Cheaters and Betrayeds Helping Each Other Community Group
This is a group where cheaters and betrayeds can come to try to help each other better understand infidelity from the perspective of the other side because understanding can often lead to healing. Members can ask each other questions, share experiences, and provide insights and opinions without judgments or animosity. If you have a chip on your shoulder, an axe to grind,...
I am just curious about how some of you view use of pornography by your partner.
I realize that some people consider it to be unacceptable. In some cases maybe they had relationship problems because partner was addicted to it (this question really isn't for them -- I understand once the addictive factor is introduced, it changes the game).
I have however spoken to some people who are threatened by the idea of their partner using it at all, regardless of the frequency.
Does anyone here have specific parameters of acceptability concerning masturbation or use of porn by your partner?
Is it the masturbation itself that is a problem for you, or the use of pornographic images or stories to facilitate arousal?
I really hope this doesn't come across as baiting. Part of the reason I ask is that I would have a really hard time believing any man who said he never used or uses porn, or who promises not to.
I realize that some people consider it to be unacceptable. In some cases maybe they had relationship problems because partner was addicted to it (this question really isn't for them -- I understand once the addictive factor is introduced, it changes the game).
I have however spoken to some people who are threatened by the idea of their partner using it at all, regardless of the frequency.
Does anyone here have specific parameters of acceptability concerning masturbation or use of porn by your partner?
Is it the masturbation itself that is a problem for you, or the use of pornographic images or stories to facilitate arousal?
I really hope this doesn't come across as baiting. Part of the reason I ask is that I would have a really hard time believing any man who said he never used or uses porn, or who promises not to.
What is it that makes using porn for masturbation different from masturbating without it? Is it that it involves images of other people? (assuming it's pictures or video)
What I'm thinking is this: I know people will fantasize about anything -- or anyone -- when they masturbate. Or even indeed when they have sex. I myself have occasionally thought about people other than my sex partner during sex, and I have heard other people admit to similar things.
Point is, if my partner were fantasizing about Angelina Jolie during masturbation OR sex, there would be no evidence I could use against them if they claimed they didn't. I know you and Gabby have an exceptionally rigorous policy of honesty and transparency, but it seems quite out of the ordinary to me. Maybe you could ask her if she thought about other people and be able to expect an honest answer, but I don't know if that's the case in most relationships.
Why can't you use it WITH you partner?
Last but not least, I felt offended that you talk about men using pornography and masturbating, but not women. Really? This is XXIst century. It is ok to talk about it now. Women have high and sophisticated sexual needs, watch porn and masturbate. :-) By the way - I have no idea what gender are you?
Now after I reread your question I am thinking that I was not your target audience to begin with. Which is perhaps I am responding. ;-)
Though yes, if my partner was viewing pornography without me, and masturbating without me, or worse INSTEAD of being with me - yes I would found it a problem. And it is very different from fantasizing..
As for fantasizing - it makes a huge difference whether you are fantasizing about Angelina Jolie (Brad Pitt) or your neighbour........ I hope I don't need to explain the details why.....
Also why can't you share your fantasies with your partner? I don't think it requires rigorous policy of honesty and transparency. Just basic maturity (I know, I know, this is oxymoron in today's world), love and compatibilty.
Makes my post a bit irrelevant. Sorry about that. After I reread the other one perhaps I will post more.
I see I didn't anticipate the fantasy angle because I don't fantasize. If my mind attempts to generate images in my head, it pulls me out of what I'm experiencing, usually, and the excitement dies off. I'm not much of a multitasker. :) Consequently, in my mind, I don't associate masturbation with fantasizing. I think about and focus on what I'm feeling, hearing, and seeing. Not much else. So I forget sometimes that others, like Gabi did, tend to use fantasy to reach climax.
The difference between porn and fantasizing is the activity of the brain. Both generate a libido spike, but while fantasizing is an active version (you're generating images in your mind), porn is a passive activity. You don't have to dream them up, just watch. For someone like me who is focused on feeling, sounds, and sight, the passive fits into that much easier.
In general, I don't view masturbation or porn/fantasizing as inherently cheating. It can be, depending on the situation. It can be wrong for other reasons, but since neither involves a direct relationship with another person, I wouldn't classify it as cheating. That said, it can be an issue that is linked to cheating.
For example, as I mentioned, Gabi through her whole life hasn't been that interested in porn. Not that she didn't get anything sexually from it, but it wasn't much of a draw to her. Even during her highly libidoized A she rarely watched any of it. So if I discovered now that she'd started watching a lot of porn, that would be a huge, giant, red flag waving in my face. My problem wouldn't be so much the porn itself, though there are issues to hash out with that, but where her head is at. For her to be desiring to watch porn out of the blue would indicate her mind has returned to the highly libidoized state it was in during the A, and there is a deeper issue here than watching porn: why she is suddenly watching porn. Which would indicate she's having another A and I would start to investigate what was really going on.
Gabi, however, through her whole life has fantasized. For most of her life, as a way to reach climax. During the A's, all the time. While she worked. Undressing men mentally in public places, at various times during the day. Her sex-texting, sex-chatting were driven primarily by the sexual high she got from the fantasies she created with other people.
The sex-texting, sex-chatting, not only feed her fantasy life, but broke down her morals and resistance to physically cheating. She didn't think she would ever do anything sexual. The first OM sex-texted her. She enjoyed the rush from that, but continually told him she could never do the things they talked about. It took the guy over two months of trying to wiggle his foot in the door and a meeting at a outdoor restaurant to get one BJ from her, something even that day she didn't think she would ever do. But inside she wanted to, and to do more than that, all generated by her fantasies created through sex-texting.
By the time she met OM #2, she'd been having a good month of sex-chatting with multiple guys, which fed her desire to fulfill her fantasies and living in that world made it not seem like such a forbidden thing. From first meeting OM #2 until they had sex was barely 2 weeks. The sex-chatting had worn down her resistance to the idea that she had little fight left in her when opportunity came knocking. Indeed, in one of her sex-chats with a MySpace friend, I read one comment from her where she said in discussing having sex with him, "I love my husband, but I'd really like to experience that." That never happened because the man never had the money to drive to our town. But her mind was no longer in "I'll never do that" mode by that point, and OM #2 had an easy time getting her far beyond the one BJ OM #1 received for two months of "hard" work.
Anyway, it was her desire for fantasy that drove the A's in the first place, and wore down her resistance to the idea despite it going against everything she had believed and held to for over 28 years of marriage. Therefore, it will be her ability to control her fantasies and keep her focus on me and us. Since she's extracted herself from the fog, her libido is no longer through the roof. She doesn't fantasize all day, but only did to achieve climax as she'd done all her life.
I pretty much found out about this after dday, that our whole marriage she'd fantasized when we had sex. Initially, that freaked me out. I mean, I would never think of watching porn while we had sex. To me that would be saying to her,, "You're not enough for me, I need to watch this hot naked woman to get me there." As if getting me there was the main point of having sex with her. I would consider that belittling and disrespectful to her if I were to do that. So to know that she need this other fantasy man in her brain when I was giving her a climax made me feel disrespected, that I wasn't enough, and she needed this other fantasy man in her head.
We discussed that and I understood that this had been a lifelong habit she'd had since teen years, and for her it was a means to an end. LIke you said, it had the advantage that you could indulge and no one would be the wiser. Unlike with watching porn, she'd be aware that's what I was doing if I did that. Not to mention my head would be looking off to the side instead of toward her.
But she's gone on a quest to conquer that as well. She's experienced and learned you can experience very good climaxes without fantasy. But as far as I'm concerned, that is between her and God, because like you said, I'll never know. I don't ask. Though occasionally I might ask how it's going in general.
That's our situation. My battle has always been with porn. It is bad for other reasons, but, it has never generated in me a desire to cross the boundary of developing a relationship with anyone or wanting to have sex with anyone other than Gabi. I've never sex chatted with anyone (this wouldn't count since it is public and my W can and will read all of this) due to porn or otherwise.
I would mention, there are men out there who couldn't give a flying flip about sex, porn, or climaxes. They are certainly in the minority, but they are there. So while I'm not one of them, there are men who rarely, if ever, masturbate or look at porn. Many men saying they don't would be lying, but some could be telling the truth. Just like I can truthfully say I was a virgin until I married Gabi, and I've never had sex with any other woman but her. To me that's special that I can offer that exclusive union of love to her. Until her A, she could have said the same thing. But that is something that died in the A and we'll never get back. She married another man physically, and now we are remarried in the true sense of the word.
Sorry for the long post. But I hope I answered your questions somewhere in there. ;)
I am like Gabi, I have always fantasized as a means to an end. In most cases I can't "get there" without some kind of fantasy. Although it doesn't necessarily involve images of real-life people or even myself. They are figures in my imagination that I developed when I was very young.
jay --
Hello and welcome to the group. As you've noticed, I have pursued online sexual relationships, albeit under inappropriate circumstances. As for video porn, I don't watch pornographic videos that often, but I do read erotica. I'm generally more stimulated by words than images.
I don't mind if my partner uses porn or masturbates, but I've never been in a relationship where either of these activities compromised my partner's interest in me. In my experience, frequency of masturbation isn't necessarily proportional to the amount of partner sex a person is having.
Out of curiosity, why would it be bothersome for you if your partner masturbated or used porn without you?
Hm. I find this question surprising as for me it is the obvious one (kind of like our solar system has one sun), but I will make an effort.
1. Because this means porn and or masturbation are more attractive/satisfying than being with me and I don't want to be in a relationship where I am the second choice and not the preferred one.
2. I can't think of 2 right now. I think number one is it. Wait. I got it. This would mean that I am not getting enough sex because my partner is doing it with somebody else (even if its just himself).
This of course does not apply if I am travelling and thus my partner cannot have sex with me. There is still phone/Skype sex though. Very rewarding and interesting.
You seem to assume that if your partner ever wants to look at porn or touch themselves, it means they are prioritizing that over sex with you. I just don't think this way, but then again, I have a very high jealousy index. And as I said in my last post, my partners' use of porn/masturbatory activity hasn't ever made them less interested in me, so I haven't experienced having to "compete" with porn.
When I masturbate, it's often out of boredom or to relieve tension (any kind of tension, not just sexual). The idea that this would make me less interested in sex with a partner is honestly alien to me! Maybe it's because I'm a woman and our arousal patterns are different? If I've masturbated and my partner turns up for sex, it's still on.
Please reread my post carefully.
Notice that I said if I was willing, ready and available and he would still go to the bathroom and chose to masturbate with porn magazine. I never used the word ever. Do not imply that I said things I didn't please. If you didn't understand something I wrote - ask for clarification.
Men and women obviously have different arousal patterns as well as anatomical and physiological capacity and you will not find many men who will be able to have sex with their partner right after they masturbated or even soon after.
I do understand that someone would feel hurt/disappointed if their partner chose to use porn *instead* of having sex with them. I have never been confronted with this, but hypothetically I can understand it.
What I had in mind when I asked this question was people who are in relationships, who object to their partner's use of porn when they are not around or are otherwise unavailable (asleep, busy, not in the mood, etc)
Even so -- Last time I went to visit my current partner, he had masturbated 5x that day (I assume he uses porn at least some of the time, but I don't ask) and he still had sex with me 4x. So I still don't view it as a threat. Maybe I would with a different partner but so far it's never been an issue.
Being a man, I can speak to this issue. Most men after a climax need a period of recovery before they can go again. How long can vary, and some men can recover fairly quickly, which may have been the case with the man you mentioned, though masturbation and having sex don't necessarily mean a climax. But I think you'd find that a nine-climaxes-a-day man isn't the norm. I know the most I've ever had in one day is four. When I was younger, I needed a minimum of four hours after a climax before I could reasonably think about doing it again. If one is excited, they can go anyway, and get through the initial pain of going again too early. The few times I've done that, the after climax pain is more noticeable, and it took me longer than normal to recover.
Also, recovery time for a man can lengthen as he gets older. There's no way today at 53 that I could expect to do 4 in a day. 3 would be a rare exception. I might be able to pull off 2 if I'm feeling especially horny. One a day is about the norm. Oh, I could probably masturbate more often than that, but I wouldn't expect to reach a climax much more than twice a day on a good day.
But even in the example of your 9 times a day guy, if you head back to the bedroom because you want some sex, and you catch him cleaning up, it is highly unlikely he'll be able to have sex with you right then. If due to horniness he's able to go again, it will be uncomfortable for him, he probably won't climax unless he's in a very small minority of men who can do the multiple orgasms thing because they need practically zero recovery time, and he won't last very long. In that scenario, you'd have to give up on the idea of sex.
Pre-A, I didn't have to worry about this issue. We had sex on average twice a month, and when we did, I knew it would be on a Saturday morning if nothing prevented it. If something did, I knew it wouldn't be until next Saturday before I had the next shot. So I had little chance of not being ready when she was due to not having recovered from masturbating to a climax. I think I can count on one hand the times I couldn't have sex with her when she wanted it due to not having recovered.
Since the A, now that we have sex multiple times a week, I have to be much more careful. I'll only consider it if I know the next opportunity isn't going to be within the next 12 hours. That has some buffer time in it, but much less time than that, and I will have run the risk of masturbating *instead of* having sex unless I'm particularly sensitive that day.
I know women don't have this built-in restriction to climaxing. That is why most women can, if they want to, have multiple orgasms, one after another. Getting tired, bored, and/or sore being the only restrictions to that. I can give Gabi a climax and immediately have sex with her, and it will still feel good. If she did the same to me, assuming I could even perform to get in, it would certainly not feel good to me except in rare cases (to date, that's only happened once to me, sometime last year, where I had two in one session with Gabi, but that was very, very unusual, I couldn't believe it happened).
Another consideration on masturbation. Pre-A,, Gabi and I lived parallel lives that intersected at points. One of those was when it came to sex. Long story, but the end result is we had sex on average twice a month, the rest of the time I masturbated. She knew I did, and really preferred me to do so rather than be hounding her for sex everyday. That said, I didn't feel comfortable having her knowing when I was doing it. It has always been a very private matter to me.
Post-A, since we for the longest time were having sex daily, even now it is around 3-4 times a week, I masturbated much less for reasons i stated above. It became obvious to me in the light of what we were experiencing how much more of our sex life we shared, thus erasing that as a parallel separate part of our life. Pre-A, I'd estimate 90% of my sex life was experienced without her. Post-A that has flipped.
So even though I didn't cheat, and I masturbated because I didn't have much of any other option to satisfy my sexual hunger, our marriage suffered because I experienced most of my sex life without her. That spilled over into other areas of our marriage. It created a barrier to being as fully one with each other as it should have been. To put it in the Not Just Friends analogy of open and closed windows, that window for her to my life was closed, even though i never opened it to anyone else outside the marriage. In effect, creating some of the same dynamic relationship wise as cheating: a part of my life wasn't shared with her.
So for someone who masturbates a lot, especially when they could have sex if they wanted to (spouse is available and willing), they are closing that window to their spouse. That is part of their life not shared with them, and an area of intimacy lost. I'm not saying never masturbate, but that it should be the exception, not the rule, if one wants to be united as one. When it becomes the norm instead of the exception, it creates that parallel life your spouse isn't invited into.
Now, a note about porn. It has the potential to adversely affect ones sex life in a marriage more than masturbation. Which is why though I fall to temptation from time to time, I do my best to avoid it because I find sex with Gabi generally more satisfying when I've not watched any for a while.
I'm not fully sure why, but my brain and sexual response is more easily aroused and able to climax when I'm watching someone else. Even more so than watching me in the mirror. Porn shoots the dopamine spike up much higher than sex without it. Consequently, upon having consumed some porn for around two-three days, if I try to go without it, it is like hardly any feeling can be generated. The dopamine spike is so paltry, it doesn't even compare to the one that porn can create in me. Likewise, after a few days, the porn becomes less effective. To get the same spike, I'd then need to find something more exciting, new, etc. Many people, because of this, go further, sex-chats, video chats, more erotic types of porn, etc. I always stopped using it, and it would take around two weeks for full normal feelings to return.
In my experience, and I don't think I'm all that unique in this, watching much porn at all made it near impossible to get very excited and to climax with Gabi when I did get the chance. In that way, watching porn made me less accessible to Gabi sexually.
I would imagine fantasizing would have some of the same effects, though in women it wouldn't stop you from performing, just maybe it isn't as exciting without the fantasy. But from a guy's standpoint, who usually can't watch porn while having sex, it can affect his ability to perform when needed, unless he too is good at fantasizing. Some men are. I'm not one of them.
Anywho, those are some issues that can also play into this part of the relationship, and how masturbation and porn can negatively affect it beyond the fears of a BS that it will feed into another A.
Kinda more surprised that bothered much with it if it wasn't to get me off. I've never seen it I place of me. If he mastubates it's with me usualy because I'm just looking for quick. When we do have sex, it doesn't matter how I say let's make it a quickie, he doesn't like quickie. So he takes a little extra time. So masturbating is my only sure fire way of actually getting off quickly.
If I found him viewing porn and jerking off when I am available and wanting to tether do that with him or have sex, I would have a problem. It would feel like cheating.
Especially since he has cheated, I think I'm more sensative to it. It's hard to get unbiased opinion when people here are on one side or the other with regards to cheating. It would be interesting to pose this question on a board where infidelity is not at the forefront of their relationshipsm. I would be curious to see if the response would be vastly different.
Rent the movie Don Jon. It explores this theme quite thoroughly. Unfortunately, what it presents is too common now days, except for the part where the problem is solved -- that part is pure holywood.