I'm glad you posted on this site as well as on the CA site. This is a good group that could use a little beefing up.

I'll post my reply here, because I get notifications here, but not Infidelity.

I don't think even a healthy marriage with no affairs should have "complete privacy." While, sure, maybe a diary or journal could be private, there should be no expectation of privacy with emails and cell phones, etc., in a marriage. Especially after an A, as without it trust can't be rebuilt and rebuilding is doomed from the start. But even without the A, a healthy marriage has no secrets that would affect the relationship if the other person knew.

And by not having privacy, I'm not suggesting a healthy marriage isn't a trusting marriage. I'm not suggesting that no privacy means the spouse is going to be monitoring your communications 24/7 (first months of post-A being an exception). Rather, even without the affair, if I wanted to read my wife's emails, she should allow me to do so. She shouldn't care if I read text messages on her phone. I'm not likely to request that without good cause. After all, she might have bought my bday present from Amazon and I'd ruin the surprise.

I guess the short way to say that is we should both freely have access to each other's communications. If we have something to hide beyond a surprise, that is not good for the marriage.

Which is why when Gabi became transparent, I did too. Gave her my FB, email, cell phone passwords. I inform her anytime I'm going to meet with another woman, for whatever reason. I believe this is a two-way street. If she was going to be that transparent, so would I. After all, it isn't like I have anything to hide from her. Pulling the privacy card is, in my opinion, a huge red flag something is wrong.

Married people don't get privacy. Cell phones and email and FB are open to spouses. All passwords disclosed and either party gets to answer each other's phone/texts.

BF/GF -- case by case basis, but generally trust is earned. If you have a BF/GF whose email or phone you think you have to creep on, FORGET THEM and MOVE ON.

Oh, and BTW, if it is all open, spouses generally won't spend their time checking on each other. So open it up completely. I bet even the most insecure spouse won't check more than twice a year on a faithful spouse.

I know when I can trust my H, and when not too. When his cell phone becomes "hidden/off limits" well dude you just ratted yourself out. My or his journal/diary is absolutely 100% none of my business to read, as is mine. If I decide to let him or read it to him that is my decision. Doing so is a very big deal to me. That is my 1%. and it is his, if he so decides to have one. I leave my computer open, my cell is usually around somewhere, and he has always been allowed access to it. Besides he knows how to delete what he doesn't want me to see, as I do him. If I have a surprise for him, I take care of it and then delete or save it. The only time I didn't want him to have my cell phone was when his text messages where going to my email. I didn't want him to know I had this birds eye view. He knows now, it's been deleted since Jan, and I have no interest in being a detective again. I use to give him the 1% I could be wrong, not now. If I even suspect old behaviour I won't check up on him, or find my proof, history gave me the proof, I need not traumatize myself more, and he knows this. He is transparent with me about everything. Things I don't care or worry about. Some things he believes I think or feel are so 4-6 years ago, and I have told him to. He says he has realized that I am not the person I was years ago, I don't (with exception of my relapse in the cycle, I let it consume and take over my well being From Oct to Jan) let things I can't control, control me. He does it for himself and to keep himself accountable, which is great, I appreciate that, but I just can't consume myself with that anymore and have learned not to obsess over it. I have access to everything, you are right, when we are transparent, honest, we usually don't even check in or check up. My H has asked me too. Now why would I do that when he is asking me too.. ?? If he reverts to old behaviour and defensive again. Well, time will tell I guess.

those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing

Just wondering...but does transparency include financials? I have always been very private about my finances with my husband.

I would say yes. I think in general it breeds a level of autonomy not healthy for a relationship. I don' t mean you necessarily avoid separate accounts, but that if one spouse wants to see the transactions, you log in and show him. You discuss major buying decisions. You don't have anything to hide.

Even more true post-A, as any hiding can cripple trust building. Private financial accounts tend to be used to hide hotel costs, dinners with the OP, giving them money, hidden cell phone bills, etc. So naturally a BS would need to see there are no gotchas hiding in there to rebuild trust.

Gabi had her own income source and bank account. I never asked to see it, I'm guessing she might have let me if I'd asked, but in practice it was private. I only got an idea of how much she made when I did the taxes. She acted like she barely had enough, but now we are living on it since I lost my job and unemployment ran out. I had been covering the bulk of the household bills with my salary. Now I know she had lots of extra money back then. Whenever I needed some help paying bills, she became very angry about giving up any of her money.

At one point, we decided to combine everything into one bank account. We both have full access to it. She says now that the account gave her too much hidden room to spend money on whatever she wanted, without consulting me. Likewise, I had been in that mode too. And I hoped she wouldn't find out about certain purchases because I knew she'd have a hissy fit, if not openly, internally. But I had only clues what she spent her money on. Was always surprised when she was able to come up with a couple hundred on the spur of the moment to help pay a bill. But she always acted like doing so was ruining her plans for the money, and made me feel guilty for even asking.

One of the ways Gabi has grown over the past two years is in relation to not worrying about finances. She's had plenty of opportunities to work on that. I'm not suggesting that everyone combine bank accounts, but it is a level of trust and intimacy, and avoids autonomous mindsets that keeps you apart instead of sharing your lives.

In either event, keeping finances totally private, as in not letting your spouse see your income and what you spend your money on, is a negative in a marriage, and deadly to rebuilding after an affair. Bottom line, we like control, and a private financial asset is a measure of control. Needed if you're planning on divorce, or maybe a BS that feels a need to protect themselves with a CS who isn't being cooperative, but a killer for a CS to have, and in general not a good situation for a marriage.

Ok...thanks cole.

The reason why I ask is because as I said I have always been very private about my financials. This is because of my ex I was with where I was very open about my money and we had joint a/c's. He would end up just spending more than he could afford and when we broke up I ended up being heavily in debt and knew I wasn't going to get any help repaying from my ex. So from then I decided to not be so open anymore, and my finances were always private. Also because I didn't want my husband to know how much in debt I was when we were dating. I worked very hard to clear my debts and now have savings which my husband knows about but just not the exact figures. He also knows how much I earn as we work for the same company and I did leave my wage slips lying around.

I also got a new credit card at the beginning of the year and did add my husband's name on it which is something I said I would never do again when I broke up with my ex. I did this however, because I trusted my husband to not do what my ex did. So potentially he would've had access to my transactions as I only used that card for majority of purchases.

So whilst I don't exactly mind him seeing my transactions as I don't have anything to hide, I just didn't want him seeing how much savings I have as I didn't want him to want to use my money to clear his debt (I did this with my ex). I have never been stingy with my money. In fact I was the one who financially supported him as he always said that he had no money. He lived in my house rent free and bill free. When I asked about going out etc he would always say he had no money so I would end up paying or we would stay indoors instead.

Funny though, he was never thinking about his debt when he was having his affair and splurging on her!

Thank you for the advice Cole. I will take this into consideration depending on how co-operative my husband is. Right now the affair is still continuing even though he says he wants me! We will be starting counselling soon so I will see how that goes and whether he stops the affair or not.

Well, I also think there is a difference between being transparent and not letting someone who has shown themselves to be irresponsible with money having access to it. And certainly if your CS isn't transparent about their affair, continued contact, etc, you'd be wise to reciprocate the lack of transparency of your finances. Trust would have to be built to open yourself up in that way.

IOW, transparency is opening an intimacy channel, saying "I trust you with this." If he's failing to be transparent, then as far as intimacy goes, it won't do you much good to be as well.

In my healing steps for the BS articles, I talk about Shirley Glass's window analogy in Not Just Friends. When a CS opens a window to the AP, through secrecy, they are closing off that part of their life from the BS, closing that window to the BS. I make the point, in that case, that the BS should mimic the CS, by closing windows to the CS. Not to open them up to someone else, but to mirror the actions of the CS back to them. They won't let you see their phone? You lock yours down and don't give them the password. Having a secret bank account with money stashed away for "in case" would be another example. Eventually, you'd tell him about it when you felt you could trust him enough with the info, and you felt he was being transparent. He opens a window, then you can open a window.

The main reason I was ready to be transparent with Gabi early on was because I knew she was being so to me. If I suspected she had anything still to hide, I wouldn't have jumped on that mutual transparency wagon so quickly.

I have a little bit of a difference of opinion here. People should be able to have privacy in certain circumstances. I think when EVERYTHING is transparent then someone is not their own person. In a healthy relationship there should be still room for independence or you suck the life out of your partner!! Not good for an adult to be controlled and unable to be their own person..
Heard

I'm not sure that is a difference of opinion, though it might be on particulars. I don't think anyone has said everything. I've always said a healthy marriage, both should be transparent over anything pertaining to the relationship. The original post mentioned cell phones and text messages. Another commenter asked about finances. Especially post dday, refusing to let one's spouse have free access to them is a deal breaker.

If one is in a codependent relationship, abusive relationship, or any relationship where the transparency is a one way street, that type of situation can be used to control the other. Not being transparent can also be used to control the other as well. Prime example is cheating, but one could give others like the husband who buys a boat without including the wife in the decision.

The more transparent you are with someone, the more you trust them to not abuse that intimacy. The more that trust is violated, the less intimacy you have, and less transparency as a result. The only way to rebuild that trust is to be transparent again, opening one's self up to another. Hiding things results in less trust and less intimacy.

Some people, due to past experiences, have trouble being intimate with another, due to lack of trust.

I'm fully transparent with Gabi. I seem to have a decent life and don't feel drained at all. I'm an individual, and if I thought it best, could separate and distance myself from Gabi, become less transparent. But that would be heading toward ending the marriage as I would deem it unhealthy if I chose to do that and would be giving up on it.

In essence, if I have something to hide from Gabi, that is a negative thing for our relationship. Marriage is about bonding, not separating. If one feels the relationship is not able to be transparent due to unresolved issues, then obviously it isn't healthy.

my H had lots of privacy before I discovered the extremity of his betrayal. Post discovery, I would not pry, because if he really wants to cheat, he'll cheat.

What I WISH I had access to, is the discovery he makes at counseling, as to how he got to this place if such dangerous betrayal and why he no longer has the urge to act out with porn and anonymous hook ups. His new "secret life" us with his therapist who has refused to includE me in H's counseling.

How can I ever know that it won't happen again. Or something ELSE that he hides from me????

I've always told my H that I wouldn't do anything on my phone or comuter that I wouldn't do in front of him. He still feels differently. Since he has a lock on his phone (even though I figured it out) I put one on mine to see if it would bother him and nothing.

Well there is the offering of transparency and how far the spouse takes that. I don't hide anything from my H and he doesn't seek. However when he needs to use any item i freely offer my pw to him. I pull up emails and fb stuff to show him. I leave my phone around.

He will show me whatever I ask for. I do believe that full transparency should be offered by both. Marriage is uniting 2 lives and there should be no secrets. Secrets are what destroyed my marriage and the honesty is what builtit back up.

We are currently in a rough patch because of a recent disclosure. Another secret from back in the cheating days. It's not what that secret was that is causing me to doubt my trust but simply that there was still more, still a secret added to all the secrets from back then.

once you have trust you don't take advantage of spying on the spouse.