My grandpop was DNR. He passed peacefully in his sleep without any intervention. Anything they would ahve done would have caused serious pain. While that would start on a downward trend with meds, it would have been just a few weeks to months of ever increasing interventions and pain.

Mom fought all the way. The last time I saw her alive, she actually said if she had know what lay in store 9 months earlier (when two of us wanted to let her go home to heaven) she would have rather chosen that. Sadly, my sister had the medical power and like to play martyr and demanded treatments that just prolonged severe suffering.

Seeing both, I'd choose to allow nature to take it's course as peacefully as possible. I nearly died in horrible pain and know that god gave us plants that are part of nature that relieve pain. If he did that , he meant for us to have relief.

Be aware that this could end quickly. Once they are injured or sick at this age and stage, they tend to fail rather dramatically.

You are already a great daughter because you are looking at things objectively before the emotions cause you to make a choice wrong for mom or yourself.

Hang in there - you can do it. Just do the best you can with the information you have at the time. Then try not to should on yourself for your decisions.

I went through this with my father just 6 weeks ago so I'll share my experience.

All his life my father stated his wishes. He did not want to be kept alive if there was no hope for recovery. Well we all know that you do not recover from dementia. And there comes a point when your body shuts itself down.

Approximately two weeks before his death the cardiologist told my parents that he needed a pacemaker change. Well they did it because it seemed like it might help. Dad was having some good moments and wanted to try. It did nothing except make him weaker.

For my dad the end came after another fall. He was taken to the hospital where they realized very quickly that the dementia was gaining control of his body. He had very few brief lucid moments. After two days he had none.

The decision to move to hospice was made quickly and definitively. This is what dad wanted. When there was no hope for recovery he wanted to go quickly and painlessly. The call from the nurse saying that they had put him on morphine and other meds was a clear signal that it was days and hours.

We had one very calm evening when we held hands and stared at each other. I don't know if he knew who I was but he knew my mom and I were there and he was at peace. That is my last memory of my father. The next few days were spent watching him fall into a deeper and deeper sleep until that last morning.

I have no regrets over how my dad passed....he went the way he always wanted to go. I would suggest abiding by your mothers wishes. When she is no longer able to be kept comfortable speak with the doctors about pain medication. I don't think that comfort is the same as medical intervention.

Thanks for your reply Sunny.

I hadn't thought about the consequences of mom not wanting medical intervention when the time came. Had decided that she would be DNR but receive medication to ease the pain and suffering.

I had only gone to CS funerals where the family was all in step with the family member. There was no discussion, or sharing, on how it ended. The ending was just a given. No meds.

Now I know what a person's strong faith can let them suffer with.

Is it wrong, since CS was her life. As I remember, all the decisions were made the same way. No medical intervention.

That would be nothing for the pain. Just enduring it to the end.

Do I go with her wishes or the fact that I don't want her to suffer????

Tigg, your reply came while I was writing my reply to Sunny.

Thanks

When my dad passed away. Also my uncle and aunt that were Christian Scientists also. This question didn't arise.

They died of heart problems so went very quickly.

It is lingering illness that is causing me so much angst.

Yesterday I did see what a devout, Christian Scientist chose.

Would her, true wishes, want to have the medical intervention.

She trusted me to do the right thing,.

I do not follow the Christian Science faith. I was brought up that way and did adhere until I was in my 20's.

I understand that in the end I need to be able to live with my conscience.

Hi,

I don't have answers....just empathy for you. I'm wondering about when the time comes with my mom. It would be so much easier if she had given me some guidance of what her wishes are.

Do I understand you right? You're not sure if pain medications are considered medical intervention?

I will be thinking of you and I am glad you came back!

Christian Scientists are not drummed out of the church, if they chose to see a doctor and such.

My mom was not like that. She was a strict adherent.

No meds, is no meds. Nothing at at. Nothing for pain.

This is driving me nuts. Talked to my sister tonight and she thinks pain meds are good.

Though mom is pretty well non compis mentis, she still does ask about the pills, that we have lied to her about, that she takes at the home for sleep. We tell her that they are "tablets". Often she doesn't want to take them.

The problem is that I know she is still a Christian Scientist and still wants to lead her life that way. I lie about the sleeping pills because outherwise I think she is so disruptive in the night, that they might kick her out. Then I have no idea what we would do.

Death seems to be a different issue. We signed the Health Care Directive they are to follow at the home, with what we wanted. No I am thinking that this is wrong.

We should end her life the way she would want to.

The problem with that is we might see her suffer from pain. Don't know if I would cave, give the drug, then early myself, from guilt.

Know you guys can't tell me what to do. Is helping just to be able to sort out my thoughts by posting these notes.

Gosh you certainly are between a rock and a hard place! You wish to honor your moms feeliings yet you hate to see her suffer. YIKES!
If indeed one day she forgets her CS do you think she will take something then? In the meantime could you tell her its a vitamin tablet?

I have lived in horrible pain all my life. There is nothing wrong with relieveing pain. God sends some of his angels with skin on.

I would say give her the pain meds anyway you have to. if it is going to cause you serious suffering, You have a right to keep her from suffering
Do you have a pastor that you can talk to about this?
If she is trusting you with her care, then you have to us the judgement that you would for yourself.

It is difficult. But I think if she was more worred about the religion, she would have chosen someone from her church who understands this totally.

Other than that, she will go to heaven if she uses pain meds or not. I seriously doubt that god is worried about taking some medications. He created the plants that make opium for a reason. He does not want his children to suffer.
You are already doing it right because you are worried about doing it right. If you did not give a crude, you would just do what you want without caring about any of this. That is called your conscience.
Praying for some people for you.

Take care.

Sunny, I am so sorry that you have had to endure so much pain. Don't know too much about heaven because CS do not believe in either heaven, or hell. They are not going to either. To them their is no beginning (do not celebrate birthdays) or end to life. Extremely complicated for me to understand and I was brought up in the faith.

Part of my problem is that she did trust me to make the "right decisions" for her. I don't think that the thought ever entered her mind that I wouldn't let things end the way she wanted.

CS is a very personal religion. There are no leaders in the church. Each member does intensive study of the bible and it's companion book "Science and Health by Mary Baker Eddy". They don't get together for anything other than the services on Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings. No weddings, funerals or any other stuff is held in the church building. Most weddings are civil ceremonies.

I find that very cold. I go to a different church now. It is a real community where people care about each other. To put it in a capsule they believe that, if they truly believe and understand, that they will have no issue with all the bad crap.

Truly pisses me off that since mom became sick (and she has been a member of the same church in our city since 1966) you can count on one hand, the number of people from the church that have visited her. That is in a time of over 6 years. But that is another rant for another day.

Back to the subject at hand.

Funerals are usually held in a funeral home with a member of the church doing readings from their two textbooks.

My mom would spend hours a day studying. When she was working outside of the home she would get up an hour early to be sure that she got her studying done.

It was her lifeline. Pretty well all of her life decisions were based on the teachings of her church. I have a brother and a sister and all of us were brought up that way. No meds. All we got in the way of health care was the dentist and mandatory shots.

I am sure that the dedication that she had to her faith is making me waffle on this issue.

Am getting around the the way of thinking that if the dementia is so bad when it comes to the end, and their is no faith to comfort her, I cannot let her suffer her comfort will have to come with pain meds.

At least that is how I feel at this moment in time. Goodness knows how I will feel when I am laying in bed tonight mulling this over.

Understand that this is my decision but I really do appreciate the help that you guys have been giving me, in just listening.

At

I am sorry if I said anything to offend. I know nothing about CS.

My personal opinion is that is seems pretty odd compared to what I read in the bible. But I am no expert.

No matter what you do, there is guilt. My sister was forcing mom to have more chemo and surgery so she could get attention from being the "nurse" to mom. The last 9 months were very bad. 6 weeks before the end mom finally shared that she was tired with me.
Even though I did the best that I could to help her, I still felt very guilty for not stepping in sooner.

you are already grieving the upcoming loss.Guilt is pretty normal when we are grieving.

Do you have a pastor to help you with decisions? A deacon that you trust?
You do have the right to enjoy the time that you have left with mom.
And to let the staff at the facility know that they can do what is necessary to keep her there.

I think that when the time comes you will make the right decision and do what is best for your Mom. It will tear at you no matter what you do because it's just a hard decision. In my family we have the good fortune to know - both me and my brother - that my Mom believes in quality of life rather than quantity. She is 87 now but she has a living will and we know her wishes and will follow that. When my stepfather was 58 he had quadruple bypass surgery that failed. He never awakened from the surgery and when the surgeon said that he had brain damage and if he recovered at all into consciousness he would be a vegetable my Mom knew what to do. She told the doctors not to put him on life supports. When her father had his final series of strokes and lay in a hospital in a coma she had told the doctors not to prolong his life with tube feeding. Some miscommunication occurred and they put the tubes in. Her brother could not do what needed to be done but Mom knew what her Dad's wishes were and had to tell them to take out the feeding tubes. It was hard but she knew it was the right thing to do and it was what her father wanted. If her time comes and further treatment would only prolong life with no quality hospice is an excellent organizaiton to call in. But if she is not at the point of letting go and further medical treatment would help her regain quality of life, I just believe at that time you will know what to do and do the thing that is best for your Mom. You'll figure it out somehow. You don't want your Mom to suffer and your choices will be made with that and your love for her in mind. It won't be easy but making the right decision in times like these can often be the hardest thing to do. It's the mystery that kills us also - not knowing what will happen and what sort of decisions we'll have to make. I hope in your case the answer will be easier for you. Perhaps something like a heart attack will take her. But if it does not and there are decisions to be made trust in yourself and your siblings. You love her and you will make the best choices.

I would talk with a Hospice organization. They are phenomenal at understanding and working with different belief systems and cultures. They are a wealth of knowledge and support.

I really feel for you. In the end you have to live with the deccsion. I don't know anything at all about CS. But if feelings count I think there is a differance between trying to keep her alive at any cost. Or realizing she is going to die and helping her find comfort. Your not makeing a life and death dession. The dession that you are making is whether or not she is going to suffer when she doesn't have to because there are means to keep her comfotable. Even your aunt you mentioned she was in a hospital bed for 6 years someone had to be doing everything for her except they couldn't live her life. Maybe they would have felt much differanty if they would have put themselves in her shoes. I'm sorry I'm not much help. I wish for you the very best. And I think if anything you have put your self in your Mother's shoes and that is why you can't let her suffer. Because it is not natural.

Thanks for all of the opinions that you gave me.

I have been thinking about this a lot and actually do have some kind of plan in mind.

If she is concious and is asked about pain meds but refuses, I will go her route even if that means that we have to watch her suffer

If we can't tell whether she is a CS or not then I will let them go with the meds for pain and suffering.

Even though I feel that I have made my decision, and hopefully will not be swayed by the emtion of the time into doing something I shouldn't do.

Even making the partial decision I have already come to, it didn't do it alone. Of all the people that I have tried to talk to about this, there has been one person that understands.

Velma has been a caregiver all her life. That is just what she did. Her husband was at home, much longer than he should have been. His dementia was very serious but she wouldn't let him be placed in a home. In spite of all that she was a friend to everyone. Always remembered people's birthdays and would put on parties for them. Very active in the church. Served on many committees.

On Christmas Eve, a couple of years ago, she had a stroke. She went from being a woman that was peoples "rock" to someone that had practically no personal capabilities at all. Her entire left side was paralyzed and she lost most of her speech.

Of course, in the course of minutes her life changed forever. Both she and her husband had to go immediately to care homes. Her husband was on the dementia unit and she had a room (that she had to share) in another care home, across the city.

The only reason that I went on with Velma's story is to set up why she was a help. I had talked around with no help, then I went to visit Velma in her long-term care facility. I told her my problem and she immediately she said that she understood that (considering my mom's faith)why this is so difficult.

I did talk it over with her and hope to be able to go see her this weekend.