Would hate to live in a world without men. I think you are right on in much of what you say.

It is a shame that men & women have not yet reached equality in our (or any other) society. Ppl need to be seen as human. It is possible to be different and yet equal.

However, before feeling too sad for the state of men, financially the majority of men are still in a better position than women.

There is still a wage gap between the earnings of men and women.
There is an enormous gap in SS and other retirement benefits between men and women.
While men can be nuturers, most do not want the role, because of how they've been raised and how society (that's us) see their role.
Older women are more likely to fall under the poverty level than older men.

This will not change until
1) the current crop of nuturers (parents) raise their children to see that one role is not more important than the other.
2) religions stop teaching that men are more important than women.
3) laws apply equally to both genders
4) society as a whole changes it perception of gender roles, esp. when it comes to finances.

LostLadyLen, with all due respect, i find it unnerving that in a positive post about how to minister to men you have chosen to list a very long list of negatives. There never has been true equality among sexes. There never will be. And, who would decide the definition anyway? It is an impossible quest but now, more than any other point in history, a fairer playing field exists for more people than ever. That is something for civilization to be proud of. If we have an attitude of keeping score, we will always feel short-changed.

Regarding the original topic of ministering to men, I would like to thank you for your empathy, compassion, and concern, Mummy23. There are so many areas in society that men are stereotyped and pigeonholed. We live in a culture that is moving away from traditional paternal dominance to one of maternal dominance. Not being either one, it is no wonder that so many men and women fail in relationships.

Regarding your many faceted approach to assisting boys, men, and the elderly, your ideas are wonderful. It sounds like you will be a sort of CEO of men's programs. That is a great calling. Good luck to you!

faithful...

I am surprised you were unable to see that what I wrote was intended to point out the need for balance, and was in no way intended to set aside the needs of men.

I find it interesting that you choose to see a SHORT list of FACTS as a long list of negatives. For that matter, to even label the facts listed as negative to this post strikes me as a tad self-serving.

Your complaint that our culture is moving away from traditional paternal dominance to one of maternal dominance is inaccurate - the key phrase being maternal dominance. Why can you not see that the proper goal is to move away from either gender dominating?

Although you say "Not being either one", that does not make it so. Our society is still heavily male dominated. Our President-elect is male, the vast majority of Congress ppl are male, ditto the Supreme Court... the list goes on & on - into the private sector.

Yet, you add that it is no wonder that so many fail in relationships because of this shift (as you perceive it). You seem to imply that if our culture remained dominated by men, (instead of in shift mode or maternal mode), relationships would not fail.

You also say "now, more than any other point in history, a fairer playing field exists for more people than ever". That is true. However, the playing field is far from being fair - and it still tilts heavily in favor of the majority of men - so to that comment I can only say "Big Deal" (shrug).

I also find it self-centered of you to say "There are so many areas in society that men are stereotyped and pigeonholed" as if women were not also stereotyped and pigeonholed. Balance! We need balance!! LOL

Rather sounds to me like you want your cake and you want to eat it, too. (No offense.)*

-------------------------------------------------------
* NOTE:

Maybe it's just me... but when someone says "with all due respect", it usually means that the person not only has a lack of respect for the person to whom they are speaking, but their intention is to be insulting. WAIT - it's not just me! ROFLOL

"The Sports Curmudgeon tells me that by listening to politicians he has found out that if you preface remarks by saying 'with all due respect,' then you can insult anyone with impunity."

Sorta like the phrase "No Offence". Gotta love that one, too. The minute someone sez that, you know what is, or was, said is offensive - and the person uttering the words knew it.

Ah, Wot The Heck... I won't take offense to your comments if you don't take offense to mine. N/M I'm gonna choose to not take offense no matter what you choose. Label'n this as an interesting discussion.

I don't think either of us are trying to say that woemn aren't sterotyped. However where I live, and I'm asuming this is the norm, there are lifeline run groups, groups for teen mums, groups for christian mums, groups for girls with eating disorders, study groups for girls, active retirement for ladies......and the list does go on. However there are hardly any groups for men, hardly any help avalible and when it is there its usually in a form of a religion or a free coucling service that while good, is not the best.

The domestic violence place is so adiment that men DO NOT get abused as much as ladies, they therefore don't have to put any effort into getting them to come forward. Fact is we don't know how many men are abused because not all that many of them come forward for help.

I think career wise yes it is heavily dominated by men and yes they generally earn more. However domestically men are being out classes. They are sort of expected to just work and bring home the money, and while doing that they have to also raise the kids at some point. Men that don't help out around the house are viewed negitively. But you know if I worked 10hrs and was very tired and sore from work I would want to just sit down and veg out for a little while too. I would expect that my wife take care of the cooking. Traditionalism has been slammed as being bad because the ladies have so little rights. Which I believe is very very wrong.

Now onto both parents working. If they are working equal the amount of time then yes the man should help, and most young fellas generally will.

So back to topic at hand. Yes ladies get pushed under the carpet more but they have a lot more people trying to get them out. Hardly anyone dedicates their time to fathers. This is a near age and fathers are beng told to be me emotional shouldn't then be wise to have places set up for this purpose?

As for my role in this. I would likely be working the first few years until it is set up and then hand it over to a man. I find a lady running a mens centre a bit odd and as I would be working with only male children I think having is men based it wise. I have 3 children and need to think about making money also. While I would love to stay doing this work, it just doesn't pay enough for someone with three kids and dreams of putting deposits down on all their first houses.

LostLadyLen, rather than discuss our disagreements point by point that are really side issues from the topic, let me just say that it is a pleasure to discuss these things with you even though we disagree on many issues.

Mummy, good luck with your ideas. I'm sure many boys, teens, and men will really benefit from your establishment of a boys/men's center. Who knows, maybe you will even find a way to franchise them across the country in the fashion of the Boys Club or Boy Scouts.

LostLadyLen, i find you making Faithfull777's post and opinions a joke (in my opinion) in its own way rather disrespectful.

That being said. i am compelty thrilled Mummy, with what you are doing. I think the domination of domestic duties is changing greatly. I read an article the other, day that some men are actually staying home with their children whiel the wife goes out and bring home the bread, so to speak. That being siad i think the worlds, shitft and change with gender identity women independence is changing greatly. The world and society is changing, its a simple fact.

Woman are in the work force, doing Trades, and being independent, becoming CEO's. But men are as well Pigeonhold and discimanted against. such as the following saying:

"Big boys dont cry." men are always told that big boys dont cry, which is utter, poop. Because men as well as woman feel feelings, have the right to feel feelings and always will have the right to those feelings.

Woman are often pittied in courts, and are often pittied in domsestic disputes. I remember one day hearing of a man, that was raped, as a child, but he didnt call it rape it was "molestiation," but honestly if it were a woman, people would jump on the damn situation with the word, "Rape," written all over their lips.

Society will never be perfect, and i will never expect it to become perfect. But mummy, a perosn who can make the difference and want to make the change, and try to move human rights forward, and is at least going to try, deserves a good pat on the back because, everyone deserves to feel free, and kind and great. and i support you all the way.

good going girl.


Morose-Mary

MM
I fail to see how my comments to faithful's could be seen as a joke. The topic is too serious for that. My only "humor" was meant as a way to gently point out that his statement "with all due respect", was easily recognizable as a put down - a put down that was uncalled for and that I wasn't willing to gloss over. However, not knowing whether he intended it to be a putdown, I chose to use humor to point out that the use of that phrase can be misconstrued. Other than that, I was completely serious.

Faithful... Perfectly happy to agree to disagree. Although I don't believe we are in total disagreement - it is more a matter of degree.

Mummy, Again, I agree with much of what you say. Although, from what I have actually seen, and read... Prehaps the young men are helping more. However, it certainly seems that among woman who work, they still carry the brunt of the housework, child care, planning extended family get togethers, etc.

Again I raise my voice for the sake of balance. For example: Both genders have been raised with behavioral expectations that are unreasonable. For example: Teaching boys not to cry and telling woman they "can have it all" which translates into being expected to do it all.

Oh, and yes... there are those ppl (of both genders) who manipulate others and the system. Behavior that causes trouble for those who are honest and truthful.

I agree that there are many issues dealing with providing care for males that need to be addressed, without placing either gender on a pedestal of need.

Clarify'n:

When I speak of balance, what I really have in mind is keeping the Pendulum of Change from going too far one way or the other.

For too many years, the balance of power rested in the hands of men. Women were not only unable to own property, they were considered to be property. There was a time, before Child Labor Laws, when children, including very young children, were forced to work under difficult and/or dangerous conditions, for little pay.

There was a time when a man kept the children if the marriage failed.
Specific to child custody, the Pendulum swung too far the other way, knocking men down, leaving them with few, if any, rights as to how their children were raised, while being expected to shoulder the entire financial burden of providing for their children. Frequently, they were not even allowed to see their children. This has changed to some degree insofar as it is now illegal to deny a father visitation rights unless the Court denies the father his rights.

While much has changed, the Pendulum is still swinging too far - first one way, then another.

By applying a hefty dose of emotionalism, it is too easy to send the Pendulum too far, even if the change was started from a rational point in order to correct a flaw in the legal system dealing with the our rights.

what a wonderful debate this has turned into!

Don't ya just love a good debate? I really have nothing new to say on this subject. However I have had a lot of my male friends emotionally and verbally abused by their partners, while only two have been physical

I think it takes more than simply thinking about issues to change anything. To help anyone in domestic violence you first have to understand how it works, it is the same for helping children ect. Domestic violence works in a cycle and once in this cycle it is very hard to break it. The abusers are often sent to anger managment groups but domestic violence has nothing to do with anger management.

So anyway once I have finished my working with children course I think I am going to do one on domestic violence then go to uni to do my english/teaching degree. I also have to get my blue card soon.

On a side note I am writing my thoughts down on subjects that I am interested in or I look into when i come across them in my studies, I should likely put them on here.

That it has!!! Like a good subject that stretches one's mind. Can't argue with your point that it takes more than simply thinking about issues to bring about change.

IMHO or maybe IMnotsoHO??? - The only way to truly break the cycle (and this may be impossible) is to prevent children from witnessing abuse, and/or being abused, while at the same time raising them in an atmosphere of love and trust.

Sharing this, although I would imagine that many, if not all, are familiar with this "poem".

How a Child Learns
http://www.maran-ata.net/minihearts/learns.htm

The sad fact is that many ppl are incapable of acknowledging the rights of others, let alone be able to teach this to the children.

I don't know that anything can be done on a large scale about this issue (Physical & Emotional Abuse of Others) - but it is worth trying to bring about change. At least success can be achieved when helping individuals.

lots to be said on this topic but i'm tired as hell so few quick points for now;

- (depressing) i think both men and women are are overly stereotyped and instead of getting better, it is actually getting a lot worse. this stereotyping used to be mainly due to cultural/traditional values, we managed to make a lot of progress on that but then capitalism took over the task by cashing up on each sex's biological vulnerabilities - its quiet scary if you pay attention to it how much advertising has sexual overtones and prays upon the 'competition for mates' instinct (one of the strongest animal level instincts) to sell products! it is also disheartening that after many people fighting for decades to ensure equal worth for women, the same media and general social pressures have ended up reducing that worth and compensating for that by reducing the worth of males as well! these days all that seems to be important is how you look and how popular/famous you are (and this can only be achieved by buying more products...lol) - for both men and women :/

- starting a support organization for men? i'd rather see ALL support organizations to be blind to gender but in the absence of that, probably a good idea.

- leaving it to a men after getting it started because men are more comfortable with men? not sure, i personally am equally comfortable with both, just depends on if they're a compassionate person or not - if they're helping because they can feel my pain, don't really care which set of reproductive organs they have. if they're helping to feel good about themselves then again i'll be equally aversive.