Because until you prove I am a "damaging" person whether its "your perception" is not reality based. I might as well state that it is "my perception" that trees are damaging or dangerous or sidewalks or everyone of a different skin color or nationality "are dangerous"...just because someone has a perception does not mean it is correct or should be allowed to perserve in their delusion of reality.

Now pls understand your relationship or lack of rather with your long distant father is not what most of us here are talking about !!! My daughter was 36 yrs old and had been in the middle of loving...giving...supportive parents and extended family all of her life...with all of the perks...college education paid for...wedding of her dreams paid for...new car for college graduation paid for...support for her life decisons and moves..masters degree paid for after she was married and had a job already by parents not her...Parents were present at first grandsons birth and 2nd grandaughters birth and enjoyed a healthy loving mutual relationship until grandson was 8 and grandaughter was 5. Now all of these above things are REALITY not PERCEPTIONS and can be proven by many outside sources and people ...umpires of life if you will.

That entitles me to some reasonable expectation of courteous...civil...honorable actions from my daughter no matter what "perceptions" she woke up one morning...

And the above (which shows how and under what circumstances she was raised under) entitle me as the grandparent to have a reasonable expectation of a relationship with my grandchildren and that they should be entitled to have expectations of a reasonable relationship with their grandparents.

My daughter was not abused either physically or mentally or emotionally by her parents....however based on her "perceptions" vs "reality" she is abusing her own parents and her own grandparents emotionally by withholding grandchildren for NO GOOD REALITY BASED REASON. and abusing her own children emotionally also by withholding from them a god given right to be loved and treated well by their grandparents.

Estranged adult children who estrange based on their "perceptions" vs "realities" and think they are entitled to do so simply because they have perceptions...need to understand that they are not the center of the Universe and blameless.

On a final note...my daughter was once and for many years "my precious child" shall I just hand her over along with my grandchildren to her "dangerous and damaging" perceptions NOW????

Far be it for you to judge where and what our hearts are on this site as so far you have no "experience" as a mother to base your "perceptions" or "reality" on.

AllK

I personally have no interest in having a relationship with my GD until I have a relationship again with my ES.

If you haven't been a mother, you don't know what these parents go through regardless of trying to understand it all. I never thought 20 years ago that both my daughters would not be in my life when they grew up! There are a lot of people on here that have some dysfunction in the family, whether it is a bitter divorce or a friendly one, some other family member starting drama or manipulating their children, some type of "evil" for lack of a better word, going on-our EC's didn't wake up one day and just decide to NOT be there anymore-real or fantasy or their distorted perception, its' something that has happened over time. I don't have GC's yet, but I hope to have a healthy relationship with both my girls before that happens, but that's up to God, not me. I have put them and my future GC;s in His hands and I expect Him to do His will with it all. As far as feeling entitled, I bore those children from my womb, and as their mother, I deserve respect and if they can't or won't give it to me, then they will have many regrets when they get older. They will have to experience life more and become what they are trying to run from before they understand what they are doing to us parents.

Norske, how is DH? Has ES contacted him again?

This topic is precisely why I resisted getting too attached to my GS's from the very beginning - from the time my ED announced her first pregnancy, because I knew what she would be capable of doing if I got too attached. She seems to get a power trip out of hurting me. So I try to avoid getting caught in her web.

On the rare occasion my DH and I get to see our GS's we enjoy them, dote over them and love them as any loving grandparents would. But when we leave them, we leave it there and get on with our lives. We do suffer a little withdrawal, of course. Once in awhile we talk about them and the fond memories and laugh at some of the sweet, innocent things they say and do.... and we even shed a tear or two. But we sure do not have any expectations of having any kind of a lasting relationship with them. My ED would not allow it - partly to hurt us at her whim, partly because she is a controller and wants to be the one in total control of them and their loyalties, and partly because she is prone to jealousy and is insecure in herself. So why set ourselves up for more heart ache? It is what it is, and we accept it. It is not our choice, but we accept it because we have no choice.

Our ED is not married yet and there are no children however I am a grandmother from my other children. The women in this group are wonderful and caring mothers. We deserve respect and honor. I base this on God's Word not on my opinion. As Christians, we live by God's standards. There is no grey area when it comes to God's perspective on parent/ child relationships. Our EC left us we did not leave them. We also know that we can not change another person. I pray that one day our ED will desire to have a peaceful relationship with DH and I. She is living in a fantasy world and has had several bfs in the past few years. She is searching for things that will never fill her. Only God can. My prayer is that ED (age 23) will turn to God and then her parents on that order.

Grandchildren who are being withheld from loving grandparents are losing out on lots of love. There are no winners in estrangement.

I hope that your EF and you can have peace. I hope your pregnancy is going well.

NCEC - that's exactly how my daughter views it. Although it was several months into her pregnancy before she did an about-face on the whole family thing, and told us we were too awful to be around her baby, and we had no clue; before that, all was normal. We were just all over-the-moon about it. Then suddenly, you and daddy are too awful to be around the baby, after all - and to her sister, you'd better not say anything about it unless you agree with me, or you're out, too. (Sister is now out as well.)

So you have asked, if they believe your presence is damaging, why on earth would they hand over their precious child? The answer is, they wouldn't. Let's say my mother drowned kittens for fun. Would I want my babies around her? Of course not. Let's say she never did that, but I had the perception she did. For all practical purposes, that's the same thing. It may be all in my head, but I would still arrive at the same conclusion. Especially if I were very invested in that delusion.

What we deal with here are a lot of adult children whose perceptions are wrong. We have others that like the feeling of power that using a grandchild as a weapon gives them. Then we have some with a combination of the two (as my daughter apparently is).

Of course, there *are* parents who drowned kittens, or who abused or neglected their children, and naturally, protecting one's children from them makes sense. But let's say none of that, in fact, went on. Let's say no one else in the world, including other family, life-long friends, perhaps siblings, you name it, can possibly make sense of ANY reason for the estrangement. Up against that, one person's "perception" seems . . . delusional.

For me, I'm glad we found out how our daughter's brain works before we got attached to the baby. It was a huge shock, but now we know, and have distanced ourselves emotionally from the baby. Should she ever want to come back, we will protect ourselves by keeping that distance.

Other grandparents already have relationships with their grandchildren, and have them snatched away at five, eight years and older. At least, by this happening to us now, our grandbaby will never have to go through that.

Do you really think, NCEC, that all the parents on here and on other sites, whose grown children estranged them, are drowning kittens or the equivalent? I assure you, that's not the case.

I don't know what your father did to you, but I hope it was pretty bad, or you wouldn't feel you have to protect your baby from him. If, like in my case and others, he is a perfectly good, or good enough, person, well, welcome to the tragedy.

Dear NCEC; You are so correct. We as parents who are estranged do not always believe that the estrangement is our fault or caused by us or share a responsibility for the estrangement. Whatever the cause we don't want to be estranged from our GKs.
I have accepted that I will not have a relationship with my GKs until my ES, his family and my DH and I have worked out where our relationship fell apart.
We did have a relationship with our ES and family for many years. It wasn't perfect but we all tried. Then my DH and DIL had a verbal meltdown. There is some connection between ES and me but no relationship.
Can I expect that my GKs would want a relationship with us when their parents don't? No, realistically we have lost that connection until such time as they may search us out. Meantime I send cards and gifts for any occasion I can think of.
Its really a privilege that you share with us the other side of estrangement. Keep doing so. I'm praying that your pregnancy is going well. Blessings.

Thankyou for your perspectives. I've learnt something from every response.

I guess my thought process is that like your EC, you only have your perception of reality. Not reality itself. Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts - Proverbs 21:2.

My EF probably won't be involved in my childs life, although he will blame me for that and tell others its all my fault. And he will believe that. He believes that I am ungodly and 'using' the kid to hurt him, etc etc. All of which will only serve to alienate me further because it is such a negative, toxic attitude. I don't condemn him for that, but rather feel a great deal of compassion for him. For what's driving him to that deflection, and for the consequences he will experience as a result (no relationship with his child or GC). Still, that won't sway me from protecting my child from a danger I perceive. It's just such a tragic situation all round, as most situations are I read off here. No, I don't believe 'everyone here has drowned kittens' nor do I believe that all the EC being talked about are 'evil and deliberately witholding GC to hurt the EP' . It's just all so damn tragic.

Sidenote to Alana2: What my father did to me? You know what I don't think it's anything worth losing a relationship over if we both want one (and I think we both do). As far as I can tell, he is deflecting and projecting his guilt onto me so he doesn't have to cope with it. Yeah, he did a really crappy thing. I forgave him, but I don't think he's forgiven himself. And the way he treats me as a result is what I can't put up with....so yes....welcome to the tragedy.

Estrangement is sad for all concerned. It is a sign of the times. I'm sure we all pray that things will be different one day by God's grace. He alone can change hearts. He can bring healing.

The sun rising and setting every 24 hours is reality. So is gravity.

A person's perception that it rises and sets every 36 or 48 hours ...might in fact be their perception but it is a wrongful perception...infact perhaps a delusional perception...it matters not what their "perception" is...reality is reality. Trying to distort reality when it can be proven by outside circumstances by "crying, its my perception" does not in fact make "a perception" in to truth or reality.

I realize that many if not most of these estranged adult children do distort reality into their "perception" so as to be allowed to take action on their perception vs the "REALITY" of life.

Many hard lessons will follow if you distort reality into a perception to "suit you"...Natural Law/God's Law will not be distorted into perception just because estranged think it will and that they are "entitled" to live their lives according to perception.

Perception by the way is not the same thing for owning up to how each party feels and working it out thru civilized communication on both parties part., There can also "PARENTS" who fall victim to "their perceptions" instead of all parties facing reality and getting the issue or problem solved.

Either side can be wrong in their perceptions...but the universal truths and Gods Law will prevail in the long run...no matter "perceptions"

AllK

AllK

Honestly my parents weren't perfect, none of us are but I would never ever deny my child the love of my family period. Now I am not talking sexual abuse or anything of that nature. I love and miss my parents everyday and my Nana too. I miss my in-laws as well and always treated them with respect. My daughter started shutting everyone out three years ago. I don't take it personally anymore, she is nasty and disrespectful to all. It is who she has become, not how she was raised. My grandson is the true victim here, he is but seven years old and he does deserve all the kindness and love he can get. I pray for him, that is all I can do. He will survive her wrath, he is strong and wise! Good Luck to you!

Since our ES always seemed to have a loving relationship with us, the GC always run into our arms for hugs and to be held, I don't think he can deny that we are loving people. At least I think he still has the perception that we would never hurt them, besides, they would certainly tell him. He knows whatever he is holding against us is an adult problem that has to do with money, not any emotional or physical hurt. At this point, his no contact is his revenge. However, he has told us we may see our GD one day next wk for her birthday. I realize we will only be allowed very limited contact with them as birthdays and perhaps one day during their Christmas break. Our emotions, our EC emotions are all over the place and no one size fits all. We were very close and continue to desire to be very close to our GC. They lived in the other half of our duplex for a long time and I am sure they miss seeing us also. At least our ES is willing to give this a try. That is all I can ask. Each situation is different so what works for one will not work for another. All we can do is take one day at a time and be grateful for that. Almighty God is so much bigger than any of this and His will be done. I have to leave it in God's hands.

We have seen our ES, DIL and GD twice now since they came to the hospital to visit my DH during his surgery. It is obvious "they" and especially DIL, are in control. That is fine. After 7 years of not seeing them at all, we are drained of emotions so going slow is fine with DH and me. At our last visit GD told us all about her up coming birthday party and said "why don't you come too?" and her parents immediately changed the subject. It was obvious we are not invited. And that is okay. '

I asked our Es if we could send her a little b'day present and he said that would be nice. We decided on something small, under $10 value, since she will be only 4. It is the thought that counts, right?

Norske, You have a lovely spirit. It is loving of you to send a gift. The gc are innocent. How is your DH?