Any "abnormal" birth situation could be brought into question of whether or not it's the cause of certain disorders. Unless there is concrete abnormalities at birth that cause conditions such as CP, down syndrome, spinal bifeda etc etc, the drs will classify a condition that comes about later as "developmental." and will notate if a child had low birth weight, or oxygen deprivation for research purposes. But to say for a fact that oxygen deprivation caused AS or not, I doubt any dr will say yes, unless they had the report from the attending physician the day you were born. Even then it would become a big Maybe. May I ask why It matters now? Are you doing research to see how many ASPIES had this same or similiar experience at birth, or are you angry and trying to point blame? If that's the case, please don't, be happy with who you are, because you could have been born with so much worse. Be grateful for who you are and what you have become, don't dwell on the whys and the becauses.

@sowie

I have a big problem with whys and becauses, they often consume me. I wonder how people are able to live "simple lives". I'm always trying to explain things through systematic approaches, and if I could somehow stop that, my anxiety would be decreased significantly, or may go away entirely.

So many a good mood of mine has been spoiled by "what if"?

You statement of "I have a big problem with whys and becauses...." sounds exactly like what my therapist said to me (about me). She said that people with autism have a hard time "moving on" if they have an unanswered question about something. That statement was not in regards to a simple question such as "is it going to rain tomorrow", but deeper issues, similar to what you are trying to figure out here. That one trait makes my life very difficult and complicated...

As for the causes of autism, that will probably be a subject of much debate for a very long time and I like to research or theorize about possible causes myself. I read somewhere that it is believed the autistic brain starts to form differently in early pregnancy. The article was very interesting; it stated specific brain development abnormalities at different stages of pregnancy. I will try to find that article and post a link to it.

I have read in more than one place online that there are physical differences between the autistic brain and a typical brain, so I would tend to think the causative factors for autism must be present either before pregnancy, or very early in the pregnancy. Several articles noted that MRI scans show differences in brain structure for people with Autism Spectrum Disorders. Now that I think about it, I dont know if those physical differences were noted early in life, or if the differences in structure formed over time due to the autistic brain functioning differently than typical brains (unused parts of the brain may atrophy over time causing the autistic brain to have visible physical differences).

I will have to do more research about the MRI scans which show differences in physical brain structure. If those differences are noticed during pregnancy or right after birth, then I would think that an event during birth would not be a cause. I will get back to you on that

I think your hypothesis that cerebral hypoxia as a cause for some people's ASD is very plausible. Since ASD is a neurological condition, there is a difference in the neurological system of a person with ASD and a neuro-typical person. It may not show up on MRI but there are many neurological issues that come with ASD. I think that's why there seems to be such a high correlation with sensory processing disorder, visual disturbances, proprioception, motor skills, speech, social skills, emotional regulation, etc.. These are all associated with certain portions of the brain. There are some doctors who theorize that head compression or some other head trauma is a cause of ASD. I think that ASD is caused by some kind of harm to the neurological system, whether it be from trauma, compression, drugs, oxygen deprivation, or genetic cause.

@bestnom

Its not my hypothesis, it's something I've read about.

@whyamist...

Thank you for your input; it tends to help people, myself included, if they know there are others who have similar, if not identical problems, even if those problems arise form different stimuli, as the same infernal effects are always there: the cognitive dissonance, the not knowing what you feel or why you feel it--have you experienced these?

I sometimes doubt I have AS, but ever since coming across this information in conjunction with what I know about the circumstances of my birth (which is really just today), I'm starting to believe I have it, even if I don't fit the stereotypical image of an aspie all the time (speaking of which, I really should have made that part of my "how to [possibly] identify fake aspies" criteria...long story)

I've had an MRI before, but my mother had them looking for tumors and things like that, not autism or autism spectrum disorders. I'd like to go back or somewhere else and see if they can find anything different. I would at least then "know", since my physical senses would be satisfied.

@ AspIn,

I didn't literally mean "your" hypothesis. I've heard of this before also. I do think it is plausible. My child was born with some of the same things you mention. In fact, this is an area of concern I plan to address with the neurologist. I just wonder what would show definitive proof at this point that there was hypoxia which goes to Sowle's point also.

@ AspIn

Here is another "trait" you mention that I have and it is something that affects me too often: "not knowing what you feel or why you feel it. There is a condition I have that makes it difficult for me to understand how I feel emotionally. It is a strange thing to not know how you feel, I learned what the suspected neurological cause behind this condition is, and that cause made the condition make a lot more sense to me. As I understand it, the region of the brain that emotions are processed is not connected or wired sufficiently to the region of the brain that processes conscious thought and language. Therefore, I can be depressed, feel depressed, and have all the physiological symptoms of depression, but not be consciously aware that I am depressed; I cant think about how I feel, I cant explain to someone how I feel, but that does not mean that the depression does not affect me.

It didnt make sense to me, How could I have difficulty understanding my own emotions? but I knew it was a problem for me when my therapist started talking to me about it. Once I heard the theory on the neurological cause of this condition (Ill try to find a link to it, it was online somewhere), the condition made a lot more sense to me. Understanding how the physiology caused the symptom was basically that answer that I was seeking, the neurology was the why that I needed to satisfy. I think the AS facial perception issue is explained by a similar neurological cause but that in itself can be a separate discussion that I would enjoy participating in (if anyone is interested).

I agree with your view that cause of a symptom is not always important in dealing with the symptom itself, I guess for me I am always needing to understand the reasons Why I am the way I am, so it makes the cause very important to me, regardless of whether or not it is an autism related problem I am trying to understand.

I guess the important thing to do is to understand what symptoms we have and how to manage them. The cause is not always important when it comes to coping with or managing problems. My therapist is good at bringing symptoms to my attention and helping me to cope with them, but I cant stop thinking about the reasons I have those symptoms I need to answer the question Why (and she is not so helpful with explaining the neurological cause). I get stuck looking for the cause, I cant move on until I understand "why" I have the symptom/condition/problem

I am curious about your not knowing what you feel or why you feel it. Can you elaborate on that? Do you have the same difficulties I do when it comes to understanding your current emotional state? Does it sometimes take someone else asking you if you are depressed before you start to realize that you might be? (depression is just an example I dont think you are depressed) I remember someone else in the group bringing up this topic before; I dont recall if it was you or someone else. This lack of emotional awareness is something I have done some research on and it is something that has a large impact on my everyday life.

@whymist

Hey, I'm sorry I'm getting this to you a bit later than I would normally, but the internet seems to fuel unhealthy fascinations and obsessions for me...plus I had to eat and watch Jeopardy, lol.

Anyway, As far as the "not knowing what I feel" thing goes, one extreme example from around a month or so ago was when I was convinced I was envying someone; the more I talked about it with my mom, the less like envy it became (more like disgust).

And there is also the issue of when someone asks me "how does that make you feel", to which I can only respond "I don't know", or devote at least ten seconds to considering the question.

@whyamist

I'd also like to add that, after an untold duration of time of torturing myself looking for a reason why I'm like this, I stumbled across a term that seems to describe what we feel(or don't know we feel?); its called "alexithymia", and is roughly defined as difficulty in identifying feelings and emotions in one's self. It does go along with ASD's, also, so that's something a tad encouraging (in the sense that that might be our problem) perhaps.

@ AspIn

Alexithymia is what I was referring to, I dont think it is an official diagnosis on its own (I could be wrong), but it is my list of "condition" in my chart. I have talked about it a lot with my therapist and with friends who "knows about me...". You are right that it is common among people with ASD's.

I have a hard time understanding other peoples emotions, so it only makes sense that I have trouble understanding my own feelings....

For me, it is usually the case that I dont feel anything at all, or I feel "OK", but in reality something is bothering me and I am just not "aware" of it. Usually what happens is someone around me notices that something "is wrong" with me, they notice somehow that I am upset (those NT's have psychic abilities). Once they start to talk to me about what they think is bothering me, once it comes to my conscious thought, then I start to realize that I am really upset about something...

The more I learn about myself, the weirder I get : |

With me it's just that I'm not sure what I feel, I feel something, I just don't know what. There might be times when I don't feel anything, but I might just be thinking I don't, or thinking I do, which throws me off to the cognizance of whether or not I am.

Some interesting points....I was premature 2 months and had many issues at birth......I have often thought that my birth problems and Autism might be related....
Also at WHY AM I STILL--wanting to know the whys and how comes and basically obssessing and not letting go is one of my BIGGEST problems......
at ASPIN--I usually know what I feel but don't always know why. Sometimes it has to do with obssessing and not letting go....go figure!

I will have to look into the circumstances of my birth. I was "stuck" on the idea that the autistic brain is physically different than an NT brain; I believed these differences started from conception. This discussion is making me question that assumption.

I read several research papers on autistic brains showing physical differences than typical non-autistic brains. Maybe the "cause" of the physical brain differences that were noted in the MRI scans in these studies could be the result of many years of the autistic person using their brain in a different way than an NT does.

My aversion to looking at faces must have had an effect on the region of my brain that processes facial perception. The under-use of that area must have caused a noticeable change.

We clearly think "differently" than normal people, I think we can all agree on that. I think the effect of this different way of thinking is as interesting as the cause (in regards to the physiology).

By the way, my name is Kevin, that is a lot easier to use than whyamistillalive (I did not put much thought into creating my username)

@ "Kevin"

Pleased to meet you, I'm Elliot. my full user name is "AspInTheBrush:", like Aspie-Asp-as in snake? Thought it was cool at the time, but it kind of makes me sound deceptive or something.
I can look at faces, just not when they're looking at me, although I often do make eye contact intentionally, for about 2 seconds then go back to looking wherever I was. I'm also really touchy about people looking at me, I tend to look around to see if they are, then, out of the corner of my eye, see if they still are. I'll sometimes see someone staring at me, and, perhaps to be sure they are, stare back at them, until they stop.

@mamamoe

I certainly understand the "obsessing and not letting go", may I ask what you obsess over?

Hi Elliot, when it comes to looking at faces, it was something I never liked doing. I dont think about it, I dont try to look at people, it is just natural for me to look somewhere else. Since it was not known that I had an Autism Spectrum Disorder for most of my life, no one ever put much thought into why I dont look at people. However, in elementary school, teachers would get mad at me for not looking at them, I would often hear Look at me when I am talking to you. I heard this a lot since I was getting into trouble in elementary school a lot and was being disciplined a lot. Since I was forced to look at my teachers face when they were yelling at me or whatever, I would do so, but within a few seconds, my eyes would drift away from their face. Here is where that became a big problem, my eyes always drifted down from their faces. So the female teachers thought I was looking at their breasts. It seems obvious that I shouldnt look there, but I was never consciously aware of whether or not I was looking at peoples faces.

Even as a young adult, I never put much thought into my dislike of looking at peoples faces, I just didnt do it. I never wondered why it bothered me, I am generally unaware of the behavior until it causes a problem when interacting with others. When a person, whose name is unknown, is being talked about, people usually refer to that unknown person by explaining what they look like. When I am participating in a conversation like that, my friends will stop their verbal description of the unknown persons face and begin to tell me what kind of shoes that person was wearing. I think they do this to be funny, it often makes a joke of me, but honestly it is the best way to refer to someone whose name is unknown to me (I get laughed at often enough for that, but it doesn't bother me).

The question of why I dont look at faces came to mind recently. That was a question I got stuck on and I needed to figure out. I am told that the primary cause of avoiding eye contact is due to low self-esteem; that there are many other psychological reasons for the behavior as well, and all of those psychological reasons need to be ruled out before the behavior can be solely attributed to AS. In regard to AS, the avoidance of eye contact is noticeable at a very young age, usually before these other psychological causes could take effect. As an infant and young child I avoided eye contact; there was something about me that made me avoid it my whole life. I read a research study on this subject and I talked to my therapist about it. I do not think the studys results were 100% conclusive, as most of the research of Autism is not, but it had some very interesting findings. In an autistic person, the region of the brain that processes facial perception has some wiring problems. In fMRI scans, a real-time video shows which areas of the brain are being utilized by tracking increased blood flow to those regions. Showing the subject of the scan pictures of faces and having the person try to concentrate on them shows increased blood flow to the area of the brain that processes facial perception. That is the expected finding; however, the scan also shows increased blood flow to the region of the brain that causes negative feelings, negative emotions, basically the part of the brain that makes you feel uncomfortable. When we look at someones face, it makes us feel bad; thus we avoid looking at faces. The area of our brain that controls facial perception is wired to the part of the brain that causes negative feelings; it is simply a mis-wiring in our brain that makes us avoid looking at people.
After reading about this study, it made sense to me. I know why I never liked looking at peoples faces. This study did not make any official findings, but I was told that the concept of the wiring problem is generally accepted, and it sure does make sense to me. There is a lot of psychological reasons that people avoid eye contact, but for those of us with an ASD it is the neurological reason that we get stuck on. I guess some of us could have both problems, making it even harder to cope with, but the end result is the same regardless of the reason.

I think the lack of looking at people is the root cause of most of my social difficulties. I never learned non-verbal communication skills since I dislike looking at others. I intentionally look at peoples faces as an adult whenever I think of it, but that alone will not replace a lifetime of lost experience in understanding and processing subtle non-verbal cues from other people. It is no longer the lack of eye contact that is the problem; it is the lifelong learning process of interacting with others and reading their reactions to our words and actions that is lost. I can learn to consciously pick up on other peoples more obvious non-verbal cues, but the tiny subtleties in peoples facial expressions, the slight movement of their eyes, the slight change in the tone of their voice, all those little things that are picked up on by NTs, word by word in a conversation, I will not be able to do that in real-time, not to the effectiveness that non-autistic people can.

It is never too late to learn, but I lost about 30 years of experience. Does anyone else have any knowledge on this subject? I like learning about the neurology of Autism; I find the human brain fascinating and much research is being done recently in this area. Everything above about the cause of aversion to eye contact is not fully agreed upon and there is much debate about it. The studies I read were not 100% conclusive and they could be wrong, but the ideas that the studies suggested are intriguing and I thought they were worth mentioning. I will try to find links to the webpages where I read about these studies and post them in a reply to this discussion, I read them last year and am not sure if I can find them again, but I will try.

Kevin : |