What a lively topic. As a minister, this can be one of the toughest to address. In seminary, the term used to describe this phenomenon is "theodicy." Picture a triangle sitting on it's base. Label the points: Bottom left - God is all powerful (omnipotent), Bottom right - God is love, top/peak - Bad things happen. As long as the triangle is equilateral and it is sitting in this fashion, our faith is unshakable. However, let something bad happen and the triangle inverts, sitting on the point of "bad things happen." What you have now is a balancing act between the God is powerful and God is love. If bad things happen, then one or the other of the other two cannot be true for the very reasons that albi states. I wish I had the magic answer to this, but I don't, and neither does any other person who was trained in seminary or not. It is something that each person has to reconcile for themselves and work out through their own personal relationship with God. That is not something that I am going to address here.

Instead, I want to lay out a gentle reminder that there are powerful forces at play that are NOT God. Whether you just want to group them into the catch-all term "evil," or characterize them as as "fallen angels or demons," or as that single evil one - the ultimate fallen angel known as Lucifer or Satan, it is real and it exists. It constantly works contrary to the will of God, and all of humanity is constantly seeking to overcome it. This is the force that constantly tips the balance of that inverted theodicy triangle, causing us to eventually choose which side the triangle will eventually fall. It can eventually and ultimately define our relationship with God and our interactions with God going forward.

Albi, I know and understand your frustration and anger with a God who has seemingly let you down, let you suffer and seemed to turn his back on you. I believe with every part of my being that God weeps for you and what has happened to you, like any loving parent would who sees his child suffer. I also believe with every part of my being that God has frustrated the evil forces by being there with you through it all, even when you couldn't feel his presence or understand the reasons for any or all of it. The answers you to your questions and dilemmas may not be known to you in this lifetime, but you have the rest of your life to work with God to try to make some sense of it all. Whether that is to use your experience to help others, to warn others, to advocate for simmilar victims or to simply heal yourself doesn't matter as much as you acknowledging the power of God. That you can't seem to find it in your heart to feel or acknowledge the love of God, well God knows and understands that, and weeps for you as well.

There is no magic pill or answer to healing from our suffering. Acknowledging the power of God and praying to that power for healing can absolutely do no harm. It can even open our hearts and minds to accept that there might be something greater for us in this lifetime or in the next..

For all of you who are struggling with this "inverted triangle," I pray, "Most powerful and Holy God. We accept your power but often in the midst of our suffering have trouble knowing and understanding where your love fits into this equation. Open the hearts of each and every person who struggles daily with this situation that they might see your great and glorious works, either within themselves or in the lives of others. Protect us all from those forces of evil that would have us deny you and your love for us, as we all WANT to believe that it is so, we just too often get caught up in the various traumas that are brought on by the evil Satan causes in this world. Continue to love us as your children, and may each of us one day be able to proclaim our knowledge and faith in your love. This I ask in the name of our Blessed Savior, Amen."

Amen to your Prayer RevPatty.

I just wanted to share a few things about what we talked about at Church this weekend, that goes along with this...We were talking about "The Church of Oprah versus The Question of Truth."

Now, it was focused on her webcasts she has with Eckhart Tolle, author of a 'A New Earth.' Versus The Word of God...and which is the Truth.

These are some of the Scriptures that were used.

Our Pastor spoke of gnosticism which is like a form of thought emphasizing secret knowledge..."a group of ancient heresies, stressing escape from this world through the acquisition of esoteric knowledge." (Dictionary.com)

And this Tolle book is a form of Gnosticism. He does consider himself a Spiritual Leader, and many have found 'spiritual awakenings' from his book...but he also includes many viewpoints of Religious Figures, like Buddha, Jesus...but he dethrones Jesus, by NOT putting Him First. And, he seems to focus on 'Ego.'

So, our Pastor explained that:
Jesus + something else (Buddha, other enlightening figures, false prophets)= Not True, Not Jesus wholly.

But, Jesus + 0 = Truth, Jesus Wholly

* God is NOT a 'feeling', He is a Belief, NOT a thought.

1 John 4:1 (NIV)

Test the Spirits
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Colossians 2:1-10 (NIV)

I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.


1 Corinthians 1:18 (NIV)

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

*****************************************************************

Then, THE BEST PART was he recited this Poem by the late Pastor S.R. Lockridge..it was the most AWESOME POEM EVER!

I have found it on YouTube set to video...and I Hope you ALL will watch it. I am going to post 2 links...One is a link that has the words with it, b/c the WORDS are AMAZING! Watch it first.

Then, if you want, you can watch the 2nd link, it has no words, but the poem is recited in the background, and the video is pretty awesome too.

This is a **MUST WATCH!**

That's My King- with words, awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upGCMl_b0n4

That's My King - no words, awesome video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFkrEjQPuRo

I hope you are as moved by the poem and videos as I was!

TLCDaisy... how do you know that God is there for us all. The bible tells us so isn't enough for me. Life experience and trauma has told me different. I want to believe in HIs goodness, I really do. I just don't feel as if I can trust Him. I hear scripture and I think .. hypocrite. "The little children will enter the kingdom..." well then if He loves them so much why doesn't he protect them?

RevPatty...How do I believe that He "weeps for me" when He did nothing to help me. The whole idea behind "footprints" is just not enough. What good is it to carry me after the abuse? You better freaking carry me! How dare you stand by and watch it happen and do nothing! What kind of loving father sits by and watches such horrendous things?

There was a time in my life where I was a lead retreat master, Youth Minister, Religious Education teacher, and part of a traveling retreat program. There was a time when I was able to put it all behind me and simply not question. I just tried to focus ahead and pretend the past never happened. Then, just when I was in the midst of offering my life to God and His glory - I was raped by a cousin. I was 21! It wasn't supposed to happen when I was old enough to take care of myself. It was supposed to be over and behind me. I was supposed to grow from all the horrible things that happened to me... share it with others and talk about how my faith pulled me through it all. I lost total faith in God! I did nothing to warrant such an attack. I was trying to love and serve Him with all of my being. And then I am attacked?? How does that happen as an adult? How could it? How can God look at Himself knowing he did nothing to stop this horrible attack on His so... called daughter? How could he? How could I ever believe in Him or His goodness ever again?

These are important questions albi. Job asked them. Holocaust survivors ask them. I have asked them too and I have been abused all my life (but not all of my life, thank God).

In the end I think we are making a big assumption and error if we blame God for our suffering. Why SHOULD God make life pain (sometimes dreadful pain and misery) free?

Hi albi,

I can't say that I understand where you are coming from because I have never suffered such abuse and I am so sorry for your suffering. It doesn't make sense does it for a child to go through so much pain.

Are you seeing a good counselor for this? Prayers help, but a first rate therapist can also help you.

Tea

I think belief in God is a spiritual matter, not a mental health one.

Albi, there is nothing I can say or do that will convince you. I know in my heart and with all my being that God weeps for you and anyone else who has suffered as you do. God himself suffered the scourge of the cross, so God DOES know what suffering is about. The answers are not for me or anyone else to give you, but for you to work out with God. Plenty of scriptures talk of how God weeps for us, as well as how God delights in what we do when we do the things God would have us do.

God is also ok with us questioning motives in a search for understanding. If you are ever able to reconcile those issues with God, it will make your relationship stronger and more personal. I have thrown temper tantrums because of what has happened to me, and have been spiteful when I realized that my daughter was sexually assaulted by her own father. In the end, I have to say that some of these things I don't completely understand today and may never understand in this lifetime or the next. Even my daughter's faith was not shaken by this unspeakable act (although for the life of me I can't understand why) so faith that transcends understanding does and can exist.

Even scripture has acts of vengeance and discipline by God. God sent the chosen people into exile in Egypt, and then sent Moses to rescue them, only to have them wander for 40 years in the wilderness in search of the promised land. God and Satan played a game at Job's expense. So yes, bad things have happened to people at the hand of God, but ultimately good came from it. The people who returned to Israel were ready to proclaim the one and only God. Job has been both Judaism and Christianity's model of faith and steadfastness. Moses, as righteous as he was, was never allowed to enter Egypt after leading his people all those years, but Moses had a love for God that never wavered.

I sense that you are searching for that real definitition of who God really is. You are searching for it in a manner that makes sense in your experience. The sad truth is that your reality is so different from anyone eles's that you cannot overlay our experience or knowledge of who God is and have it make sense. That I know that God weeps for you is part of my reality and part of my personal relationship with God. I could tell you things based on human to human experience that you cannot understand or grasp because in your reality, your relationship with that person is totally different.

John Wesley, who was the founder of modern methodism, talks aabout working out our own salvation. In his sermon/essay, he talks about this very thing, that our relationship with God, hense our understanding of salvation, is as personal as any other relationship that we might have. Wesley, by the way, struggled with the notion of holiness and salvation, including his own, his entire life, and he is regarded today as one of the major figures in modern religion. How you work that out with God is between you and God. All I can do (and it is a BIG thing) is pray for you and hope that God will open your heart to the point that you can eventually make sense of it all.

One of my recent journal entries talks about the theory of relativity - and the law of physics that states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you think about that, think about how daunting God's task is in answering everybody's proayers. For every success/winner, there are countless losers. Everything good that happens to us means that there are others who are left out. When we get the job, others go unemployed. When we win the scholarship, others are denied an education. When the farmer prays for rain and the baseball coach prays for good and sunny weather, whose prayer gets answered? None of these examples explain the trauma that you faced, but I think by looking at them you can understand at least a little bit about how daunting God's task is.

Vengeance and justice can be healing. Vengance should be at the hands of the proper authorities according to the laws of the land, and justice gives us some peace that evil is punished, but neither takes away the trauma that we face. I understand that. But justice can allow us to heal from that trauma and find a place where we can start to feel the love of God once again.

I am sorry that I don't have the answers for you. What I know in my heart of hearts doesn't mesh with your experience, and I know that God did not give me or any other human for that matter an understanding complete enough to be able to explain it to your satisfaction. I hope and pray in my heart of hearts that you can find it within yourself to renew your relationship with God to a point where that triangle rights itself once again.

God's grace and peace,
Patty

Wow! Thank you so much for your comments, support, prayers and encouragement offered to me. I don't mean to be argumentative in any way. I hope you all understand that. I want to believe as I once did. I want to trust and be enlightened and enriched by faith as many of you all mention.

Rosem1111â??Thank you for your comments. I think I blindly followed God and what I perceived to be his will the very best I could. I had utter faith that he would protect me and keep me from harm. I lost that along the way as the way went up stronger and higher.

Teadrinker- Yes, I am working with a therapist and she is AMAZING. I am very thankful for her! She does EMDR with me and it was horrendous in the beginning, but is now becoming a little more manageable. I'm hoping that it stays this way.

RevPattyâ??I see your point about not being able to explain it to me in a way that satisfies me. I guess day-by-day as the horrors locked in my heart are dealt with I am hoping that my faith can be restored and my heart softened. The wall of anger/pain and distrust is so stong and high that I donâ??t know that anything could break through it at this point. I also am not at all patient. I want it all fixed yesterday. I want to be free and healthy immediately. I want to have a life worth believing in, worth living. What exactly that means or what it looks like I have no clue.

I just want to live a normal average life and do normal average things. Why is that so hard? And I read Job. That poor man I felt so bad for him the entire time. He needed some real LOVE from Godâ??instead God toys with him??? Again, I have no clue, but I wish I did â?? does that count?

Dear albi, I feel for you. I struggled for a long time, in between my early blind belief and trust and coming to know for sure that God exists. I suffered a lot and the pain was horrendous. I think the worst pain was feeling that God was hiding from me, wilfully and I was angry with "Knock and the door will be opened". I was very angry about that because really I tried and tried, knocking as if forever. I felt lied to.

I can't claim to have a convincing argument because none convinced me. In fact I think I went wrong in looking for proof, ie, arguments that convinced me. I had many discussions with sincere and decent friends and still I couldn't believe though I wanted to and sure was "knocking".

In the end I just followed the religious yearnings of my heart and went where religion was, in many ways. And I read a lot. What helped me most in my reading, apart from Scripture, was reading true life stories of faith and conversion ("born again" stuff, I mean, return). A big turning point for me was when I found, second hand, an old record of chanted psalms in which I coul hear every word - and those words really touched and healed me; they were as if my words. I had always found the psalms to be special and those words, expressed in the mode they were, really got through to me and started a process happening. There were other further religious growth points too, quite a number connected with singing or chanting. I have always been very responsive to the right music and sounds.

But it's a long story. Basically I just wanted to touch on it a little. Maybe I'm partly saying that it has seemed to me that growth comes if we start taking little steps towards what is drawing us, even if we aren't sure where it will lead us.

Rosem... it's so ironic that you would write me this about following what your heart desires. There was a retreat program that I used to be an integral part of running in July of this year. A friend, who was also involved in the program, asked if I planned to be involved this summer. I told him that was a nice idea, but I did not have enough faith for myself much less to share with others. I am certainly no model of faith or devotion. He told me "good, you make an excellent example... share your thoughts with them." He told me to go and take a service role rather than a ministry role, and that I might really need to be there myself. He encouraged me to send in my application to work and see if I was discerned to be a part of the team. If I was not then - "no worries." If I was then I would know that I was meant to be there and that I should go and be open to what God has to share with me. Well.... after much reservation I decided to send in the application. Discernment was Tuesday and then they send out letters. I really have zero desire to do it, and that's what worries me. You know I'm going to be discerned! I'm going to try to be open to whatever it is I'm supposed to get out of this experience. Maybe I'll go and have it out with Jesus!

Yes. You know, because of my journey, I don't believe anything happens by chance.

That aside, I think you should listen to your "insides". How do you feel? I mean that in a deep way. It can help to ask how you feel about doing it and how you feel about NOT doing it. This is to get at where YOU are at. Otherwise you are giving in to pressure.

But probably that person meant well. But I think we should always leave the other person free to choose. Maybe your friend was not so much pressuring though, more sharing his ideas? But he wasn't helping you say what you wanted. Sounded like pressure to me, right or wrong. Anyway, I think the main thing is to "listen" to our small,still voice inside.

I'm a big believer in talking to God. I even talked to God when I wasn't sure in my head that God existed. I'd say "If you really exist, show me yourself !!!" Trouble was I think I was looking for the signs in the wrong place. I had to myself ready first

All the best with this.