my husband had a spinal fusion for L3-L5 for herniated bulging discs. He has 2 meshes in place for the discs, 2 rods to hold the spine aligned and screws. That was October 31st 2011.....and now he is in severe pain-neuro that is from his back to his pinky toes....with horrid electrocuting type spasms. He is on muscle relaxer, 100mcg duragesic patch every 2 days, 20mg oxymorphone er every 12 hours and 15 mg oxycodone every 6 hours. If we had to do it again...HELL NO!!! He will be on Medicare April 1st and I will be taking him to a neurosurgeon up north to hopefully help him lessen his pain..he has no quality of life...he was a maintenance worker and redid our whole house. Now he just moves from recliner to couch to bed....it breaks my heart to see what he has lost. Get 3 and 4 opinions before you decide if you will go for the surgery...I don't know how limited you are right now but make sure you are aware it can come out worst than when you went in. God luck.

Diane

What Dianne7460 said happened to her husband is exactly why the excellent ortho/spine surgeon I'd seen several years ago advised me
to never have done. He was known all over the country for his expertise but, he also said, only about 1/3 of his patients had any benefit from the surgery and that didn't always last long.
My spine wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is now, but coming from an expert like himself and seeing here and elsewhere the problems
so many have had post spinal surgery (all different kinds) I'm ever
so glad he gave me the advice he did and that stubborn me actually listened to him.,

Please do a LOT of investigation and talk to others that have had this before committing to it. Once done, it can't be undone:(:(
Don't mean to scare you, I just want you to proceed with
caution.

Yes, I'm in chronic pain, have to rely on opiates a LOT but, I still do
have some quality of life.

Peace and the hope you get the answers you need to make the decision that will be best for you in the long run....

Hi Dava.

I know this isn't an answer to your question since I believe you are asking about NON INVASIVE back surgery. What kind exactly ? I don't know of all of the non invasive types. I did know about Diane's husband when I posted back in August or September that I had made the decision to have spinal fusion surgery on my L-5, S-1. I didn't have a herniated disc. I had NO DISC at all between those two vertebrae. I am 54 years old and was diagnosed with arthritis and degeneratvie disc disease when I was 44. I have a pretty high threshold for pain so I handled it for 10 years.. had physical therapy more times than I can count. Over the last two years it was getting progressively worse though and I was in constant pain and it was affecting my quality of life to be sure. I saw on ortho surgeon about 7 years ago and he suggested s disc replacement. I didn't want to have surgery so I did more physical therapy and just lived with the pain. ( I rarely was prescribed any pain meds. I just took ibuprofen which did pretty much nothing and suffered ). This past August I saw another ortho surgeon ( my third surgeon in 10 years), who did spinal fusion on my father's back 8 years ago and my dad had excellent results. My dad was 71 at the time of his surgery. My surgeon is very highly respected and I personally know 3 others who have had back surgery done by him. He told me that there were no other options for me but spinal fusion. I thought long and hard.. I did .. and I chose to have the surgery . I had the surgery on Oct. 1, 2013 ( right at 4 months ago). the doc took bone from my right hip and used cadavar bone to open up the space between the vertabrae. He also used 4 screws to set the fusion. He also removed severe arthritis bone spurs ( which were giving me femoral leg nerve pain ).

I can tell you and anyone who reads this it was the most painful thing I have ever been through and I am not sure if someone had not REALLY REALLY told me how hard it was going to be I wouldn't have chickened out. I have neve known that kind of pain before and it was a good six weeks until I really got any relief and that was with me taking up to 90 mg. of oxycodone every 24 hours. He warned me the hip pain would be worse than the back pain and he wasn't kidding! Thankfully, I don't work outside of my home and my husband is self employed and is home alot .. because he was my nurse and did everything.. not only helping me physically but everything around the house. Now, 4 months later , I am recovering well . I had a pretty bad set back on Christmas Eve when I slipped and busted my a$$ on my hardwood kitchen floor. Needless to say, he wasn't happy about that. He told me that it will be a good 6 months or probably longer since my fall until the fusion is healed completely. I know it could take up to a year.

Now I am sure you would think I regret having the surgery, but I don't. I am still on pain meds, but down to anywhere from 15 mg. - 25 mg. of oxycodone a day. I think I would be on less if I didn't have the fall and jarred everything up. I know the pain I do have is HEALING PAIN.. I know I still have a ways to go.. and I am so sorry that Diane's husband is suffering so much after his surgery . I know that I may end up having to have surgery again down the road. the doc told me there is a 4% chance each year that you might.. so in 10 years there is statistically I guess, a 40% chance I would have to have surgery again. I just felt like at 54 , I wanted to get this surgery done instead of waiting when I knew I was going to continue to get worse. Even though the recovery has been very very hard, each day is getting a little easier and I don't regret it. I know you are talking about much less invasive surgery so if you do decide to do it I wish you the very very best. I know that Noodle made the best decision for her, based on what her surgeon said and her personal choice, and that is what we all need to do. Get all the information you can. Know all of the risks. The pros and cons.

I know I just wrote a novel and I apologize.. I ramble!!

I just wanted you to know that for me, so far atleast , I feel like my surgery was a success. Y'all keep your fingers crossed for me that it stays that way! Good luck to you .. keep us posted.

and to anyone else who may take the time to read my 5,000 word reply , I wish you the best in your healing and I'm sorry for all of us who have to suffer with chronic back pain.

Hugs.
LMT

oh my gosh... I didn't know I wrote that much until after I hit send reply!

Sorry y'all! I wont' blame anyone who doesn't read all of that.. yikes!

LMT & Dava...

I wasn't trying to say "don't do it", I suggested that Dava do a lot
of research and talking to others, before making the decision.

Yes, mine was what was best for me, just at it was for you, LMT...

I sincerely apologize if I came across in the wrong way, I'd never
tell anyone what they should/should not do in terms of any medical
procedure.

I only meant anyone should research things before making the
final decision.

Again, I am sorry....

noodles

Dava, you specifically mentioned "THE NON INVASIVE TYPE OF SURGERY". Is laser surgery the type of treatment you are asking about? The posts so far have been about the more conventional type of open back surgeries, so I want to make sure I understand your question before commenting.

I am not sure if this board is capable of what I am about to suggest, but if you are interested in laser surgery do a search on my user ID to find a couple long posts that I wrote about my experiences with this. Please let me know.......

I had the regular surgery for a huge herniated disc L5-S1...laminectory and diskectomy. I was in severe pain and could not sit down at all before the surgery. I was significantly better the very next day and totally pain free within 2 weeks. Complete success

again, I apologize for the novel I wrote when Dava was asking about non invase surgery.

Noodle, gosh, I apologize if I sounded like I thought you were telling Dave not to do anything. I agree totally with what you said, so I sincerely apologize if I made you feel bad in any way.

Pugmom.. that is great news that your surgery was a success and that you had such relief almost immediately! My dad had the same surgery you did last June and had the same success. Good news!

Hello, everyone. This my very first time to post in this group.
I had a slipped vertebrae at L5-S1. Also a congenital defect im my pars something or other. After all this time I forget. DO NOT LET THIS SCARE YOU OR NEGATIVELY IMPACT YOUR DECISION. I just wanted to share my experience. I was fairly bad but I had a new job and I was trying to wait on my insurance (I know, that probably was naughty but I needed the insurance and for it to not be pre-existing)
Any way I waited so long that I was in severe pain, on oxycodone 4x day and any time I made a change of position from sitting to standing i was in +10 pain and it was taking longer and longer for

...the pain to subside.
(How do yall get to write such long replies?)
I cried every morning when I got up, in the shower, getting into the car, 1 hou ride to work, cried when I could finally get out of the car etc.ot and had
I was an LPN working a 7pm - 7am shift in a nursing home.
When I had the surgery, they said it took 1 1/2 hours longer to do the surgery than it was supposed to. Buy that was mainly because my bones were so hard they were having trouble getting the screws in. I have nerve damage in my left foot as a result.

Dr said they had to manipulate the nerves quite a bit to get things dome. That made things pretty interesting for a bit.
Any way, after surg, I thought I was dying the pain was so bad. I think it was mostly cause I waited to long.
I have since had a laminectomy which did wonderfully. I cooked supper my second day home.
My 3rd was another slipped vertebrae at a diferent leve. It was much better than the 1st but the pain didn't get better and now is getting worse. The neurologist diagnosed me a having failed back syndrome and did not recommend further sugery. I don't know where to go from her. Pain getting worse again. Well that needs to be all for now. Hurting bad. gotta get up. Thanks for listening. Good luck to all of you who have decisions to make and who are in such pain.
I hope this rambling has not been a problrm

Dava .. I had exactly what you asked ... an L4/L5/S1 non-invasive Band Aid procedure (the other name for the non-invasive surgery) for herniated discs in March 2011. Every problem I had, was over in one hour flat! I had the six best days of my life .. and then woke up on the 7th day with the sciatica from Hell. I had never had sciatica before. My life since March 8, 2011 .. has been a disaster. I cannot even tell you all of everything I have done or tried since then. It would be a book and all I get is worse, worse, worse.

When you ask .. is it worth it? .. please keep in mind, that if you ask 100 different people, about 70 will tell you NO and 30 will tell you YES. You have to remember, EVERYBODY is sooooo different, there is no way of knowing if our stories are worth telling you.

You have to do your own questioning and research and come to your own conclusions. I know that sounds sad but that is the reality. Nobody knows your back better than you do, not even the X amount of surgeons you go see. Even they are all different.

It's a terrible place to be in.

I have about 5 friends that did what I did, and got total relief. And me? The exception. I just found out one of the five had a procedure again last year so she only got 3 years on her first. But still, she is doing well enough to function.

I also have a few friends that did fusions. A couple of them are ecstatic with their results. A couple other have had their back destroyed and you know what, their lives are kinda destroyed too.

Mine is also destroyed. I am far worse off than before. But what can I say. Everyone else I know that did exactly what I did, has a life back.

So .. it really is a crap shoot. Most surgeons you interview will probably encourage you to do it. Some will tell you to avoid a back surgery at just about any cost.

One thing I do want to say .. when it comes to L4/L5/S1 .. that is the bottom of the spine. Weight and tension move down the spine. That means, the lower your back bears your body mass and weight, the more opportunity you have to have problems. And another thing .. you should make sure your physician of choice runs a bone density test on each of your vertebrae. I am totally not joking. While osteoporsis (bone mass loss) is far more common in women, it is common in men. If you see that the bones of your lower back are losing bone mass due to aging .. never consider a fusion and think hard about ANY procedure you decide on. As you age, your lower back can only support so much of your body mass and even a successful surgery at whatever age you are now .. might end up causing problems down the road, 10, 15 or so years as your spine compresses with age.

I do wish you all the best. It really is a crapshoot decison and today, the Band Aid surgeons (the non invasive surgeons) are pushing these 'easy' procedures every where you turn. Of course they are much easier than open incision but don't be fooled. The opportunities for unknown complications can be endless. Once you 'stabilize' that area of your back, every other tissue and bone around it will adjust to that new stabilization and things can, and do, 'shift.

All the best. Making the decison is not easy.

Also forgot to mention, but even if they clean up and seal the herniation .. there is nothing to stop a new one occurring. If your lower back is pressured enough that it caused the problem in the first place .. it can easily happen again. I had 4 leaks sealed -- 8 mm, 5 mm, and two 4 mm. On top of the sciatica from hell, I also have 4 more leaks that need to be sealed .. in almost the same places, right next to the ones that were fixed.

Go figure.

I wish you the best as you wrestle with this.

Sincerely, Cindy
(Need New Shoes is from another group I belong to and trust me, I can afford them. Name was for something else.)

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR HONEST RESPONSES. THE MINIMALLY INVASIVE SURGERY IS ABOUT A 1 INCH INCISION.
NOT THE LASER SURGERY. HOW IS THE LASER SURGERY IF ANYONE HAD IT DONE !

Following is a long post I wrote last October about my experience with North American Spine (NAS), which does do laser spine surgery at several locations around the country.

10/20/13 4:20pm
" Since I have had multiple procedures by a doctor who is affiliated with NAS, I thought I should comment since I would bet that are not many of us on DS. I am going to hit you with a lot of random information and thoughts so please hang with me.

1. The company: They are, IMO, a marketing company in that (as stated in Section #2 of their "User Agreement") they do NOT employ any doctors or own any medical facilities (hospitals). Although all contact with NAS doctors is only allowed to go through NAS, the doctors are not employees. I highly recommend that you closely read their User Agreement at http://northamericanspine.com/user-...

2. Costs: They do NOT accept Medicare or any Mediacare related insurance. They do not have contracts with any non-Medicare insurance companies (like a PPO) and will only act as an "Out of Network" provider (assuming your insurance will even accept them since many of their procedures are considered experimental). If you have BCBS, forget it, they learned from me.

3. Carefully read Section 5 of the User Agreement that covers their liability.

4. The "AccuraScope" is something only they can do since it was invented by their owner (I assume that he still is the owner) when he was (still is?) a doctor in Ohio. Note that the AccuraScope method can only be used in part of the lower lumbar region and is not used for any other part of the back. The AccuraScope is about the size of a brick and has two small tubes that are inserted into a small incision (~3mm) near the tailbone. One tube has a laser, and the second has as HD camera. The laser is used to treat bulging disc(s), scar tissue, and inflammation. IMO, if you can get past the money issues this procedure may be a good option for someone who only has a lower lumbar problem. The only post-op indication that you had this procedure will be a small bandage/tape near your tailbone. As I recall, there was little to no post-op pain, but there was some minor bleeding in the first few hours after the procedure (we had to change the bandage). Since there is so little post-op pain, and recovery is measured in a few days, not months like more conventional back surgery is why I say it may be a good first choice for some.

5. My personal experience: I had four separate visits to the hospital with NAS. I say "visits" vs some other word because I had multiple procedures during some of the visits. My main problem was with a bludge on T7/8 that was (is) causing problems and no conventional surgeon would even consider touching me (with good reasons). In addition to this disc problem, multiple MRIs showed disc issues throughout my back; top to bottom. Even though the AccuraScope method does not would in the thoracic region of the back, at least the NAS doctor did offer some hope that the bulge could be reduced with laser treatment (most, if not all laser treatment centers will not touch the thoracic area).

During my first hospital out-patient visit the doctor performed the AccuraScope procedure and reported that he had found several problems that did not show up on any of the MRIs (a common problem as I was to find out) and that he was able to fix them with the laser. I was sent home after about 4 hours in the hospital. I returned the next morning to have T7/8 laser reduced. That procedure did not go as well because the doctor said that the bludge was much larger than what was shown on the MRI, so big that he was not allowed by his safety standards to reduce it enough. Therefore, he recommended that I come back in six weeks (for what would be the third time/visit) to laser reduce T7/8 again.

After the second reduction of T7/8 the doctor told me to give it 6 months to see if anything improved (swelling go down etc.), but he still said that he could not reduce the buldge enough, but he had hope.....

After six months, it was obvious that nothing had changed from my standpoint (same pain, same place; in front BTW not in my back). Therefore, he recommended a third laser reduction of T7/8 and that at the same time he would look at T8/9 & T9/10, which according to the multiple MRIs, were fine.

This time the doctor laser reduced all three T-discs and he reported that all were "severely degenerated and bulged." Since I had had 4-thoracic MRIs and none of them showed these issues or for that matter even matched each other, that it became obvious to me that MRIs are way, way oversold as a diagnostic tool for back problems. In truth, they are nearly worthless. After this third attempt and with my insurance refusing to pay for anything, and (IMO) NAS trying to shake down the insurance company, that I finally gave-up on NAS about 18 months ago.

As of this writing, I still cannot say for sure if any of the procedures helped or not. At the worst point in my back problem (almost 3 years ago) I spent all day lying down since being flat was my only relief. Today, I no longer have to spend the day lying flat, and can lead a somewhat normal life with pain MEDs, I have no way of knowing why I have had some improvement. The procedures may have helped, but it is not possible for me to say for sure what helped.

BYW - - I mentioned that I thought that NAS was shaking down the insurance company (BCBS). NAS was "out-of-network" as mentioned. The first procedure they did provide some help, but six weeks after the second procedure (the day after the first as noted) they decided to decline coverage (for the first procedure and all future) because they said that the procedures were experimental. To NAS, and more importantly the hospital and doctor, credit they accepted the fact that they got hosed by BCBS and did not come back to me for the balance (according to their very poorly worded contract they could have).

So, by the time the fourth visit came around, they all knew that BCBS was not going to pay so they made me pay about $5,000 upfront, with the potential for far greater costs (again very poorly written contract) later. Now here is the odd part. I when in the hospital four times and each time I was there less than four hours. The hospital charges (to the insurance company) for the first three visits were each about $15-$16,000. The charge (to BCBS who had already said "no") for the fourth visit was over $250,000. Again, even though there is this huge bill hanging out there, NAS never came back to me for more money. So, I can say that NAS will stand by what they say the total costs to you will be, but be prepared for a very poor contract with a wide-open door.

That's my story and experience. Can I recommend NAS? Maybe. At least they tried, where all others said to go jump into the lake. Even as recent as two weeks ago, I went to a doctor at one of the famed Houston Medical Centers and his only comment was "so what do you want from me?" What an answer to someone that is in constant pain with all kinds of documentation to back up my issues including four post-op reports. We just walked out.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope you could find some help buried in my story and experiences. Good luck if you decided to call NAS. "

thank you sptrout for your informative response . Its scarry right now !
Now not sure if I want to do the surgery ! Maybe will do the epidural injection ! Not in a rush to do the surgery !