grandma's china versus the barbcue grill and all that nonsense. After calling a few attorneys who work with alternative divorce, I'm being advised that our divorce may not be as simple and clear-cut as the two of us are thinking. But my STBX has a mediator all lined up and wants to jump right in NOW. He asks me EVERY SINGLE DAY if I've talked to the guy or if I've called any lawyers or done this or done that and it's really starting to piss me off! I told him that "his" mediator is going to send me a list of attorneys who are "mediation friendly" and I want to consult one of them before we make the first appointment. He told me that wasn't the order the events were supposed to take place in, that the individual attorney is supposed to come AFTER we draft the agreement. I told him I have the right to consult an attorney any time during the process and how are we supposed to even know what we're trying to agree on if neither of us know our rights and responsibilities. He still didn't understand what we could possibly disagree over.
Then I got to be the "bad guy" and mention spousal support. He makes almost twice my income and while I pay all of my own personal expenses, he pays the mortgage, utilities, property taxes and carries me on his medical plan at work. We had both agreed when we had children that I would stay home and raise them. I gave up 17 years of building up my career and wage level, among other things.
If I could afford to, I would just pack up the things that are truly "mine" and leave. As far as I'm concerned, he could keep the house, his pension, and whatever other money he has saved and may it make him happy. Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way. Our biggest problem (other than lack of communication) has always been money. We were trying to live on one income with four kids. We had gotten ourselves involved in a "church" where we were expected to tithe 10% of our Gross income and my husband was socking as much money as he could into his 401k for the future. We had enough for the tithe (of course) and basic needs, but when it came to the "extras"....that's where we struggled. And by "extras", I mean everything my husband didn't budget for: Christmas, birthdays, car and home repairs, clothing, coats, shoes, school supplies. I could never get him to understand that just because we didn't put those things in our budget, they still needed to be purchased. He didn't like thinking that he wasn't a good provider, so he would always tell me that he made "enough" money and we shouldn't use credit cards. But when there's 4 inches of snow on the ground, the kids don't have boots to walk to school in and payday is two weeks away, some still has to make sure they have what they need. (Yes, we did plenty of garage sales and hand-me-downs and by the time my kids got the "latest" toy or electronic, several newer models had been released.)
So little by little, without my husband's permission, the credit card became our second source of income. I knew he would be angry and forbid me to use credit, so I avoided mentioning it to him. I also was afraid to tell him because I was afraid of the rejection and loss of his love. No amount of explaining about the realities of his income not being enough to cover expenses had any impact. He kept insisting he made "good" money and that I spent too much. I really didn't know what else to do. I'll admit that not everything I purchased was always strictly necessary. There were occasional splurges for Christmas or birthdays that I could have avoided--but always for him or the kids. And I know that "not mentioning" things is the same as lying. And every time I used those cards, even for the most essential of items, I felt guilty. Ultimately over a number of years, as these things always do, the balance got out of hand and my husband found out. He was furious and told me I'd better "do something", but never gave me any suggestions as to what to do. I tried to handle it on my own and get out of the mess myself without screwing up his credit score (since all the cards were in my name only). Unfortunately I got some bad advice from friends and ended up going to one of those debt management services who relieved me of about $3,000 and didn't make any payments to the cards, which with late fees and escalating interest rates, caused my debt to double to $80K in about a year. I considered bankruptcy, but then I lost my job and couldn't afford to do it! I felt so foolish and ashamed of all my misguided choices, not to mention irresponsible and deceitful.
Finally my STBX couldn't stand it any longer (because the credit card companies deserved to be paid) and took out a home equity loan, settled my accounts for less than I owed and has never let me hear the end of it. So, "my debt" is the reason we never got to remodel our kitchen. "My debt" is the reason our house has fallen into disrepair. "My debt" is the reason our kids didn't go to college. "My debt" is the reason for just about anything that goes wrong in the world. I haven't used credit cards in years now and have finally paid off the balance on the one card I kept from the fiasco, but everything I buy is with "someone else's money" according to him. I was supposed to pay the home equity loan back myself, but I was too busy spending the money I earned buying those "extras" that weren't in the budget. Eventually he refinanced and rolled the home equity loan into the new mortgage. And now, "my debt" is the reason we don't have as much equity in the house and will probably barely break even on the sale with all that will need to be put in to repair it.
So last night I told him that I was tired of him pushing me about the divorce. He made this decision without discussing it with me and it was taking me a little while to process and get things together. I asked him again what the hurry was since our "separation" has dragged on for 10 years already, which I pointed out had also been a decision he made on his own without discussing it with me. That's when he informed me that he had warned me at some point back then that if the spending didn't stop, something "bad" was going to happen. He "apologized" if I hadn't understood his reasoning. Once again, "my debt" rears its ugly head.
So, there it is. In truth, I don't want anything from him. I did screw up with the money. I feel like I should let him have the house since whatever little profit there may be should rightfully belong to him anyway. I "spent" all my share racking up credit card bills that he had to pay for. It doesn't matter that 99% of it was for the kids. My deceit negates my rights. And as far as his 401k, he has always been worried about retirement and not having enough to live on. I've never been worried about it. I've always felt God would provide a way. I've always resented how intent he was on putting money away for the future when we needed it in the "present". Now I feel like I'm robbing him of his security. I feel like he thinks I'm going to fritter away his hard-earned nest egg buying God knows what.
I know that legally I have a "right" to certain things, but I feel like I already got "my share" of marital property when he paid off my debt. I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling "indebted" to him.
We were planning to go with one of the alternative divorce options where we figure out how we're dividing things up, go to a mediator-attorney who writes up the agreement, we each hire a lawyer to peruse the document and then one of the lawyers files for us. No court battles. No long, drawn out discussions about the value of Grandma's china versus the barbcue grill and all that nonsense. After calling a few attorneys who work with alternative divorce, I'm being advised that our divorce may not be as simple and clear-cut as the two of us are thinking. But my STBX has a mediator all lined up and wants to jump right in NOW. He asks me EVERY SINGLE DAY if I've talked to the guy or if I've called any lawyers or done this or done that and it's really starting to piss me off! I told him that "his" mediator is going to send me a list of attorneys who are "mediation friendly" and I want to consult one of them before we make the first appointment. He told me that wasn't the order the events were supposed to take place in, that the individual attorney is supposed to come AFTER we draft the agreement. I told him I have the right to consult an attorney any time during the process and how are we supposed to even know what we're trying to agree on if neither of us know our rights and responsibilities. He still didn't understand what we could possibly disagree over.
Then I got to be the "bad guy" and mention spousal support. He makes almost twice my income and while I pay all of my own personal expenses, he pays the mortgage, utilities, property taxes and carries me on his medical plan at work. We had both agreed when we had children that I would stay home and raise them. I gave up 17 years of building up my career and wage level, among other things.
If I could afford to, I would just pack up the things that are truly "mine" and leave. As far as I'm concerned, he could keep the house, his pension, and whatever other money he has saved and may it make him happy. Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way. Our biggest problem (other than lack of communication) has always been money. We were trying to live on one income with four kids. We had gotten ourselves involved in a "church" where we were expected to tithe 10% of our Gross income and my husband was socking as much money as he could into his 401k for the future. We had enough for the tithe (of course) and basic needs, but when it came to the "extras"....that's where we struggled. And by "extras", I mean everything my husband didn't budget for: Christmas, birthdays, car and home repairs, clothing, coats, shoes, school supplies. I could never get him to understand that just because we didn't put those things in our budget, they still needed to be purchased. He didn't like thinking that he wasn't a good provider, so he would always tell me that he made "enough" money and we shouldn't use credit cards. But when there's 4 inches of snow on the ground, the kids don't have boots to walk to school in and payday is two weeks away, some still has to make sure they have what they need. (Yes, we did plenty of garage sales and hand-me-downs and by the time my kids got the "latest" toy or electronic, several newer models had been released.)
So little by little, without my husband's permission, the credit card became our second source of income. I knew he would be angry and forbid me to use credit, so I avoided mentioning it to him. I also was afraid to tell him because I was afraid of the rejection and loss of his love. No amount of explaining about the realities of his income not being enough to cover expenses had any impact. He kept insisting he made "good" money and that I spent too much. I really didn't know what else to do. I'll admit that not everything I purchased was always strictly necessary. There were occasional splurges for Christmas or birthdays that I could have avoided--but always for him or the kids. And I know that "not mentioning" things is the same as lying. And every time I used those cards, even for the most essential of items, I felt guilty. Ultimately over a number of years, as these things always do, the balance got out of hand and my husband found out. He was furious and told me I'd better "do something", but never gave me any suggestions as to what to do. I tried to handle it on my own and get out of the mess myself without screwing up his credit score (since all the cards were in my name only). Unfortunately I got some bad advice from friends and ended up going to one of those debt management services who relieved me of about $3,000 and didn't make any payments to the cards, which with late fees and escalating interest rates, caused my debt to double to $80K in about a year. I considered bankruptcy, but then I lost my job and couldn't afford to do it! I felt so foolish and ashamed of all my misguided choices, not to mention irresponsible and deceitful.
Finally my STBX couldn't stand it any longer (because the credit card companies deserved to be paid) and took out a home equity loan, settled my accounts for less than I owed and has never let me hear the end of it. So, "my debt" is the reason we never got to remodel our kitchen. "My debt" is the reason our house has fallen into disrepair. "My debt" is the reason our kids didn't go to college. "My debt" is the reason for just about anything that goes wrong in the world. I haven't used credit cards in years now and have finally paid off the balance on the one card I kept from the fiasco, but everything I buy is with "someone else's money" according to him. I was supposed to pay the home equity loan back myself, but I was too busy spending the money I earned buying those "extras" that weren't in the budget. Eventually he refinanced and rolled the home equity loan into the new mortgage. And now, "my debt" is the reason we don't have as much equity in the house and will probably barely break even on the sale with all that will need to be put in to repair it.
So last night I told him that I was tired of him pushing me about the divorce. He made this decision without discussing it with me and it was taking me a little while to process and get things together. I asked him again what the hurry was since our "separation" has dragged on for 10 years already, which I pointed out had also been a decision he made on his own without discussing it with me. That's when he informed me that he had warned me at some point back then that if the spending didn't stop, something "bad" was going to happen. He "apologized" if I hadn't understood his reasoning. Once again, "my debt" rears its ugly head.
So, there it is. In truth, I don't want anything from him. I did screw up with the money. I feel like I should let him have the house since whatever little profit there may be should rightfully belong to him anyway. I "spent" all my share racking up credit card bills that he had to pay for. It doesn't matter that 99% of it was for the kids. My deceit negates my rights. And as far as his 401k, he has always been worried about retirement and not having enough to live on. I've never been worried about it. I've always felt God would provide a way. I've always resented how intent he was on putting money away for the future when we needed it in the "present". Now I feel like I'm robbing him of his security. I feel like he thinks I'm going to fritter away his hard-earned nest egg buying God knows what.
I know that legally I have a "right" to certain things, but I feel like I already got "my share" of marital property when he paid off my debt. I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling "indebted" to him.
Even considering that yes, the lawyer would like you to retain them, I can still see the truth in this statement. The stronger one will have more in them to demand things or wait the other out. The weaker one may be more agreeable perhaps just repeating marital patterns. Plus the mediator doesn't really care if either parties best interest are being served, their job is to advise of the laws, rights, etc but also to get to an agreement. I am not against mediation but be careful & do research. I actually thought we were going to be able to mediate our divorce and I now believe that would have never been possible. Don't agree to anything you aren't comfortable with! Hugs!
In many states (and IL may be one of them) if you are unable to reach a settlement on your own, the court may order you into mediation. If you are unable to mediate a settlement then your next step is to go to court where a judge will decide everything.
My case is an example of "good intentions gone to Hell." We had one session with a mediator early on in which the now-X REFUSED to make a full financial disclosure. More than a year later, we had to go to court-ordered mediation; the now-X's attorney was such an uncompromising b*tch, the mediator gave up and walked out. FINALLY at the absolute 11th hour, I took a marked up copy of an earlier settlement proposal with me and banged on the now-X's door one evening -- DETERMINED to stay there all night if necessary to get him to sign it. That was a Thursday -- we were scheduled to go to trial on Monday. Guess what? He signed. (Major sigh of relief)
We still had to go to court on Monday because it was too late to cancel the trial date, but since he had signed the agreement, all the judge did was "enter it into the court record" and it was a done deal.
It took a GARGANTUAN AMOUNT of strength and tenacity to hang in there as long as I did and believe me, there were a few times when I was sooo sick of it all I was ready to fold. But each time, my attorney would insist that I "sleep on it" and get back to her the next day. I cannot thank that woman enough for sticking with me. In the end I got everything I needed and wanted to start my New Life WITHOUT old Ebenezer Scrooge!
You CAN and WILL do this and we are all here to help you get through it. If I were you, I would just put my earplugs in and go retain an attorney. Once you file for divorce, the game is on and you will have the upper hand. You CANNOT NEGOTIATE WITH A TERRORIST -- and believe me, your stbx is a terrorist!
Big hugs coming your way my friend. xoxo
In the beginning, my husband and I went to a mediator (x picked him out and set it up)and I signed an agreement. The man I loved for 27 years wouldn't cheat me (or cheat ON me) would he?? Big mistake.
A friend of mine called an attorney for me and made an appointment-I thought I didn't really need one-this was going to be amicable (really I thought he'd come to his senses because I loved him more than anything). BEST thing that ever happened. X has done a thousand things I never thought him capable of.
It can be expensive, but I am worried that you are not thinking clearly (who was at this point?) Please get an attorney and get what you are entitled to/need. All he has paid will come out in the wash.
Sounds too familiar to me. He has succeeded in making you feel insecure and worthless. Believe me, you are not. YOU contributed plenty to the marriage, your STBX didn't recognize worth and neither do you. Stand up and be counted. Trust me, he is watching out for himself. We all see ourselves or someone close to us in your description of the marriage. Take advantage of our experience, PROTECT yourself.
Most importantly, recite this mantra..."I am worth it", because "You Are".