Hey Trish, I don't think I was giving this guy sympathy, I just want him to stop torturing his wife and end that sham of a marriage, quickly and properly. Whether they are douchebags (as this guy clearly is) or not.

Eyes: I know you wouldn't do that. You are right he needs to own up to what he is doing. Perhaps I needed to go back and read what you wrote. You are a strong person and your reply seemed a little weak. Yes, it was tactful. Something I usually do too well. But my radar went off on this man the minute I read his posting and I chose not to respond at first. Which I also need to look at and wonder why I didn't respond when I should have.

Perhaps this gives us all something to think about. I know I should have resisted my urge to not rock the boat and accept what I knew didn't seem right. Old tapes from my marriage and gives me something else about me I need to work on.

All I can say is WOW! And I do mean WOW! First things first, I want to say thanks to WDSPIRIT, EYESWIDEOPEN, BENAIAH, BOBBI24, AND SLD1 for all your positive, supporting thoughts and words. You all obviously know what the word âsupportâ really means according to the philosophy of this website. To all the others â I have to admit that I am SO impressed! I am flabbergasted by your powers of perception! You read all of one paragraph from me and looked to see that I was a member of 2 different groups and you know everything about this 42yr old man and his 23yr marriage to the mother of my 4 kids! I have to tell you, you all should be on TV because your psychic powers are phenomenal!!!! Of course you never took into consideration a great many things. You might want to try and find out all the information before you have me burned at the stake. MAYBE, my affair was years ago, and MAYBE it is over now, MAYBE my wife knows about it, and MAYBE she has forgiven me for it. MAYBE I am truly sorry for what I have done, and just MAYBE Iâm not saying that Iâm perfect, and that I am perfectly willing to accept responsibilities for my past actions. And just MAYBE I was faithful to her for the 1st 15 years of our marriage and MAYBE I did everything in my power to make her happy. And just MAYBE I am married to a selfish, lazy person, and MAYBE I have felt like Iâve raised 5 kids over the years and not just 4. And just MAYBE I sought out someone else for love, understanding, intimacy, and respect that I wasnât getting from her. MAYBE I even tried to tell her that, and MAYBE she just never changed. And just MAYBE I have even been told by my own family and friends that I deserve better than her because MAYBE they know her a hell of a lot better than any of you do. MAYBE I have even tried separation in the past, and MAYBE she is so immature, co-dependent, and needy that MAYBE she would never even let me go. And just MAYBE she has such emotional baggage from her screwed up childhood, that MAYBE even 4 hours after learning about my 2.5 year affair (which I was completely prepared to be kicked out), she asked me to make love to her, so MAYBE that should show how unbalanced she truly is. MAYBE she even told me that I could continue to see this woman if I stayed married with her. And just MAYBE none of you will believe any of this because in all your minds, men who have cheated are all evil, disgusting, bastards who are walking around with perpetual boners, and just want to dip their wicks in someone elseâs wax. And MAYBE in your minds they can never be trusted, never be understood, and are only 1-dimensional, hairy, creatures who are incapable of anything past drinking beer, and scratching themselves in public. MAYBE there are more men out there like me who have YES â made mistakes, but also have worked their asses off raising 4 children from the age of 17 by juggling multiple careers, part time jobs, and doing medical research studies to help make ends meet, while their wives sat on their lazy asses thinking that more jewelry and diet pills were going to make all their problems disappear.
To all the male bashers out there hereâs clue #1: this was supposed to be a support group about DIVORCE, not an open forum for lambasting those who have commited adultery. Here is clue #2: men do not stand at the altar with a plan to stay in a marriage for so many years, and then find the first nice piece of ass they can find to completely destroy their marriages and lives with. I guess I canât speak for everyone, but that wasnât MY intention when I got married.
Now let me ask you this: what is your intention? Are your lives so boring that you find the first poor male subject you can find and bash them to emotional misery? Are your self esteems so far in the toilet that the only way you can make yourselves feel better is to make others feel worse about their lives and their mistakes? Again, you read ONE paragraph of my life and thought thatâs all you needed to tell the world about what a âRATâ, âBABY BOYâ, âCOWARDâ I am, and how I should be âSLAPPED ACROSS THE TABLEâ???? WOW! My sympathies to anyone in your worldsâ who ever possibly make a mistake and cross your paths!!
Do me, and mostly yourselves a favor - MAYBE in the future you should find out all the information before you throw out your self-righteous, judgmental bullshit for everyone in the world to have hear. MAYBE you should be true to the integrity of the website and only give supporting, helpful advice, and finally, MAYBE you should stay true to the old saying that âIf you donât have anything good to say, donât say anything at allâ - and just SHUT UP!!

JACKSBUD:

So NOW you tell "the rest of your story." I find the defensiveness in your words most interesting, given that you are "coming clean" after being sniffed out by our savvy membership.

You wrote (among a litany of justifications) "this was supposed to be a support group about DIVORCE, not an open forum for lambasting those who have commited adultery."

Well, you are right about DS in general, but dead wrong about this particular sub-group. We DO give helpful advice and support -- and willingly -- when newcomers are HONEST about their indiscretions. NOBODY likes being played for a fool. And as far us being sexist, I think if you take the time and read back over some of the recent discussions here, you will find that those of us (MEN AND WOMEN) who have been betrayed and then been subjected to "history being rewritten" by our runaway spouses, we have learned to discern the cheater's heart in a very short period of time.

You already belong to the groups that should be most helpful to you: INFIDELITY and CHEATERS ANONYMOUS. They are open to MEN AND WOMEN who have defiled their marriage vows -- whether it was 10 years ago or 10 minutes ago regardless of whether the deed has ever been confessed to their spouse. I cannot speak for the others here, but in this Cowgirl's world THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR SEXUAL INFIDELITY IN A MARRIAGE so don't expect any sympathy. The wound of BETRAYAL is the hardest to heal -- you have NO IDEA what that wound is like unless you have had it inflicted upon you. I would suggest that you tread very lightly if you plan to continue posting here.

P.S. JACKSBUD:
You wrote: " First things first, I want to say thanks to WDSPIRIT, EYESWIDEOPEN, BENAIAH, BOBBI24, AND SLD1 for all your positive, supporting thoughts and words. You all obviously know what the word support means."

Those positive, supportive thoughts and words were written BEFORE I challenged you. Note the difference in tone by eyeswideopen after she knew! And the others who had NOT responded to your initial post because they, like me, smelled a rat!

Sorry, pal, errors of ommission are not taken lightly here. I hope if you are serious about quitting your marriage that you have learned from THIS experience to be completely honest and upfront with whatever attorney you retain.

TO Cowgirl - WHO FUCKING CARES ABOUT MY INFIDELITY!!!!!?????? Why is it that YOU need to know all the details before giving me any needed advice about my marriage and/or divorce? My marriage could be coming to an end because of 10,000 different reasons. Why should it matter? If it does, I didn't ASK you what you thought about my infidelity - DID I? How is it that you feel like you have to know everyone's life story before you give them advice?? When it comes right down to it, you love to sit on your precious throne and look down your permanently disjointed nose at all those "EVIL CHEATERS", and anyone else who doesn't measure up to your pristine perfection. What a self-righteous, judgemental, perfectionistic BITCH you are. When you read my post you had 3 choices. You could have just given the advice that I was asking, and gone on your way. You could have completely ignored me, and not worried about it. But you chose #3, to completely check me over to see whether I was WORTHY of your solid gold advice since you are SO smart, and SO worldy, and SO perfect, and informed the world that in YOUR opinion I am a worthless peice of shit. Who in the HELL do you think you are lady?? Again, you're not getting all the information before you jump in blindly. MAYBE I've already got all the advice on infidelity I need and maybe it isn't/hasn't worked. I came to this group to ask for advice on DIVORCE! NOTHING MORE/NOTHING LESS! I'll make this suggestion to you ONE MORE TIME! If you have positive, supportive advice about divorce, then I'd love to hear it. If not, keep your busybody bullshit to yourself! Go pick on some unsuspecting little elementary school bullies, or anyone else your own size. Other than that keep your self-righteous drivel to yourself. You aren't the only person out here. GOT IT??? How old do you have to be before you finally grow up?

I wrote my post when I knew about the infidelity. I looked at your profile before I posted. I called you on it and I told you what I thought. That's why he was thanking me. I was polite.

Everyone needs to back off for now. It's getting too mean. Most of us on this board have been cheated on so there is a great deal of pain associated with that. I suggested finding what made him fall in love with her.

I would have loved to make my marriage work. I would have loved to have my family together. That's not possible for many of us but it still is for jacksbud.

I hope you fight to get your marriage on track. It would be the best thing for everyone IF you can do it. It will be tough and painful. You and your wife might be able to fall in love all over again. I hope that happens for both of you.

Best of luck to you.

The Issue at hand has everything to do with infidelity .

Pardon the sincerity, but if one [having a history of infidelity] has no control over the basic pleasures of life, that person simply does not qualify for a concrete commitment of marriage. Infidelity is grounds for divorce. This clearly answer's your original question. Now, you go figure how to do and when to.

I am sick of his protests, his rants, out of control enrages, put downs,, and his need to pathologizing his spouse and everyone else that doesn't cater to his moral convictions.

Me too eyeswidesopen my stbx was just here yesterday trying to place all the blame of our upcoming diviorce on me. He wants to be married but still be able to cheat. I too finally had to say no I can't do this anymore I am worth more than to allow someone to treat me so badly. You can't in any way shape or form have your cake and eat it too. It's so sad how easily they can throw years away just for OW and try to put all the blame on you.

RE: And just MAYBE she has such emotional baggage from her screwed up childhood, that MAYBE even 4 hours after learning about my 2.5 year affair (which I was completely prepared to be kicked out), she asked me to make love to her, so MAYBE that should show how unbalanced she truly is.

I think you might do a little more studying up on this unbalanced behavior you mention. There is actually a word for it. It's called hysterical bonding. It isn't abnormal and many couples experience it when an extramarial affair is revealed or discovered.

It seems to me you have decided to throw in the towel. Your post and responses imply you don't care to keep on trying due to not knowing what else to do. There is no easy way to divorce. My advice is...(and you are asking for advice) take the high road at all times. Do not play the blame game. Cut down contact to as minimal as possible and only with regard to the children. This will be painful for all involved. Since you are the one initating the divorce then in my opinion be kind and see to it she is taken care of. No name calling or attacking her character. Words dont bounce off like rubber. Go beyond what the law calls for and be generous. Not to ease your conscience but to do what is right. And don't go throwing it into her face everything you have done for her. Just do what's right and go on with your life. But I have to warn you like the others have before, you are just trading off one painful situation for another. The grass isn't greener on the other side. Everyone has baggage. Certainly if you loved her once before you could love her again.

I'm sorry if you feel beat up here. But really this topic doesn't belong in this forum. Good luck

There is one thing that I would like to add to this conversation and that is the harm divorce does to the children. My ex had emotional affairs. The first one I overlooked and kind of wrote it off to mid life crisis...the second one was serious enough for him to leave the marriage. He claims he didnt have a physical affair but to me an emotional one was worse. Suddenly I became a bad person in his eyes and it was my fault this happened. I was the cause of all his troubles. If only I had done this or that...it wouldnt have happened. He loved me but was not in love with me. I was more like a comfortable warm coat and I didnt light his fire with in. He told me he probably never loved me in the first place. He felt I trapped him by getting pregnant. Well after 2 years he decided to come back. I wanted my family in tact and was willing to do almost anything to get it back. Suddenly he loved me after all. I was a good person again. I was a wonderful lover and a great mom. I took him back. Fast forward to today...Im right back where I was the first time. Im am 8 months post divorce for the second time to the same man. Only this time I am in control of me...I have no contact with this man nor will I ever other than if our children are in crisis and they need both of us there.

When my ex left the first time my son was 18 at the time. He was so shocked when his dad told him he was leaving. It was just the day before my son said to the 2 of us...you guys are such a cute couple. His father leaving pulled the rug right out from under him. He lost his trust in his judgment. All the things he thought was true and secure turned out to be false. This did a real number on his head. He didnt trust his dad anymore and worst of all...he didnt trust himself. He loved his dad and hated him all at the same time. Can you imagine what thats like for a young adult who's just starting out in this world. He was so shattered he contemplated suicide. He didnt actually try..but I had him see a councilor the next day and over the following weeks. Its been almost 6 years since the first time his dad left and Ive watched my son basically wander. He's not putting roots down anywhere. He cant seem to commit to anything. He dosnt stay at any one job for very long and he quite college shortly after the first divorce and he has a brilliant mind. Now...I cant say for certain that the first divorce is the root of all his troubles but I will really never know. The only thing I know for sure is that it changed him. Jacksbud...please think hard about what you want to do. It effects more than just you and your wife. It seems the children suffer the most and they seem to be the least involved.

For me it was hard to read your post because I was on the receiving end of what you are planning on doing. It almost destroyed me...not once but twice. I would like to think that I could give you some good advise or even a hug of acknowledgment but I cant. Not because I judge you or I think you are a bad person but because its still quite raw in many ways. You simply can not imagine the pain unless you've been in this position. There are quite a few people here who were the ones who left...men and women but it wasnt for the reasons you explained. It was mostly due to abuse of some kind or chronic cheaters . So, we do support people who have the need to leave there marriages. I think if you were to ask those who felt the need to leave there marriages they would tell you it was probably the hardest thing they ever had to do. My guess would be that it would be the same for you and your reasons but please consider your children. Big Hugs...Kathy

If the intent of your original post was about the impact of a divorce on children -- there are plenty of books, groups, and supports on this to share the facts and perspectives. If the animosity , disdain or contempt for a spouse (or between spouses) is evident in and permeates your family environment in communications, actions, etc. this is of no help to the children, does not support a healthy adult role model and will influence how they may develop as adults in their own relationships. Children don't have any choices in whether their parents honor vows, committments, problem solve, seek support or counseling to strengthen the relationship when needed, etc. They aren't blind, understand the conflict, can model how parents treat each other, etc. If it's really your worries about the impact on the children (who deserve the ability to love and care for each parent in thier own way whether a dissolution occurs or not) --- then keep the high road open whatever your decisions so they can are afforded their rights as children http://www.divorcehq.com/billrights.shtml.

The URL is; http://www.divorcehq.com/billrights.shtml

Additionally, as a parent, dealing with these aspects of our humanness - requires us to sometimes look at our own imperfect selves (gosh knows I must do so). There is more than just the impact of a possible divorce on the children. There is another aspect to deal with - which is the impact of an affair in the marriage on the children as well. When considering the impact on children -- the past, present and future have to be considered and appropriate parenting, counseling and support offered. While this is not a forum directed at infidelity and its impact on children -- I'll share one source. http://www.nytimes.com/1989/03/09/us/health-psychology-experts-find-extramarital-affairs-have-profound-impact.html?sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=1