PS. It is late and I just looked back and saw misspelling and words that came from some place random.

Oh well...we can giggle some. LOL

P

Well some is correct and some isn't. Here is what I know

Skilled care, either nursing home or rehab, is covered by medicare at 100% for 20 days immediately after discharge from a hospital with an inpatient 3 day minimum stay. If you end up back in the hospital before the 20 days and stay another 3 days the 20 days resets, although there is another number of day issue. After that rehab can be covered for up to 100 days with a copay. If your mom has other insurance this might be covered. As far as I know a nursing home is not covered past the 20 days unless you have LTC insurance.

Costs depend on where you live. In general a metropolitan area seems to run about $2-4,000/mo for independent living, $6,000 for assisted living and $10,000/mo for full nursing home. Of course you can find some for more and some for less. It depends on the quality of the facility, location and amount of care provided. Again unless you have LTC insurance this is all your cost. You can see why many people will try to keep a family member at home as long as possible. Aides generally run $20/hr on the books. It's very important to make sure you are paying them legally if you expect to need a nursing home and medicare assistance since medicare will want proof of where the money went.

Medicare lookback has changed substantially. It used to be 3 years but that changed. Now it is 5 years or 7 years. What this means is the period of time that Medicare will look back to see what the person owned. If you didn't move assets prior to 7 years ago Medicare will expect the receiver to pay an equal amount in care expenses. So if grandma gives her house to a grandchild 2 years ago and needs a nursing home, medicare will expect the grandchild to pay for the nursing home in an amount equal to the value of the house. This is to prevent people from trying to hide their assets at the last minute. This lookback also applies to any gifts. So if mom gives $5,000 to a cousin Medicare could say that mom has to use up all of her money plus $5,000 which they assume she can get back from the cousin. The dangerous part of this is that it is up to mom to get the money back. Medicare just figures out what you have plus what you should have under their rules. Then they figure out what your nursing home costs and figure when they will start paying.

If mom still owns her home and she is the last surviving spouse and is terminal medicare can expect you to sell the house now. They do not recognize family members living in the home as having a right to stay. The lean is only if there is a spouse who is living in the home. Then they let them keep the home but put a lean against it when it sells at a later date.

The good news is that if your mom put her assets in a trust they might be protected. The only way to know for certain would be to talk to the lawyer who drew up the trust. My understanding is that if the patient doesn't have control of the trust it might be protected. But if it is for the benefit of the patient you might lose it anyway. Most people are afraid to use a trust in a way that would truly protect their assets because they have to truly give up control.

This is how I understand the rules. You should setup an appointment with your mom's lawyer to find out the details of her trust and anything else that might apply. Most estate lawyers have accountants that they work with. They can be a God send.

This whole subject angers me to the core. If only parents would trust us enough to transfer assets BEFORE something happens!!!!! GRRRRRRR!!!!

A lawyer MAY be able to help you protect some of it but trhe lookback period keeps getting longer and longer. I THOUGHT ours was three years and just learned it is now five with potential to go to SEVEN! So basically if parents have not gifted BEFORE its too late we are all SCREWED!!!

But of course very few of t hem wish to do that.

So either we taje care of them ourselves or they lose everything and nothing left behind for the longsuffering adult child!!!!

Sorry to be a downer but thats the way it is

Also my mom and dad are being sued by the state because they forgot my Aunt owned 40% of thier house when she went on medicaid. At the time my Dad thought they could not touch the house, but he was wrong.

Now when the house sells we have to pay 80K back and we might not even get that out of it.

My parents took care of my aunt for 50 years because she was disabled and that kept her out of the system for a very long time but nobody cares about that.

I feel so badly for ppl living with the parent who think they will always have a place to live because unless they take care of the parent until the end it aint gonna happen!!!!

Gifting is not always a great answer. You have to trust the person you are transferring your asset to. Also if they have and accident or are sued "your" asset can be lost. Or if they get sick and have bills it will be used for them. Another issue is the dollar value. The IRS allows you to gift tax free $15,000 a year to each person. So a house transfer would create a taxable event. It would cost a bit to protect the asset.

Then comes the issue if there are multiple inheritors. Do you trust everyone to keep "your" assets separate from theirs? What if one kid goes to LV and blows your money but the others keep it? Or one invests in their business and when you need it they can't get the cash out?

The real answer is LTC insurance. There are lots of types of policies that will cover the cost of extended care. Of course not many of us want to pay those premiums for years and almost no one wants to think about ending their lives in a nursing home. If we were really smart we would want insurance to make sure we can be in a really great nursing home!!


From a different view point I agree the system is all messed up. Someone who never saves a penny, goes on cruises and blows their money gets medicare. Someone who works hard, saves, goes without can end up spending every penny they have before medicare steps in. Just doesn't seem fair. Why worry about the future? Of course this is a big part of why this country is a mess.

Well spoke Tigg. Im just having a really bad day.

Trojan I know you have had a rough time with your parents estate. Unfortunately so many people are afraid of lawyers and/or think they can handle things themselves. Even with a lawyer things get messed up.

Years ago your parents probably should have had your aunt sign over the house to them or setup a family trust for everyones benefit. The government still would have gotten a share most likely but it probably would have been picked up sooner.

Also Medicare can only take up to your aunts share of the house, no matter what the bill was. So if the house sold for $100,000 after all expenses (lawyer, real estate comm., repairs) and your aunt owned 40% they could claim $40,000. If it sells for $30,000 they would only get $12,000.

Unfortunately all those years your parents took care of your aunt they were probably entitiled to SS as a caretaker. And they could have "charged" your aunt for her care out of her portion of the house. Things a lawyer could have advised them about.

Either way the government always wins when it comes to taking a lifetime of working and saving for that retirement that seems not to come for when it is time you are too old to do anything and the money is all spent by the nursing homes they drain all the assets first with out of pocket then the Medicare kicks in but they want to make sure you are poor before they take over. That system makes me sick that is why I took care of my father here at home till he died and why I am taking care of mom here at home. With my dad we would have spent everything and nothing would have been left for moms care.

Shur you are right. Taking care of a loved one at home can be a huge money saver. From as early as mother-daughter homes where two generations live together to accessory apartment where mom or dad moves in after their spouse passes. These are great money savers. They allow savings on living expenses for many active senior years.

They also, if planned well, can lead right into elder care. Children caring for parents can work well. Especially when supplemented by aides and nurses as necessary. Also hospice can come to the home. This isn't for everyone but it can be a lifesaver for both children and parents.

For me the key is planning and doing it right. Instead of waiting for the crisis plan for it. Sit down with your parents to figure out what they want and what you want. Then make whatever changes are necessary and possible. I think having a separate apartment or living space is really important. Why should our elderly parents be forced into living as tenants? And why should adult children return to their childhood bedroom? This also makes it easier if outside caretakers are necessary. Who wants a nurse walking around their home?

I know a few people who did this well in my opinion. One was my maternal grandmother. When she couldn't handle her own home she paid to have my uncles two car garage converted into a nice apartment. She had an entrance into the house as well as her own entrance with a nice deck. A nice living room, galley kitchen and bedroom. All this was connected to my uncles large kitchen.

My BILs parents also did a nice move. When they were in their 60s he had a heart attack and had to stop working. Finances were tight. So they sold their house and used the little money they had to build an apartment on their daughters house. For many years they helped watch the grandkids but also had their own lives. As time went on their daughter was there for them but they also had their own place for other children to visit without imposing on the daughter they lived with.

My dream has always been to build a retirement house with a section for each of my kids. A place that they can feel is their home within my home. We'll see how this works out. Of course my space will be one floor with easy accessibility. I've learned alot from watching my inlaws and parents.

My family was the type that never wanted to talk about stuff like that. You did not discuss"family secrets".

Thats why to get anything done at all I have spent the last three years of my life "pulling teeth" to get things in order.

ANOTHER law that totally pisses me off is that since I am the only child and POA I can't pay myself anything. Not that I really want or need to go that route but its just damn unfair.

Im taking good care of my parents and it really makes me angry that the government treats me like a criminal.

Even though Mom and I get on quite wqell these days there are still times when she would make a saint want to strangle her.

MY health is being effected here too!!!!!!

What law are you talking about. I'm curious since I was never told this by our lawyer.

What about mom paying some of the utilities or for food? You can't be expected to pay her expenses and this is a way to get some money out of their estate.

I'm curious about what your mom thinks about her finances? Does she understand? Also what does she think of you taking some of her money?

My mom has been very strange about money. Almost everything is in her trust and I pay all her bills from there.. We have a joint account which is the only thing she can access now. Every time I get a check she wants it put in that account "so she has some mad money". This is always followed by where can we go to run away, which is moms long time question.

Mom set up a joint ckg account with my mom my sister and me on the account since a joint account cannot be included in the trust we figured that would be the best way to set it up to pays bill and groceries or maintain on the house mean while there are auto direct deposits that go into that account if I need to go to the doct or dental any emergencies that come up I w use her account to pay those emergencies. When the time comes we can transfer all the money back into one of the trust accounts that way that account does not go into probate. It works out very well.

I know this discussion has been on DS before. However, it is taking some time for me to digest the ins and outs. So thank you for going through this again. The outline will help me focus my appointment with the lawyer.
We have several attorneys in my family but they are not discrete. One of them is my brother who had not visited for 11 years ( until two days before Dad died. ) Nice huh.
So, I am going to look at the Trust. Went to do this today but Mom had a tantrum over things in the house not being how she always had it.
She was so mad about it. Part of what she said was true the other that went with made zero sense. I could only say sounds as though it stresses you. Then I showed her some locally grown strawberries.
Obviously diverting her and tempting her with food.
These inconsistencies are why I now look into her care options. She seems to be slipping. Emotionally. I can not imagine there is no LTC policy. Unless they lived longer than they thought. She doesnt have dental ins either because they had healthy teeth for years. Now she avoids eating certain food because she may break a tooth and has no insurance. Ahhh.
As for the house, it was Quit Claimed to me in 1995. She occupies till end of life. Any money in the bank is POD to me. Anything otherwise is allocated in trust. However, she changed the beneficiaries from what she and Dad had. She will know if I call and check that stuff out so trying to come up with how to get her to do it.
My parents were secretive about everything. Plus she likes to play games. She gets away with sounding very with it on the phone but really does not know what is going on. It is frustrating.
To be continued soon. Thanks again for the info

P

Peaceful I know exactly what you mean. My mom sounds great to an outsider. She will talk stock market and investing. She also scans the headlines of the New York Times every morning so she will throw current events at you. But if you ask a question she can't answer. Often she will say she didn't read the whole article. But even the headlines are getting confused.

My parents were also somewhat secretive. Two years ago my daughter and I visited and I tried to force mom to show me what was going on. I knew about their wills and trusts in general. In fact I had a copy of the early version. But mom didn't want to share any details. When dad was hospitalized last year I forced her to go through her bills and assets. Luckily things were setup very well. One or two things were wrong.

Something important to remember is that normally the lawyer does the legal stuff and then tells you how to re-title the assets and accounts. But it is up to you to do it. No one will check you. Turned out my mom had not changed her checking account and some of the other accounts had errors in the names. Later after dad died mom had to change over a bunch of accounts and it was a mess. I don't know if it was the company or mom or a combination of both. But I do know that even these big companies screw up. Last week mom received a statement on dad's trust, my name and her address. Meanwhile this is supposed to be online only. I had to fax the cover page to the sales rep so he can try to look into this. This is Vanguard Investments which is probably the third largest investment company!! So never assume.

Also read every boring page the lawyer gives you and ask questions. I have found errors in their papers. When mom turned over everything to me last December the lawyer came to her. I read the papers and he ended up going back to his office and coming back again. They are not perfect.

Shur why don't you just use a checking account within the trust to pay bills? I can see having the other account to pay other things like your medical but generally a trust is setup as "for the benefit of" so you can use that money to take care of mom. Also not all trusts are safe from Medicare.

Remember more than $50,000 in personal assets will trigger probate. This includes cash, investments, jewelry, real estate, art work, silverware. The best thing to do is have the lawyer draw up a statement that you are transferring all personal assets into the trust. Then keep a small joint account outside of the trust for miscellaneous things. Probate can cost you $10,000 in legal fees and will tie up the estate for months, even years.

Tigg our lawyer looked into a program she had heard about by which a caregiver contract could be set up for the adult child to be paid up to 1400/ month for all the stuff we do for them. I was not to crazy about it from the get go because it would involve a nightmare of documentation,but we decided to look into it anyway.

Upon further investigation my lawyer found out I would have to give someone else POA because the same person who has POA can't be the paid caregiver. It made both of us angry at the unfairness to only children but oh we'll!

Mom is fine with the money situation now that everything has been worked out. She offers to pay for meals out and every so often we use her pin card for groceries or gasoline which the lawyer said was fine.

We really don't NEED the money. I just feel so terrible for those who do and we are trying to protect family assets just in case something terrible happens