thank you

This is written with such clarity and insight. I am glad to hear that you got the counselling and support to come to these realizations and that you are able to verbalize it in a precise and understandable manner . You must feel immense respect for yourself and it is well deserved.

I wish you much success in your endeavours.

Thank you. Not only from my own experiences, but watching others implode. Realizing I should take my own advice.

One addition- I did this myself. I followed these rules for stretches of several months at a time. Then I tried to convince myself I deserved these privileges back. I didn't . I would also think I deserved accolades for being good. We don't deserve accolades for doing what we are SUPPOSED to do!! That's like getting a pat on the back because you fed and clothed your child. Do what you're supposed to, don't expect anything in return. Ever. Hopefully eventually your faithfulness and honesty will be recognized and appreciated on your spouses terms. Not yours.

I think your points are very valid and yes, to be expected when working together in your M to overcome an A.

I'm glad you weren't in a "fog". I was. It is not BS for everyone. (It is a very well documented phenomenon and I had two therapists call it that also.) I may not have realized what it was at that time nor used the term "fog"; however, there is a sense of addiction, being caught in the moment, not being able to fully recognize or understand the impact of your actions.

In a healthy marriage, I do expect things in return. I expect working together, respect and appreciation of each other, knowing that we are each fallible and accepting our faults just as we accept our strengths. Just like you said its about making someone feel cherished, valued, and honored......I would expect that in return....sometimes (but not all) that is what may lead someone to another who can do just that.

The fog doesn't get you into an A, the fog keeps you in the A once you've already crossed the line. I understand and agree if that's what's best for you, and you can deal with all that distrust & prying into every part of your life, then go for it.

I wanted MC before I started my A. H refused saying I was the one with the problem, not him. So now he gets to pry into my life???? No way!

Sometime now- thank you for your input. I won't argue about the Fog, we all have our own experiences. I agree about what to expect in a healthy marriage. I think my point was we can't do what is right for weeks or months and expect things to be perfect. I believe it would take 12-18 or even 24 months to instill trust in someone that has been betrayed. Trust enough for them to freely give of themselves to return those feelings and values. It's a long road and every shortcut has a cliff at the end. I did and perhaps many do, change behaviors for a short time and think I'm fixed or healed, or say well, it wasn't an addiction. We have to let them heal and open up to us on THEIR own. Not our expectations. We lost that right.

Clover moon I agree that it's very difficult, I chose not to put up with the distrust. Part of my point is I believe very few of us can just decide not to cheat again. It's requires a lifestyle change that requires us to stay honest. I too begged for MC before any of my affairs began. It was her narcissism that pushed me to the edge, ultimately it was my fault.. Not hers.
-shoretimenow, sorry bout the auto correct in my last post.

I am in no way an expert but here is a thought I had when reading your post.

I went to MC, alone, after finding out about my husband's affairs. I was asking my husband to do do/give all the things you wrote about in your post: passwords, checking in etc...

My counselor told me that doing these things will not build trust but will just cause trust to be even more damaged for a few reasons.

I can't keep an eye on him ALL the time. Am I going to follow him to the bathroom? or to all his meetings and business trips? How will I know he isn't deleting texts, or having a private email? No, this will not restore trust.

This will not help me feel better, this will only drive me nuts, and it was.

Also, it can cause him to feel like I am a police officer rather than a loving partner, and even though he was the one who made the mistake, it can cause resentment and pulling away, instead of fostering loving feelings towards one another, which is what a marriage needs to thrive.

He told me trust had to be rebuilt by respect, patience, love and working together. By his actions to help me feel loved, valued and honored, (hard to do when he wouldn't even come to MC), I would start to feel like I could trust him again. According to my MC this was the only way to start rebuilding trust. And then he told me that once this got started, there would be a point when I would have CHOOSE to trust him again. Even though it would be a risk, and even though I would not have forgotten what he had done, I would have to choose to let that obsession go and give him my trust again, once I felt some safety again.

Not sure if this is good advice or not, but it seems to make sense, just because, it's true. If he wanted to cheat, he could still find a way, even if i was checking up on him all the time. If he decided not to and was really working towards the marriage there is a better chance he would be faithful than if he was only doing it because he knew I might checkup on him.

Unfortunately, neither of these things happened and I ended up seeking comfort and trust in the exact way I was upset with him. (Ironic and not out of revenge) I DO NOT blame him. It was my choice. But I am sad that I made the choice in so many ways.

Sorry for the long response about stuff I clearly don't know that much about.

Just something I always found interesting, so I though I would share.

What do you all think? Is that foolish advice to BS's?

Yep, nope. Just because we made a mistake doesn't give the go ahead for a complete invasion of privacy. My first thought on reading this was how annoyed and taken advantage of I would feel if my significant other was able to go through everything I did. Perhaps that's why you felt entitled for something in return? While I understand where you're coming from, this isn't a healthy relationship. Just breeds more mistrust. I had a relationship like this and it drove us both nuts. Never again.

Only speaking from my experience so fuck you.

Two points I'd like to make.

One, concerning the fog, there are a lot of misconceptions about what it is and isn't. I wrote a whole article on the topic at my blog called "Fogville."

I'll distill it. It doesn't mean the CS doesn't know what they are doing (that's ignorance) or that the CS isn't responsible for what they are doing, or it's a free pass for the CS to say, "I couldn't help myself." Some tend to use it that way, and some BSs think that's what it means, but,well, that's a bunch of BS. Probably the biggest myth about what the fog is out there.

The fog is nothing more than driving selfish desires being fulfilled despite the hurt to loved ones, but due to that addictive desire, you ignore anything that would give you pause and justify doing what you want to do. If you're doing something you want real bad, despite it will greatly injure your spouse, and make a decision anyway to go through with it, you are in the fog of addictive desires you are failing to control. If you weren't in the fog, you wouldn't do it, like a recovering addict going through withdraw but continually deciding not to take more of the drug because they know their emotions are lying to them about how good it will be for all involved. They are choosing to not be swayed by foggy thinking.

So it is not the fog that doesn't exist, it is the misconception of the fog that doesn't exist.

Two, there is a big difference between playing policeman constantly due to a relationship of mistrust, and an honest and open relationship where no secrets are kept. The former does mean there is a problem in the relationship, the latter is a healthy relationship.

Here's the scoop. When infidelity happens, the relationship is broken (when it happens, not when the BS finds out). The BS doesn't trust the CS, generally. They are going to play policeman and detective for as long as that mistrust continues. That will diminish as trust is rebuilt, which can take months or years.

The only way trust is rebuilt is for both spouses to be open and honest with each other as in a healthy marriage. If that doesn't happen, the BS will likely never stop feeling the need to play policeman and detective, which does indicate the marriage is not in a good place. Not because one spouse feels a need to do that, in most cases, but because the spouse has reason to do that. It is a symptom, not a cause of the marriage's condition, and should be a cause to find out what the problem is and address it than point the finger at not trusting.

As the BS, the first few months after dday I frequently checked up on Gabby. At first nearly every day. As she stayed transparent and honest with me, my trust in her began to grow. As it grew, my need to check on her grew less and I did it less and less. Today, almost 4 years later, I think it has been over a year since I did any checking. The time before that, it had been months.

But if she had demanded privacy, wouldn't let me see her phone on demand, and other like actions to keep secrets, Assuming I hadn't left her by now, I'd still feel a need to check up on her regularly. Any secret is evidence of continued deception and the BS can only assume, likely the continuation of an affair.

Today, if suddenly Gabby didn't want me to look at her phone, discovered she had changed her password on FB without telling me, it would be a huge red flag that would send me back into detective mode to find out what it is she doesn't want me to see.

Which is why even though I've never cheated, Gabby knows how to get into my phone, my email, my FB and other such communications. If she asked, I'd immediately open up anything to her. Does she go through all that? I don't know that she ever has. Could I still find a way to cheat without her suspecting it? I honestly think I'd be better at it than she was. But that isn't the issue even as it wasn't in the first weeks after dday. Rather whether she was being open and honest, and I wanted to catch her being honest. The more I did, the easier it was to rebuild trust and the less of that I needed to do. The more I would have sensed she hid something, the more I'd need to check because of distrust continuing to grow.

That's why Gabby and I don't have any such secrets to hide from each other, no demands of privacy unless we're wrapping presents or something. It is because of that openness we know our relationship is healthy. The moment one of us has something to hide is the moment we're in trouble.

I didn't cheat, and I'm doing the things Illinois is doing for the rest of his life as well. If Gabby suspected I was cheating and constantly wanted to go through my stuff, and despite finding nothing continued to do that for a year or two, then there may be some cause for concern. Not that she was going through my stuff, she wouldn't find anything she doesn't know about, but that she distrusted me enough to feel that need when not based on anything. I would need to find out what was driving that need. The solution wouldn't be to shut her out short of if she were sending out messages pretending to be me, an abuse of our openness and trust.

So Illinois isn't opening himself up to a lifetime of mistrust, he's giving his spouse the freedom to trust and/or build that trust. If she continues to mistrust and play policeman after a reasonable amount of time has passed, it is due to other factors that need to be addressed in the relationship, not because he opened up his life to her and trusted her with who he is.

If your goal is to rebuild your marriage, once the cat is out of the bag especially, demanding privacy or anything that tells the BS you don't want them to know about something they won't like, and whether true or not, for the BS the affair isn't over. And they are going to act like it is dday every day because they can't heal, for years, until the marriage crumbles under the weight of mistrust.

Of course, if the goal isn't to rebuild and save the marriage, ignore everything I said. Your next relationship, however, is another story.

I'm having my post #10 & #13 removed. Sorry, they were uncalled for.

BUT...remember I was a BS before I became a CS. I never played private investigator bc I felt if he wants to do that again & I find out the M would be over. Same for me.

Clover moon...we all have different experiences. I was a serial cheater, not a one time cheater or just bad judgement. It was a character flaw. I had to change my character and behavior otherwise, I'll just keep doing it.. And asking the spouse or significant other to be your accountability partner in that process in time will hopefully rebuild relationship and trust. Without those two things, why bother? I am divorced now and don't plan on making the same mistakes and plan on being a better person. I plan on being honest about my past and who I was. I plan on having better relationships and setting better boundaries for myself and being able to live within those boundaries....

You are so very right. There is no one size fits all solution to cheating bc every experience is different. One thing for sure, if the M had problems before the A, the A just pushes it over the edge. Then the solution is all about the A & not what was wrong with the M to begin with.