ha ha! Just bear with me as I try to understand................

I confess I am still not convinced we can educate or even motivate enough people to make this viable. As far as education is concerned, conventional education would have to change dramtically from spoonfeeding to pass exams to encouraging youngsters to think critically for themselves (and the establisment may not like that!) Also, I was an educationalist in my earlier years and my experience is that, sadly, some people never do quite grasp the issues. Whether or not, with time and patience, that could change, I don't know but I doubt it. Even if it could, I am not sure where the funding would come from to enable individual tuition if necessary (I mean - when, if ever, do we stop trying to educate?) So, in the system you are suggesting, I still believe we would have to exclude so many. And, we still haven't even covered those who are totally disinterested. Sorry for the negativity.

It was because of the incapacity of some to grasp soo many complex issues at once that I suggested single issue votes but, of course, you are right - totally impractical. And, again, coming back to the ability of a person to take on board different perspectives, I am cynical yet again of how successful that would be. I feel so uncomfortable with this!!!!

I guess we can't please all of the people all of the time.

As for the concept of 'ego', I am happy with your interpretations and I agree vis-a-vis the pride/self esteem distinction. Happy too with your opinion that our similarities should bind us together rather than our differences tear us apart but there is no accounting for human nature/egos! Oh dear!

Also I bow to the personal experience on the recluse/hermit thing. Just as well we are not all the same - ha ha!

y, can understand the discomfort, we've had many bad examples of distorted socialist type systems and even the ones that weren't distorted proved themselves to be unworkable past a couple of generations as people started forgetting the negatives of full-democracy/capitalism...even i became weary and left the cause after being a socialist activist during my university years :/

...till i discovered spirituality and realised that not only we can actually have a capitalist type economy in a socialist perspective but even the governmental system can benefit from that model (what i've been going on about with the non-monopolised government)

on top of that, there's the responsibility angle which i believe was a big player in the cold-war. what i mean there is, in the western democratic/capitalist model, the perspective is that of individuals who have complete free-will over their decisions, whereas in the socialist model, we recognise that we're all interconnected and form each other's learning experience which in turn shapes our minds and forms the basis for our thoughts and actions...so its a case of self-responsibility vs responsibility towards others...i think its obvious which one would benefit manipulative people in power, divide and conquer :( ...and whatever benefits those people is what we're bombarded with in the media and our culture so i'd expect anything against it to feel very uncomfortable.

but, hold onto that discomfort angle for now (unless its too uncomfortable), its helping me analyse this model (how does sociological sound as a name for it?..lol) and i doubt its a workable solution yet, gotta find its faults.

as for the education thing, yes the current system is in a pretty sad state and i'd probably be just as disillusioned if i didn't have a really good example close to me...my mum is a teacher and comes from a long line of teachers, and through her nearly 30 years of teaching has encountered every kind of 'difficult' student there is from ones with learning problems to rebellious ones who hate school...and hasn't had a single student that didn't turn into successful students who enjoy learning...and the secret is the same thing that works as the best solution in every situation - love :) ...loves her students and would even break school rules when needed for their best interests...and that creates a really close mentor/student relationship which enables her to get through to them :) ...and once they start enjoying learning through this, they keep that feeling towards learning throughout their lives (students from many years ago still look her up so we get accounts of this)

......guess we're back to that selectiveness issue for critical positions in society although we have a bit of a loop now as to get good teachers we need a good education system for them (in mum's case it was her parents that provided that) but we need good teachers to provide that :/ ....so again, we need very good testing before allowing people to teach malleable minds, and that's not just testing for knowladge!, teachers need to be part psychologists as well ...better salaries for teachers would also help as it would encouradge people who're perfect for the job but can earn more doing something else, like corporate teaching, to come back to educating new generations.

now, the ego thing - i think your wording there pointed out where we differ in our views on this topic and its the freudian vs spiritual points of view on this topic. as i said in my previous response, the freudian perspective sees the ego(super-ego) as human nature integral to who we are whereas the spiritual perspective sees us as naturally loving, caring mammals who have developed their ego through learning experience and therefore as something that can be removed through more learning. my inclination is towards the latter as i see the loving/caring instincts as essential to the functioning of social animals (a wolf without strong social bonds to its pack would starve by itself).

btw, what you mean by the last comment? think i'm missing out on a funny by not getting a it..lol

btw, re the ego thing, have an old analogy of mine for it and i think its safe here away from fanatics who'd read too much into it:

we left eden by eating from the tree of knowladge, now the only way back is to eat all the fruit on that tree!

lol :)

It is not that I necessarily disagree with you that is making me feel uncomfortable. I am instinctively inclusive and, although your mother appears to have been amazingly successful with her students, I am not sure that we could ever achieve such success universally. It is the concern/danger that such a system could become elitist that concerns me. I like 'sociological' btw.

It may surprise you that I personally have no grouse with your interpretation of ego. Again, it is how you persuade/educate OTHERS to think like yourself. In our primitive days, survival was paramount. Something has happened to us, where this survival instinct has gone a bit too far and our survival instincts have become pwersonal rather than universal. It is strange that the comforts so-called civilization has brought us have made us so complacent and forgetful of the fact that we ARE still dependant on others. I think you are right that this is a learning issue and our acknowledgement of this inter-dependency is vital if we are to continue to live in 'the style to which we have grown accustomed' but, again, I fear that we will always find people who want to compete, who want more than the next man (selfish rather than selfless) I am not saying they are right - I am just not convinced you can banish that type of mentality.

And the last comment? Perhaps I am totally out of order but my response was to your remark "recluses and hermits - nope they sure are not and i can tell that from first hand experience" And if it was MY own quip that it is just as well we are not all the same, I stick with that. We need diversity in life; otherwise life would be dull!

Oh, and the analogy? A bit off the wall but I understand what you are getting at - I think!!!

hmm, either i'm not explaining well or understanding well, probably bit of both...lol...but no, wasn't suggesting you're uncomfortable with disagreeing with me, more that your discomfort with the concept is useful in tracking down faults in it :)

understand the elitism concern there, that's what i was referring to with the corruption of socialism thing, lot of people got badly burnt when it turned to fascism/communism :( ...but again, i guess i'm back to the controlling primitive fears thing, its natural for us to have an aversion to putting our hand in the fire once its been burnt - but we can use the ingeniousness of our minds to put on a welding glove first, especially worth overcoming those fears and finding a workable solution considering what we're reaching for is unity and piece for mankind..

and bummer, that name is taken (http://www.asanet.org/) :(, gotta figure out a new one, any suggestions?

as for the distortion of our survival instincts - i think that's a result of the competitive system we live in, we have more than enough for everyone but live in a system where most have to suffer so that a few can have more than they need :/ ....that turns the situation into one where the biggest danger to us out there are our brothers and sisters :(

....btw, i don't think my interpersonal skills are at a level where i could convince anyone not already aware of spiritual values, i'll leave that to accomplished masters...me the tech geek, i'll help building technology for the new eden...lol...and yes, there'll always be some who will want a cut-throat world, the idea is to build the numbers so such people are not in charge of the world, then we can try to help them too....

..i think i get the last comment now, you mean you're glad not all people experience that?...if so, i agree completely, i highly value what i've gained through my bad times but would not wish such lessons on my worse enemy...if i had any enemies...lol

analogy - we were content just being before we started building concepts such as good, bad, us, them etc...think of a dog that looses a leg, its not going to sit there and get all depressed about not being complete, just gonna run and play on 3 legs....we get smarter, causes suffering...only way to defeat that suffering now is to understand a whole lot more and build a world full of loving, caring people forming a single community....ok, i'm bit more of a dreamer tonight than usual...lol...helps with moods and much more pleasant than stressing we're gonna wipe ourselves out in the next few hundred years :/

"we can use the ingeniousness of our minds to put on a welding glove first" and "i'll leave that to accomplished masters".

OK, sorry that the name has been taken but I need to be convinced this will work before I worry about that! If we really could start such a movement, and there are bound to be other like minded groups out there, I just don't know where we would begin?

And, I like the dreamer (your name implies nothing less although the caged part is interesting!) I had a really soft spot for John Lennon and his song 'Imagine' says a lot.................

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

lol, yes seems like a contradiction there until looked through dreamer eyes, 'we' as in humankind, and as we all have different skills, it would be wise to work together in a way that utilises people for what they're good at - people who have experience in passing on spiritual skills/values would be doing that, people like me would be designing the voting software and teaching those who don't know how to use technology :)

yes, there are a lot of people starting to see the source of the problems and realising that we do need a globally unified and spiritual system....the problem is that most people seem to be stopping at that point and saying once we defeat the evil system we'll work something out together...have you seen 'V for Vendetta'?, one of my favourite movies, especially cause when i get hypo i talk like that guy..lol...and that's very dangerous (leaving the planning till then, not the movie..lol) as it has the risk of turning into anarchy and there's no way we could feed people let alone develop a system in an anarchy :/

but, you right, i should probably do a bit of a research on what's been developing since last time i looked (while back)

owww, that's my favourite song of all time, always makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside :D

caged bit, having the dreams but being trapped by BP from doing anything about them....starting to learn how to work with it now though, hence the flower growing out of the cage :D

Liked the response.

What you describe in working together is what 'civilisation' was meant to be about so the first 'experiment' went wrong - lol Even the spiritual leaders got it wrong!

If our dream system were to ever be given a chance, we would need to engage with like minded people and that is where egos would need to be dismissed if the movement is to achieve anything. I think that generally we do know our own strengths and weaknesses but working together by consensus would not be easy. If it were to flourish, it would need mass appeal.

You know, I hadn't looked closely at your pic and now that I do - I understand - I think!

I am not a film watcher (confess I don't have a lot of patience to sit through anything - something that has happened to me in my later years, I confess - not sure why). Still, I will check it out and, if it is available as a DVD, I might buy or hire it (we don't have a cinema in my town). And I agree with you - we cannot defeat an 'evil system' unless we are clear about the way forward and are totally transparent about our objectives.

Glad you liked the reminder of John Lennon's song (I cry when I hear it!)

When It all comes down to it about the new world order, voting or not, separists movements, we all have to live on this planet.
Human nature is to revolt the system in some way.People or civilizations in smaller communities would be better we will live in better harmony.
Going back to the new world order or the world government system we already have that in someway with the United Nations.

ok, i'll address those responses seperate but i think each relates to other in certain aspects so relevant to both responses:

scarlett - y, that would be my definition of civilization as well :). i think the reason people have been getting it wrong for so long is that most people tend to look at these issues from a single perspective - the ones that tried to achieve this through socialism disregarded the spiritual angle of the need for changing the way we see ourselves (how can ego driven people work together?), and the spiritual people seem to think that we can achieve unity by simply changing that (how can selfless people live if noone is directing infrastructure?)....that's why i'm thinking we need both. doubt my theory would be the ideal solution but maybe in the ballpark...wish we had some political experts here to help us out.

and yes, we need some good leaders to inspire people and create that mass appeal. the main problem we have is that people with those skills are usually well looked after in our current system so bit hard to get exceptional ones that're also idealistic....at least we're starting to get an increase in filmmakers visiting the topic, can only help create more mass appeal :) ...btw, while i'm here, should say although i love that movie (watched it again last night, made me cry again!, i only agree with the methodology there when i'm hypo...lol...when i get like that, i also develop the amount of awareness?/delusion? those guys have about the music of life, maybe they have BP too?...lol..y, itd be on dvd, 2-3 years old now i think...unless the english banned it there, probably don't like the image of people blowing up their iconic buildings...lol

btw, link for 'imagine' : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEOkxRLzBf0 :)


ONEPLANET - your point about smaller communities is an interesting angle. can't sure which thread it was but i also expressed the role size of communities play in pathological behaviour with the differences in gorilla and chimpanzee social behaviours as an example. also, bhutan was also a good example of how well that can work. the 2 main problems we have there is the world's massive population and ignorance that can be caused by people living in isolated communities where there's not much interaction with people different to them and that's how racism comes about :/

...the population factor means that living in small communities would be unsustainable, if all the people that live in large cities right now decided to spread out, we'd have to wipe out what nature we have left to make enough room! maybe at a later stage if we can control and reverse human population growth this could be done but again an idea that's going to be hard to sell. i mean, have a look at most people's opinion on china's 'one child' policy.....

....as for the ignorance factor of small communities, a little easier to solve, again i'll go back to the bhutan example; their system worked because their government was a spiritual monarchy and everyone was trained in spiritual skills/values from childhood, removing any chance of bigotry...but they gone too now, mcdonalds ate them...lol..

...UN? i think the recent wars have adequately demonstrated its irrelevance. for a global government to work, it has to be THE final authority, sort of like our national/state governments where the state government is mainly there for administering their area but the national government is responsible for major issue, highest level of policing and military.


hmm, rambling again...lol...thanx for the thoughts guys :)

I believe you are very correct in what you say about population I would like to add that b/c of the discovery of oil and the way we use the stuff has everything to do with the population explosion. There are fairs that there maybe a collapse of civlization due to the increase demand and the production not keeping up with demand.
OK so we are after a smoothing off ,of population growth.
I'm getting into a different subject now but bear with me.
Using permaculture principals for city or all varoius size communities would be excellent way with a balanced use of technology to get thru the transition stage of supply and demand of oil. This would reduce a collapse of civilization.
My theory on governing communities and countries, is use the system we have now democratic elections but use a different economic system, one that would stop this filter down system of wealth instead a small percentage having control. I am very reluctant to say communism would be the way to go but something in between. Iwill have to think a little more on that one.

y, but i wouldn't single out oil - energy production which oil is just a part of is probably more accurate classification and looking at it from that perspective, i don't think shortage of oil will cause a collapse of civilization, just a move to other energy sources - most likely more dependance on electric power generated by nuclear and coal stations...and we gotta stop using coal!!

i'm with you regarding use of permaculture - we have to or we will not just destroy civilization but all life :(

as for the social/economic system, i'll have to stick with my response on 'democracy or communism' thread.

I hate this system...idiots vote idiots into power. While I admit the lib governments leadership was in...well lets just say it left much to be desired. Most people just voted for the oposition because they wanted a change. Didn't even consider their ability to lead. Fact is Labor promised interested would rise and they rose twice streight after they were elleted! Cost of living was ment to lower and yet it has risen so high and continues to do so. Aussie culture is surrounded by alcohole...fact is we WILL NOT stop spending on it no matter the price..yet to combat drinking they raise tax on it? YAY LETS CAUSE FAMILIES TO BECOME POORER! And don't even get me started on the prime ministers "GREAT" idea to make buying a house more realistic for first home buyers.

Anyway this is all the point of idiots voting idiots in.

I think one of the main flaws of the system is this. You choose a party to represent you, you have no say in the actual happening of government.

People pick a party for their promises but once they are in power that is it all you have is empty promises that may perhaps get half filled or a plan to fill them will be set in motion that will just be abolished at the next ellection anyway.

Say you pick a party as they say they will fix a highway. (speaking local here) So they fix the highway...did they ever specify which part would be fixed? By the time you raise a stink about it nothing can be done because they've spent the money they budgeted for it and they did deliver did they not?

More moeny into health care? They can simply please the masses by setting a plan to gradually increase the money in health care. They don't have to spend so much on it, getting to spend it else where. And you know what, than plan is going to be gone next government change.

Or lets take war into consideration. You choose a party and they than choose if you go to war or not.

This system lets the masses be won over by marketing and such. They are pleased by the shiny things like "education" "health" and "enviroment". They don't even consider the actually party itself, what their values are, track record and consistancy to deliver. After all while the leader may change the party and what they stabd for rarely does.

Now onto governing bodies in the world. The main ones I'm tlaking about is China/Russia and Japan. Forget war that is last century...these two have the ability to bankrupt the majority of the civilized world. Most of the world owes Japan money. And China distributes the majority of everything.

(I'm completely off topic aren't I? Well I had a great closing that would bring this all together...walked away to feed my baby and forgot it)

Idiots vote for shiny packages, just like the majority of people buy things with boxes that stand out when shoping for food. Perhaps if politics is taught at school? Or at least encouraged in main stream society. Fact is most people hear politics and tune out. When going shopping (i'm sticking with food) you buy foods that go together, we should be voting for a government that will not only improve our community but will get along with the guy next door.

unfortunatly not many people can actually make good food. It takes the ability to either figer it out by taste (trying through the years until a favoured government is founf) or the ability to research the reciepe and think of ways to improve it. (research the parties...their standing and such and know what the party would improve the country)

The only way I can think of improving the system is education unbiasedly. Anything else will frighten and upset the masses. However it is still open to interpetation and that is something that cannot be taught. Our passed experience shape us and I will take things differnetly than you, even when presented with the same facts.

Sorry for the crappy crappy comparisons but I've had very very little sleep...makes sense at the moment though. I seemed to babble a bit sorry.

You are one passionate lady, Mummy 23! And your frustrations with the current system are coming through loud and clear.

Now can we look at it from the perspective of someone who wants to make things better for their community. I would imagine most start off with high ideals. Then they need to get party members to back them as their candidate (some compromising here to get the 'popular' vote); then to please the electorate in your represented area (more compromising to appeal to the masses); then, if you are lucky to be elected to represent, you are powerless to change things on your own so you have to work with like-minded people but again more compromising before you ever get into a real position to influence. By that time, most of your original ideals have been forgotten and you are led by the 'authorities' as to what is possible!

Not sure whether I am making sense or covering old ground but I am desparately trying to understand why politicans lose their ideals on their road to power.