Divorce after Twenty years together Community Group
I want to start something for those of us that were married for a long long time. I think that we face a little different issues than those who were dating for a few years or even married for shorter period of time. Being married for so long we have older children some have grandkids dealing with teenagers and their reaction to the divorice empty nesters dating after 40...
As I have posted previously, when my STBX informed me a little over a month ago that he wants a divorce, it brought up a lot of memories and emotions. Since I had considered divorce a few times in the past ten years, one of the feelings was relief that I wouldn't have to be the "bad" guy. I wouldn't have to be the one to end the marriage and then add insult to injury by demanding half his pension and possibly spousal maintenance--he would get to be the one to offer it. I honestly thought it would be a fairly simple, uncomplicated process, at least as far as the legal aspects. The children are grown and the only thing of value we have is our house, which is in serious need of repair and has lost a lot of its value in this economy.
We were planning to go with one of the alternative divorce options where we figure out how we're dividing things up, go to a mediator-attorney who writes up the agreement, we each hire a lawyer to peruse the document and then one of the lawyers files for us. No court battles. No long, drawn out discussions about the value of Grandma's china versus the barbcue grill and all that nonsense. After calling a few attorneys who work with alternative divorce, I'm being advised that our divorce may not be as simple and clear-cut as the two of us are thinking. But my STBX has a mediator all lined up and wants to jump right in NOW. He asks me EVERY SINGLE DAY if I've talked to the guy or if I've called any lawyers or done this or done that and it's really starting to piss me off! I told him that "his" mediator is going to send me a list of attorneys who are "mediation friendly" and I want to consult one of them before we make the first appointment. He told me that wasn't the order the events were supposed to take place in, that the individual attorney is supposed to come AFTER we draft the agreement. I told him I have the right to consult an attorney any time during the process and how are we supposed to even know what we're trying to agree on if neither of us know our rights and responsibilities. He still didn't understand what we could possibly disagree over.
Then I got to be the "bad guy" and mention spousal support. He makes almost twice my income and while I pay all of my own personal expenses, he pays the mortgage, utilities, property taxes and carries me on his medical plan at work. We had both agreed when we had children that I would stay home and raise them. I gave up 17 years of building up my career and wage level, among other things.
If I could afford to, I would just pack up the things that are truly "mine" and leave. As far as I'm concerned, he could keep the house, his pension, and whatever other money he has saved and may it make him happy. Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way. Our biggest problem (other than lack of communication) has always been money. We were trying to live on one income with four kids. We had gotten ourselves involved in a "church" where we were expected to tithe 10% of our Gross income and my husband was socking as much money as he could into his 401k for the future. We had enough for the tithe (of course) and basic needs, but when it came to the "extras"....that's where we struggled. And by "extras", I mean everything my husband didn't budget for: Christmas, birthdays, car and home repairs, clothing, coats, shoes, school supplies. I could never get him to understand that just because we didn't put those things in our budget, they still needed to be purchased. He didn't like thinking that he wasn't a good provider, so he would always tell me that he made "enough" money and we shouldn't use credit cards. But when there's 4 inches of snow on the ground, the kids don't have boots to walk to school in and payday is two weeks away, some still has to make sure they have what they need. (Yes, we did plenty of garage sales and hand-me-downs and by the time my kids got the "latest" toy or electronic, several newer models had been released.)
So little by little, without my husband's permission, the credit card became our second source of income. I knew he would be angry and forbid me to use credit, so I avoided mentioning it to him. I also was afraid to tell him because I was afraid of the rejection and loss of his love. No amount of explaining about the realities of his income not being enough to cover expenses had any impact. He kept insisting he made "good" money and that I spent too much. I really didn't know what else to do. I'll admit that not everything I purchased was always strictly necessary. There were occasional splurges for Christmas or birthdays that I could have avoided--but always for him or the kids. And I know that "not mentioning" things is the same as lying. And every time I used those cards, even for the most essential of items, I felt guilty. Ultimately over a number of years, as these things always do, the balance got out of hand and my husband found out. He was furious and told me I'd better "do something", but never gave me any suggestions as to what to do. I tried to handle it on my own and get out of the mess myself without screwing up his credit score (since all the cards were in my name only). Unfortunately I got some bad advice from friends and ended up going to one of those debt management services who relieved me of about $3,000 and didn't make any payments to the cards, which with late fees and escalating interest rates, caused my debt to double to $80K in about a year. I considered bankruptcy, but then I lost my job and couldn't afford to do it! I felt so foolish and ashamed of all my misguided choices, not to mention irresponsible and deceitful.
Finally my STBX couldn't stand it any longer (because the credit card companies deserved to be paid) and took out a home equity loan, settled my accounts for less than I owed and has never let me hear the end of it. So, "my debt" is the reason we never got to remodel our kitchen. "My debt" is the reason our house has fallen into disrepair. "My debt" is the reason our kids didn't go to college. "My debt" is the reason for just about anything that goes wrong in the world. I haven't used credit cards in years now and have finally paid off the balance on the one card I kept from the fiasco, but everything I buy is with "someone else's money" according to him. I was supposed to pay the home equity loan back myself, but I was too busy spending the money I earned buying those "extras" that weren't in the budget. Eventually he refinanced and rolled the home equity loan into the new mortgage. And now, "my debt" is the reason we don't have as much equity in the house and will probably barely break even on the sale with all that will need to be put in to repair it.
So last night I told him that I was tired of him pushing me about the divorce. He made this decision without discussing it with me and it was taking me a little while to process and get things together. I asked him again what the hurry was since our "separation" has dragged on for 10 years already, which I pointed out had also been a decision he made on his own without discussing it with me. That's when he informed me that he had warned me at some point back then that if the spending didn't stop, something "bad" was going to happen. He "apologized" if I hadn't understood his reasoning. Once again, "my debt" rears its ugly head.
So, there it is. In truth, I don't want anything from him. I did screw up with the money. I feel like I should let him have the house since whatever little profit there may be should rightfully belong to him anyway. I "spent" all my share racking up credit card bills that he had to pay for. It doesn't matter that 99% of it was for the kids. My deceit negates my rights. And as far as his 401k, he has always been worried about retirement and not having enough to live on. I've never been worried about it. I've always felt God would provide a way. I've always resented how intent he was on putting money away for the future when we needed it in the "present". Now I feel like I'm robbing him of his security. I feel like he thinks I'm going to fritter away his hard-earned nest egg buying God knows what.
I know that legally I have a "right" to certain things, but I feel like I already got "my share" of marital property when he paid off my debt. I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling "indebted" to him.
We were planning to go with one of the alternative divorce options where we figure out how we're dividing things up, go to a mediator-attorney who writes up the agreement, we each hire a lawyer to peruse the document and then one of the lawyers files for us. No court battles. No long, drawn out discussions about the value of Grandma's china versus the barbcue grill and all that nonsense. After calling a few attorneys who work with alternative divorce, I'm being advised that our divorce may not be as simple and clear-cut as the two of us are thinking. But my STBX has a mediator all lined up and wants to jump right in NOW. He asks me EVERY SINGLE DAY if I've talked to the guy or if I've called any lawyers or done this or done that and it's really starting to piss me off! I told him that "his" mediator is going to send me a list of attorneys who are "mediation friendly" and I want to consult one of them before we make the first appointment. He told me that wasn't the order the events were supposed to take place in, that the individual attorney is supposed to come AFTER we draft the agreement. I told him I have the right to consult an attorney any time during the process and how are we supposed to even know what we're trying to agree on if neither of us know our rights and responsibilities. He still didn't understand what we could possibly disagree over.
Then I got to be the "bad guy" and mention spousal support. He makes almost twice my income and while I pay all of my own personal expenses, he pays the mortgage, utilities, property taxes and carries me on his medical plan at work. We had both agreed when we had children that I would stay home and raise them. I gave up 17 years of building up my career and wage level, among other things.
If I could afford to, I would just pack up the things that are truly "mine" and leave. As far as I'm concerned, he could keep the house, his pension, and whatever other money he has saved and may it make him happy. Unfortunately, life doesn't work that way. Our biggest problem (other than lack of communication) has always been money. We were trying to live on one income with four kids. We had gotten ourselves involved in a "church" where we were expected to tithe 10% of our Gross income and my husband was socking as much money as he could into his 401k for the future. We had enough for the tithe (of course) and basic needs, but when it came to the "extras"....that's where we struggled. And by "extras", I mean everything my husband didn't budget for: Christmas, birthdays, car and home repairs, clothing, coats, shoes, school supplies. I could never get him to understand that just because we didn't put those things in our budget, they still needed to be purchased. He didn't like thinking that he wasn't a good provider, so he would always tell me that he made "enough" money and we shouldn't use credit cards. But when there's 4 inches of snow on the ground, the kids don't have boots to walk to school in and payday is two weeks away, some still has to make sure they have what they need. (Yes, we did plenty of garage sales and hand-me-downs and by the time my kids got the "latest" toy or electronic, several newer models had been released.)
So little by little, without my husband's permission, the credit card became our second source of income. I knew he would be angry and forbid me to use credit, so I avoided mentioning it to him. I also was afraid to tell him because I was afraid of the rejection and loss of his love. No amount of explaining about the realities of his income not being enough to cover expenses had any impact. He kept insisting he made "good" money and that I spent too much. I really didn't know what else to do. I'll admit that not everything I purchased was always strictly necessary. There were occasional splurges for Christmas or birthdays that I could have avoided--but always for him or the kids. And I know that "not mentioning" things is the same as lying. And every time I used those cards, even for the most essential of items, I felt guilty. Ultimately over a number of years, as these things always do, the balance got out of hand and my husband found out. He was furious and told me I'd better "do something", but never gave me any suggestions as to what to do. I tried to handle it on my own and get out of the mess myself without screwing up his credit score (since all the cards were in my name only). Unfortunately I got some bad advice from friends and ended up going to one of those debt management services who relieved me of about $3,000 and didn't make any payments to the cards, which with late fees and escalating interest rates, caused my debt to double to $80K in about a year. I considered bankruptcy, but then I lost my job and couldn't afford to do it! I felt so foolish and ashamed of all my misguided choices, not to mention irresponsible and deceitful.
Finally my STBX couldn't stand it any longer (because the credit card companies deserved to be paid) and took out a home equity loan, settled my accounts for less than I owed and has never let me hear the end of it. So, "my debt" is the reason we never got to remodel our kitchen. "My debt" is the reason our house has fallen into disrepair. "My debt" is the reason our kids didn't go to college. "My debt" is the reason for just about anything that goes wrong in the world. I haven't used credit cards in years now and have finally paid off the balance on the one card I kept from the fiasco, but everything I buy is with "someone else's money" according to him. I was supposed to pay the home equity loan back myself, but I was too busy spending the money I earned buying those "extras" that weren't in the budget. Eventually he refinanced and rolled the home equity loan into the new mortgage. And now, "my debt" is the reason we don't have as much equity in the house and will probably barely break even on the sale with all that will need to be put in to repair it.
So last night I told him that I was tired of him pushing me about the divorce. He made this decision without discussing it with me and it was taking me a little while to process and get things together. I asked him again what the hurry was since our "separation" has dragged on for 10 years already, which I pointed out had also been a decision he made on his own without discussing it with me. That's when he informed me that he had warned me at some point back then that if the spending didn't stop, something "bad" was going to happen. He "apologized" if I hadn't understood his reasoning. Once again, "my debt" rears its ugly head.
So, there it is. In truth, I don't want anything from him. I did screw up with the money. I feel like I should let him have the house since whatever little profit there may be should rightfully belong to him anyway. I "spent" all my share racking up credit card bills that he had to pay for. It doesn't matter that 99% of it was for the kids. My deceit negates my rights. And as far as his 401k, he has always been worried about retirement and not having enough to live on. I've never been worried about it. I've always felt God would provide a way. I've always resented how intent he was on putting money away for the future when we needed it in the "present". Now I feel like I'm robbing him of his security. I feel like he thinks I'm going to fritter away his hard-earned nest egg buying God knows what.
I know that legally I have a "right" to certain things, but I feel like I already got "my share" of marital property when he paid off my debt. I don't want to live the rest of my life feeling "indebted" to him.
Going over, toting up what was spent by whom for what during the course of your marriage is crazy! Deal with the HERE and NOW. Asking for a MINIMUM of 50% of the assets and his retirement (or 401k or whatever) is only fair. Alimony or spousal support is also something you should be entitled to after a marriage of this tenure.
STANDING UP for yourself and demanding your FAIR SHARE does NOT make you the "bad guy" -- nor does being the one to say "Enough is enough!" and being the one to file for divorce. IMO it makes you THE SMART GUY!
So please STOP with this line of "stinkin' thinkin'" my dear. What's done is done. Sounds to me like your self-esteem needs some major work! Stick around and you will get some major boosting from the old timers here. xoxox
One more thing, SendIntheClowns -- You wrote: "I wouldn't have to be the one to end the marriage and then add insult to injury by demanding half his pension and possibly spousal maintenance--he would get to be the one to offer it."
I am shaking my head on THAT line of thinking. Can't think of a single instance where a husband OFFERED either of those two things when going through divorce. For some odd reason, when it happens, they suddenly think ALL THE MARITAL ASSETS ARE THEIRS. Major symptom of HeadUptheAssItis for sure.
Illinois is an Equitable Distribution State which means you may very well be entitled to MORE than 50% of the marital assets. Look up divorce law in your state and you will find all the criteria which goes into determining what is "fair." Educate yourself to empower yourself. Please don't shortchange yourself -- this is YOUR FUTURE we are talking about here.
xoxox
(((HUGS)))
I had a very wise woman tell me that I had earned half of those assets I was ready to walk away from. Years of not working, canning all our vegetables for the coming year. Robbing peter to pay paul. I'm quite good at that and there is no way the ex could ever pay for the services I provided while we were married. Add up painter, cook, cleaning, child care, I traded all the cars or trucks and negoiated the sale and purchase of our home with each move. That doesn't even add up the care of the horses he insisted we have. Yes, I learned to drive truck and trailer with a load of horses in the back and kids in the truck. I had worth in our marriage even though I didn't work. I saved more than I could earn by not working. There were times when I lived 7 miles from town and only had half a tank of gas for the week and three dollars for milk and bread. The ex was working out of town. Hell yeah I earned that money I walked away with.
So you sit and think about all you have done for your family. Find your worth. That debt was because your H didn't allow for the budget to pay for the things your children needed. He was too busy taking care of the church, his retirement to worry about what his children needed right then and there. Yard sales and second hand stores....you saved him a lot of money. That retirement acct. should be half yours for all that you did save him and the struggle you had to give your kids what he wouldn't budget for.
Now you get yourself to a good atty. and see just what you are entitled to have and that debt. is long gone and not a part of what you should have. Find your worth because you have no idea what you are worth and I'll tell you that your worth is equal to or more than his. I will get off my soapbox now and will add I hate to see anyone not know just what they are worth.
In the early days of our marriage, my ex didn't allow me any spending money. Fortunately, someone else convinced him I had to have a little. We had a very low income when my girls were small. He chose to put up a shed and pay for a holiday without the kids rather than heat our home. Meanwhile, I saved every cent of the child allowance and worked a small part-time job to put carpet and curtains in their bedroom and buy warm bedding. Eventually, he found a better-paying job. Once again, any extra money went into superannuation or savings which put us on a very strict budget. Eventually, we had our own business. I worked in the business doing the bookwork and occasional hands-on in sales and I ran our home single-handedly. He hardly lifted a finger at home until I developed fibromyalgia in 1999. Even then, he wouldn't do anything in the house. He took on the mowing and gardening only. I had to fit a cleaning lady into the budget. Like you, with money building up in savings, I struggled to make ends meet with the money I was allowed each month. Every now and then, he'd break out. He bought an investment house without consulting me - just presented me with the contract!! He bought himself a brand new motor bike without consulting me. When I wanted a new sewing machine, I had to budget for it. Etc etc, I could go on for the length of a long novel, but I think that'll be enough to show that I know what you went through.
When I left my ex, I was determined to get half of that money in super and savings. I deserved it.
Your ex has been a total AH as far as I"m concerned. You did what you had to do to make ends meet and provide for your kids. He neglected his responsibility of care. In fact, I think withholding money like that (and the attitude that came with it in the case of my ex) is a form of emotional abuse. I think you did the best you knew how in a bad situation. Please forgive yourself and choose to do the best again.
You ARE entitled to half of the money he socked away when he should have been allowing more of it for daily needs. I say "Go get it".
love and hugs
kamary
You also have a home equity loan and if you owe more than the house is worth, one of you can not just "keep" it. Nor is it yours to give to him, because in reality you don't own it, the mortgage holder does. The house is in both your names, and any debt first mortgage or 2nd, he is responsible for also. Too bad for him I say.
I see that you feel that this is all your fault, the debt is all yours and you want to own it and have been admonished and blamed by him for years that it is your fault. Get out that mode, get into divorce mode and find a lawyer to represent you. Stop beating yourself up about the debt. You have had enough you took the blame for. You can not change it, but you can not just lay down and say run me over stbx. You may have to declare bankruptcy, and you neither of you will get the house. My guess he thinks you should do that after the divorce, not him. I know you can do this, so start working on finding a lawyer. AND I want to add this, stop the guilt, stop thinking that if he makes all that much more than you, you should not receive any of it cause you THINK you rang up the debt. THAT is what he is afraid of, because he got legal advice, and he probably is going to be paying you.
My guess is that he is pressuring you to go to mediation before you hire a lawyer, because he thinks that this will make it easy to just bing bing the paperwork, and get divorced. Do not listen to that. Not going to happen and you still have to hire a lawyer. They all think that they can do the do it yourself divorce. I am one of the few people that went to mediation with my stbx before we had lawyers. I did it because the lawyer I had not hired, but was behind the scenes, my lawyer said you are a trained negotiator, and go see what he is offering.. and in my case it was now all his money he was offering me. I of course hired my lawyer. Don't waste the time or money on mediating something that may not be legal. I probably am not going to be the first one to tell you also, stop talking to him about the money side. Get a lawyer and get over any idea that this is all your debt.. and lawyer have heard it all, do not feel guilty or feel that you deserve to be treated this way. Long pattern of that, by you so I am going to add, please get a therapist. Do it while you are on his insurance, which not to scare you but to prod you, that you will not have either and have to pay for..and another reason to think ALIMONY. HUGS
RE: Finally my STBX couldn't stand it any longer (because the credit card companies deserved to be paid) and took out a home equity loan, settled my accounts for less than I owed and has never let me hear the end of it.
and then:
Eventually he refinanced and rolled the home equity loan into the new mortgage. And now, "my debt" is the reason we don't have as much equity in the house and will probably barely break even on the sale with all that will need to be put in to repair it.
He is hanging that he paid those off also, over your head, and I know that is not going to be "her" fault or her debt in a divorce, or that the equity was used to pay HER debt. Because he agreed to it, and it was done. Good, less issues to deal with if the CC is paid. IF he did negotiate a deal and paid so much on the dollar for the debt, it does a number on your credit though.
The ole we saved my income or part of it, and lived on yours is common ploy in divorce. My ex too, all the big cash in " his" investments accounts became only his money in divorce, in his mind. Funny how they have these memory lapses. half out of my house! The mindset that you do not deserve any maintenance or a cash settlement or both, is only an ex making you feel guilty or brainwashing you. OR the too bad you don't make as much as me plan. As my lawyer pointed out, he would not be where he is today without you. You may have not earned as much, but you sure the heck helped accumulate it all.
Please anyone in long term marriage and divorce, do not listen to any ideas that you can do it yourself or with the spouse. Divorce is about compromise, and if you could do that, you might not be getting divorced. Most us getting alimony or maintenance will tell you, that a lawyer was key to that. I get alimony a over a long time that equals a lot of money when you add the years up. I was cash poor at the time I hired a lawyer.. but in the end his legal bill was a small portion of hundreds of thousands I gained in alimony, and I bought him out of the house, got half his pension and half of all our investments, 401ks etc. I KNOW not all have that, and I have empathy to those who do not have assets. This is a big deal, and do not let depression or anger get in the way of what for most of you, the largest deal you will ever do your own. I also know thatsendinclowns suffers from depression. That can be huge in divorce, you can't or will not fight back. Get a lawyer and a therapist. HUGS
Unfortunately, the mediator was MY brilliant idea when I thought the house and retirement were the only issues. I didn't think I was eligible for alimony because I do have a decent job. But then I started thinking about him living comfortably and me scraping by after taking what amounts to a huge pay cut since I'll have to pay for a lot of things I haven't been paying for up until now. I'm especially concerned about the medical benefits. He works for a huge multi-national company. I work for a small company where the employees shoulder a higher share of health care costs, with higher premiums, higher co-pays, higher deductibles, higher out of pocket, and no dental. The STBX had already figured on giving me half the house and retirement. The alimony took him by surprise as it did me. My STBX is an a**hole, but he's a fair one. He's as clueless as I am with regard to how this all works and is just trying to be cheap about hiring an attorney--even though with a mediator you each need an attorney anyway, which means you're actually paying for 3 of them! But he has sunk his teeth into the idea of mediation and there's no changing his mind! I've told him I'm not seeing the mediator without consulting an attorney first. I don't want any more surprises.
As far as counseling, I've been seeing a therapist for years, which has also been a hotly debated bone of contention between us.
Even if you think your stbx is fair, be prepared that they can change during the settlement process if they realise that they may have to pay out more than they thought. Mine became impossible to deal with to the point that I became so nervous, I wasn't sleeping and I shook for three weeks. Afraid that my health would suffer, I caved in to a lesser deal than I should have and my ex got away with cheating on value of the business, the house and cars. Please don't let that happen to you. Be prepared that things could get difficult. He could get nasty.
That's where a good legal rep comes in. Mine let me cave because I chose not to go to court. I wish he'd helped me find the courage to persist, but that's not his job. You have to find the strength to stand up and get the best deal you can, even if things get a bit rough.
I'm glad you're having counseling. I don't know if I'd have made it through without one. BTW, my ex also resented medical bills. So glad I don't have to deal with that any more.
All the best.
love and hugs
kamary
Get a good attorney! You are entitled to half the marital assets, maybe more if you are in an equitable distribution state.
Sending hugs!