Atheist Safehouse Community Group
This group is for anyone who would like to have a free exchange of ideas and debate. It is designed primarily as a site for atheists, however people of any level of society are welcome.
Actually I came here following Member Richie.
No wonder you have had to create an Atheist Safehouse, when the 12 Stepism nearly all the support groups here at DS.
The latest member in the anals of the 12 stepism is Abandon-holism - the addiction to find only people who are not available for relationships attractive, while finding people who are available for a relationship unattractive. Better-known as those women who always love married men.
What is 12 stepism? Originally a guy in the 1920's who was a follower of an Anglo-American Nazi Group called the Oxford Group, named William Watson, created a support group called anonymous alcoholics (AA), to cure their drinking problems together. If you would like to read more about it, then read this link (take lots of time with you):
http//www.orange-papers.org
At any rate it does not use a practical approach to solvely the challenges of alcohol addiction, but names it a "moral disease" and a "moral defect in character" and uses as wishy-washy pseudo-protestant religious cult to "cure" alcoholism. Of course it has a miserable failure rate, and even the Havard School of Medicine proved that the probabibilty that you stopped drinking depends on your social infra-structure e.g. if you are still married the probability is higher than if you tried AA.
Never the less they have been banging their own Christian drum for the past 70 years still shouting that "it's the only way", and giving people moral guilt trips about all of life's challenges, and finding more and more people to support their pseudo-cult.
Examples of what the 12 Steps supposedly cure:
Alcoholism (addiction to alcohol)
Narocoticism (addiction to narcotics)
Sexaholism (addiction to porn and sex)
Codependency (originally for AA spouses but now cures heartbreaks and lonliness)
Rape Victim Guilt
Workaholism
Teenager of alcoholics
Adult children of alcoholics
Physically abused / Emotionally abused spouses and children
Abandonaholism (see above)
Spouse Berievement
Child Berievement
Parent Berievement
Cancer illness
Pet Berievement.
And all with the following 12 steps:
1. We admitted we were powerless over [fill in your problem or illness here] รข that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to [name of support group type members here], and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
-----
Really sick is this sin and repentence stuff for things like children of alcoholics (as if they were part of the problem) and having rape victims make lists of people they harmed and be willing to make ammends to them. It suggests a guilt that isn't there.
Amusing is the reaction to such support groups, who will flame you no end if you bother to question their pseudo-religion, which is by the way, heresy to Christian religion, since this "Higher Power" nonsense is putting a deity other than God in place of the Christian God and violates their 10 commandment rule.
Also amusing are when aethists get around to the Gretchen Question, "I'm an aethist. How do I do the 12 steps if I don't really believe in a higher power?" Hard to answer, because the 12 steps and aethism are mutually exclusive.
Not so amusing is that they have become such an instution and have such a powerful lobby that even U.S. courts can sentence you to participate in AA meetings for DUI offenses.
No wonder you have had to create an Atheist Safehouse, when the 12 Stepism nearly all the support groups here at DS.
The latest member in the anals of the 12 stepism is Abandon-holism - the addiction to find only people who are not available for relationships attractive, while finding people who are available for a relationship unattractive. Better-known as those women who always love married men.
What is 12 stepism? Originally a guy in the 1920's who was a follower of an Anglo-American Nazi Group called the Oxford Group, named William Watson, created a support group called anonymous alcoholics (AA), to cure their drinking problems together. If you would like to read more about it, then read this link (take lots of time with you):
http//www.orange-papers.org
At any rate it does not use a practical approach to solvely the challenges of alcohol addiction, but names it a "moral disease" and a "moral defect in character" and uses as wishy-washy pseudo-protestant religious cult to "cure" alcoholism. Of course it has a miserable failure rate, and even the Havard School of Medicine proved that the probabibilty that you stopped drinking depends on your social infra-structure e.g. if you are still married the probability is higher than if you tried AA.
Never the less they have been banging their own Christian drum for the past 70 years still shouting that "it's the only way", and giving people moral guilt trips about all of life's challenges, and finding more and more people to support their pseudo-cult.
Examples of what the 12 Steps supposedly cure:
Alcoholism (addiction to alcohol)
Narocoticism (addiction to narcotics)
Sexaholism (addiction to porn and sex)
Codependency (originally for AA spouses but now cures heartbreaks and lonliness)
Rape Victim Guilt
Workaholism
Teenager of alcoholics
Adult children of alcoholics
Physically abused / Emotionally abused spouses and children
Abandonaholism (see above)
Spouse Berievement
Child Berievement
Parent Berievement
Cancer illness
Pet Berievement.
And all with the following 12 steps:
1. We admitted we were powerless over [fill in your problem or illness here] รข that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His Will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to [name of support group type members here], and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
-----
Really sick is this sin and repentence stuff for things like children of alcoholics (as if they were part of the problem) and having rape victims make lists of people they harmed and be willing to make ammends to them. It suggests a guilt that isn't there.
Amusing is the reaction to such support groups, who will flame you no end if you bother to question their pseudo-religion, which is by the way, heresy to Christian religion, since this "Higher Power" nonsense is putting a deity other than God in place of the Christian God and violates their 10 commandment rule.
Also amusing are when aethists get around to the Gretchen Question, "I'm an aethist. How do I do the 12 steps if I don't really believe in a higher power?" Hard to answer, because the 12 steps and aethism are mutually exclusive.
Not so amusing is that they have become such an instution and have such a powerful lobby that even U.S. courts can sentence you to participate in AA meetings for DUI offenses.
Imagine if you will - bipolarism, ADD, emotional addiction are relatively unknown in countries like France, Germany, Poland, Italy and Spain. Most people do not take regular medication for depression.
Instead they keep suggesting people to get into cognitive behaviour therapy for what they call psychosomatic illnesses - for things like depression, bipolarism, fibromyalgia, addiction and asthma.
And to explain, because there is a mis-understanding what a psychosomatic illness is:
A psychosomatic illness is NOT an imaginary illness. It is a VERY real illness which results from stress-overload based on psychological difficulties. So conditions which are chronic such as depression and bipolarism are not caused primarily from "chemical imbalances" in your brain, but from environmental and psychological stress.
Opposed to their American colleagues, most German psychologists believe that pseudo-religious support groups actually cause more psychological harm than good, and often have huge challenges treating people for alcohol addiction after they have been brainwashed by the AA and their pseudo back-and-forth notions between sin and repentence.
I said that I was an atheist & would not go as it violated my lack of religious beliefs.
She said that if I knew more about the program, I would know that a Higher Power can be anything.
I countered that I had been a drug/alcohol counselor for 7 yrs, knew the program quite well, and that there was no god to turn my will & my life over to.
She shrugged & let it go, not understanding what atheist means, really.
That is not to say i don't have faith, religion & moralities are an insult 2 true faith, just as god is not necessary in spirituality. Science has proved this thru quantum physics... etc. In my own sobriety it has been vital for me to accept wht wrks for othr ppl, that does not mean i agree or that it is the same as wht wrks 4 me, although there are certainly similarities... and therefore unity. I do not evn adhere 2 the popularly conveyed 12stp ideaology of a "higher power", as the wrd higher implies the infrastructure that is so rapidly collapsing society thru superiority and "better than" philosophy. Sometimes i wish that othrs could c wht i do... that their hypothetical god does not exist at all, if not in them & n evrything and evryone around them... this keeps ppl constantly striving for an unrealistic ideal, 2 get higher~ more & better is the nature of addiction, but so is rebellion, so there is quite the conundrum here. Ultimately faith is necessary 4 me 2 stay sober, that's difficult for me 2 accept sumtimes~ i often digress trying to undrstand the ways of the wrld & it's ppl... in my faith i recognize nrg instead of power as much more versatile & practically applicable in my daily lyfe, i can respect the differences & share the similarites, i don't hve nethng 2 prove 2 ne1~ but i'm doing a dis-service to all if i do not share or give on whtevr level is appropriate 4 me. I don't cringe whn othrs use the g-wrd... they r jst telling a story, the only 1 they know aftr thousands of yrs of fear & oppression. whn u look & listen closely 2 the beloved blue book frm AA it jst becomes more & more antiquated 2 the point of becoming obsolete, that doesn't mean it can't be personally revised or adapted, as lng as the principles r still there: honest-opn minded-willing. Do wht wrks 4u, take wht u need & leave the rest...
I like that u are a thinker, that is a prized rarity in these times. yes, it's statistically estimated that more thn 80% of physical ills can be psychosomatically linked... but a lot also rests on our perceptions & the nrg we give 2 the manufactured illusions around us, like herd mentality. sadly instead of changing our minds thru slf directed initiative it's easier for the gov't to sell the fast easy fix (?!) DRUGS, hmmm... You are hungry: for change, for the future, for logic & enlightened progress, but be mindful of the moment as it is part of our evolution 2.
If u are seeking sobriety, please do not give up... go 2 the mtgs evn if you thnk evryone there is jst a pathetic parrot. I suggest: listening & watching to see who walks their talk & has an insight & quality to their lyfe that you admire (there will likely be vry few), observe who is trustworthy and armed with the facts about themselves & their relationship with alcohol/drugs (again~ likely vry few), ask them to sponsor you, do the work (the steps) in order with said sponsor, be willing 2 try whtevr recommendations that person has 4u, be honest and unashamed about what you think & believe & why... if that sponsor tries to make you feel guilty or wrong for wht you believe or why you believe it~ move on. You may always notice the glaring differences, but soon you may be able to hear some similarities & find serenity also.
Your post is too windy & full of internetisms to follow.
1) how can you say there is no god but there is spirituality? What the hell does that mean?
That's like saying there are no window panes, but there are windows.
2) how do you reword the warmed-over methodist views of 12 steps into atheist-speak? Really, I want to know.
3) Have you heard of RR? Rational Recovery? The Small book? Cognitive restructuring?
I think that most if not all 12 step people switch their addictions from drugs to meetings.
i speak as a happy ex-12 stepper myself. Glad & much healthier out than in.
Still, I would like to hear your answers.
1~ I don't think i said that "there is no god" per se, what i mean to convey is that I believe it is an association with our patriarchally ruled planet. A means of control which is reflected in many of our laws & so-called moralities, ingrained in what we typically believe 2b "right" &/or "wrong", & affecting what we do.
Just because I don't believe in god~ does not mean there isn't 1 (or many), but i do believe it's a conception which is largely created by the mind & ingrained thru social programming to instill certain ideals. What that means, is exactly your statement about there being windows but no window panes... there may be structure, but it is not necessary. That structure is intact only because the mind has made it so, & compliance of collective energy has reinforced such structure. What I hve seen of spirituality is essentially just energy, not just of living beings, but also matter as well as place. What does that mean... it means that different inanimate objects or evn places may be/or become programmed with intent, an emotional imprint, or a story... spirituality in an energy context has no bias about our contrived "right" or "wrong", nor evn any perceived "good" or "evil".
I believe in various types of spiritual beings, which may or may not exist in our own reaity or in parallels to our own reality. Evn angels... BUT i don't believe they answer to any god or pantheon of gods~ they need not be associated with religion: but religion will likely claim them. I believe they may be independent contractors of the universe... why, you may ask... I don't know, i may nvr know. There are universal mysteries which science has long puzzled over that we may only ever hope to have full or conclusive insight of. It does not mean we should not seek solution, nor that mortals are finite. Just that we have not reached the point in our growth processes (either personally or collectively, as humanity) to have infinite knowledge revealed to us, as we may not be able to understand or accept it yet.
1- I admitted I was powerlless over lyfe, that my consumptin of alcohol (&drugs) was unmanageable.
I needed to take this out of the "we" context because it's part of conformity & herd mentality. When i 1st came to the 12 stp program, i relapsed several times. And it was a nightmare each time... then i realized i was telling evryone else wht they wanted to hear... "my name is_____, & i'm an alcoholic"... yet i had not conceded to my innermost self that i had lost the power of choice in drinking. That once i pick up a drink i hve no control ovr how much i drink, when i stop, or what i do. From my 1st experience with drinking, I was a blackout drinker. This became a typical pattern for me. The only times i would have~ just a beer, or a shot, were just attempts 2 prove to myself that i didn't have a problem. And would be followed inevitably by an incoherent blacked out bender, complete with D.T.'s, i wouldn't eat because it would fuck up my buzz, sometimes i would be so sick i couldn't evn hold water down~ that's part of the unmamageability. The personal acknowledgemnt of what i really am was more important than establishing common ground with what others may be.
I rephrase & say that i am powerless over lyfe, because it's a type of spiritual transition. I begin to become open inded & willing to see the importance of the almighty iz: that it's not so much what could or should happen in lyfe, or during my consumption of certain substances, as what does happen. This includes the statistical psych research: that persons with both genetic history of alcoholism/addiction in their family line & a history of trauma, are at least 80% more likely to be/become alcoholics or addicts themselves... which has been a truism for me.
That's why it's necessary for me to acknowledge I'm powerless ovr lyfe. Unless I somehow had a choice in who i was born to, or control over what i survived in my most formative yrs before i began drinking/using/acting out... Unlike the explanation of the 1st stp in A.A.'s 12x12, it's not so much an "admission of complete defeat" for me, as a realization of who & what i was, completely consumed by alcoholism & addiction: i lived for little else (today i am glad to know i am sooo much more, but that has been a process).
I could elaborate on the rest of my stps but i suspect i hve already been long winded enuf for today...?! (:grins:)
BTW:
Why do you spell "life" with a Y?
Nevermind