I can very much identify with interpretations of good and evil that are left as an imprint of religious affiliations and their teachings. I spent a good 20 years of my life trying to make sense of these types of teachings and reconciling them with the world around me.

I don't want to make this a big theological discussion, and yet the origin of this notion of good and evil seems to be ingrained in most religious philosophies. It creates separation, a deep division: Worthy and unworthy. Clean and unclean. Entitled to an afterlife fit for royalty and eternal suffering. Essentially it comes down to conform or be punished. And I think in many ways it promotes this avoidance to take responsibility for one's actions.

Several years ago, I threw out everything I had been told and taught by others. I stopped living and walking other people's path and began my very own spiritual journey. During that time, I became a seeker and completely redefined my concept of a higher power. I realized that in spite of all the mistrust, fear, and doubt that I carry around, deep down inside I wanted to believe in good. I guess the idealist in me wants to believe that we all carry good inside, some urge to be good, to do good, that somehow we can be an outlet for a loving creative intelligence, god, whatever you may want to call it.

I have come to believe that my higher power power is inherently good, all-inclusive, and without judgment. There will always be people who will do bad, hurtful deeds. These people are driven by many things, be that greed, jealousy, hatred, religious conviction, mental illness, you name it. And when we are the recipients of these hurtful actions, we suffer.

I have been sitting here contemplating your question if the pain and suffering we experience may be due to the sickness of family dysfunction being transmitted from one generation to the next. I don't think anyone can deny the pain and suffering that comes along with dysfunctional, destructive family dynamics. But I struggle with the thought of continuing to transmit it to future generations. All too often I hear justifications such as “they did the best they could,” or “it's a result of their upbringing.” I do not buy into that. I think it could become quite easy to use a history of family dysfunction as an excuse to accept responsibility for my choices and behavior today. Yes, I still today suffer from my parents abusive behavior, but it stops with me. I refuse to pass this legacy to my son.

I believe that compassion will go a long ways to help us heal from the fears and doubts we hold. And that compassion has to start with myself. I find it difficult to give something to others that I don't have for myself.

Thank you for this thought-provoking post.

Pollyanna checking in here! *smiling*
I hope I don't sound too simple in my thoughts but I truly believe that we are born inherently good. I believe in the goodness of people. I believe that deep down even within those we find it incredibly hard to love that there is inside them a child of God crying out for love, compassion and kindness, understanding and the ability to be able to trust.
I believe that a person who was planted into a dry arrid ground surrounded by suffocating grasping weeds with no loving or tenderness poured over them can blossom when uprooted and put into a rich nurturing soil and some gentle sunshine. I find this place a rich loving soil.
It takes time to readjust and to learn how to trust again and let people close but I have seen too many loving people to allow my family to have the final word in my mind as to what human beings are.

Whenever I come across somebody who really tests me , I try to remember that they were somebody's baby once. That brings a softening to my heart. I have seen people 'loved' better - to a place where they can then be loving towards others. I have sat next to grown men sobbing their hearts out after having been touched gently on the cheek. Some of these men have commited crimes for which alot of society would want them thrown on the scrap heap.

I can still see the world as very threatening and a nasty place to be but I only have to think of some people I know and the wonderful acts of heroism and love and care that go on in the world to get my perspective back.
With that said I send you both love and hugs,
Karen xx

I sort of subscribe to the thought that people do the best they can and their behaviors are a result of upbringing. But I see it only as an explaination and not an exuse. There are lots of people out there who had a tough childhood yet, they do not let it hamper them from becoming better that that. To do better that they they had to deal with.

That is the human character I believe. The ability to shrug off hardships andeven horrors of childhood and achieve greats things. Becoming great parents though their upbringing showed them nothing of the sort, become generous though they had nothing, loving when they received no love.

How else can you explain places such as these where people share so unreservedly, in the atempt to not only to deal with their own pain and confusion, but to let others know that there is a better way, they are not alone and that there is unconditionaly love and support out the just for the asking.

I in no way critisize those who can't get past their past. I think there are those that have a hole in them so deep they can never fill it. They will always be in survival mode just trying to keep their nose out of the water. But ther are those who have been through things that others can't even comprehend and you see them in every walk of life getting out there with their hands out trying to make things better for someone else. To me that signifies the human condition, that shining soul, more than anything else.

Yes, the nastiness gets a lot more press. But ther are billions of people who quietly go about their lives doing good, in lage and samll ways,to eachother and as a result,to themselves.

I think if there is "evil" is is the result of the choices people make when they confront hardship and difficulty.

Wow... a very good and thought provoking post. I don't like the word "evil" that is just so harsh... so permanent. I don't like any of the words that cause extremes as in good-bad, kind-mean... I look at it as healthy and unhealthy. What is healthy for my soul will, in theory make me "good" while what is unhealthy will make me "evil."

And while I believe we all have the capacity to be good... to be emphatic and caring... I believe we need to learn how to be that way.

When I first started dealing with the abuses I suffered as a child, a therapist told me to watch children... see how they play and how they relate to their parents. And what I saw was that children are "seen" and "acknowledged" when they are being unhealthy or bad. And what they were doing was usually just being kids.

I began to believe that I didn't need to learn how to be bad... but I needed to learn how to be good. Nobody taught me how to steal candy from a store... or how to cheat on a test... I just knew how to do it... and didn't feel bad about it until I began to learn how to be good.

While I didn't need to be taught how to steal or lie or anything bad, I did need to learn how to say "thank you" and "please" and to hold a door open for someone.

Like I said I don't like the word "evil" but I do believe it doesn't take much to be that way... but it takes a spiritually sound and centered person to be "good."

Thanks for this post,
Dave

Agreed.... Great Share :)

I truly have mixed feelings about such things, because my "False" thinking before I became to the 12 steps, left me to believe that there was No Good in the world, It led me to feel like the Only person Of Trust was Me....

I didn't Grow up in the Church but when did go, what I saw was 1) My Parents Wanted time to Argue... 2) Mom "THought" it would Help & 3) Everyone there... (Thru My Eyes) Talked about Each other, as soon as they left the room, and I Heard them Gossip about my family, & my Fathers Disease, so too me... They were not to be trusted as well... And My Parents wasnt there, I was Dropped off, or taking by a neighbor most times....

Since My Program, and My "Awakening of My Soul", I Feel that the Choices I made from 18 UP were My Own, it doesn't matter what Up bringing I had, it doesn't matter if My Parents were addicts, or cody's... What Matters is Who "I AM" Too Me, and those around me... My Grandma would say, "Treat others as you would like to be treated", well that would be easy for most but for me, I didn't have a clue how to do much other then Lie, Manipulate, Conive, and Weisel my way thru life because all I knew was that life style when I looked around...

So Like Dave Mentioned, I have to take the Small Part of me that "burned" for the Good In Me, and Run with it, I have to TEACH myself to Love, Listen, and Learn GOOD... Since Program, I have (I Feel) Improved a LARGE Amount, now if you was to ask those "Not" in Program, they will tell you I changed, but Im not sure that ALL would see it as a "GOOD" Change... And to Me... Thats OK... I don't Judge them for it becuase it wasn't very long ago... That was ME!

I Believe that there is Good in All People, Some are just not giving the chance to Learn Good... When all you see is Bad, Good is Very Tough to find, But I do believe that most people can change, if they can find a HP that suits them and gives them a Piece of what I have recieved from mine... I believe Good is Within, and the More you Breathe it in, the better it will come out!

Again.... Thank you Very much for this ... Great Thoughts :0)

In Recovery... One Day at a Time....

Thank you everyone for such an amazing collection of thoughtful responses. It's awesome to be able to come someplace where the language of recovery is spoken so freely and so well.

To clarify, I find that I can no longer go with the assumption that people are evil. From a metaphysical point of view, I do believe that everyone has conflicting forces for "right" and "wrong" inside, and which way we choose is a reflection on our state of healtfulness at that point in time. And to put it bluntly, just as I believe in God as my Higher Power, I also believe that Satan exists and wishes to come between everyone and their HP as much as possible.

As I go deeper into understanding my past, one thing that amazes me is how my life has been affected by alcoholics I barely knew (and some that I never even met.) My parents weren't alcoholic, and neither were my grandparents, although others in my grandparents' generation were, and so the disease's effects seeped through my family. My first wife had an alcoholic father, and although he died before I ever met him, his disease profoundly affected his daughter's life to the point where our marriage was an abusive, codependent nightmare. I am thankful that we didn't have any kids in that environment.

Today, my forever wife comes from a comparatively healthy family and has two very healthy kids. One of them gave us a granddaughter four months ago, and the other is due in another month. I can't tell you how excited I am to be able to learn, as I develop nurturing relationships with these grandchildren, how finally to re-parent myself and heal some very old wounds. (My therapist even has a name for it: "parallel processing.")

Thanks again for such thoughtful shares. Blessings on ya.

Congratulations Grandpa

OOH! Yes!! Congratualtions 1911A1 !!! ...and I LOVE that term 'forever wife' !!! It's lovely!
Wishing you joy and happiness!
((hugs))
Karen

anagami said______All too often I hear justifications such as “they did the best they could,” or “it's a result of their upbringing.” I do not buy into that. I think it could become quite easy to use a history of family dysfunction as an excuse to accept responsibility for my choices and behavior today. Yes, I still today suffer from my parents abusive behavior, but it stops with me."


I 2nd this 100%....my father used me as his whore...his gratification....his personal piece of meat....i lived in a universe of 1..his evil 1......i didn't exist except in how he created me to exist.....well??? did i turn into a child raper??? an animal torturer???? a bad person???? HELL NO!!!! why???? b/c it is just not IN me 2 do such heinous and dark deeds.....no the buck stopped with me too.....i fight to help kids....i fight to help animals.....i fight evil, period.......

i think it is all to easy to "blame the devil" or blame the "oh well they did the best they could" i think that is bulls**t......my father did the "best he could" by trundling down his spider's web to suck the life out of me 2 to 3 times a week all during my teens???? he did the "best he could" by not feeling any remourse 4 his horrible acts???? NO.....and my mother???? she was my judas....sold me out to him 4 her bottle of booze.......she KNEW he was murdering me but did nothing except to blame me to justify her INaction.....i believe in karma and I know that 2 this day and until I die, she is going to have to (she is dead now, in her afterlife) i know that she is going to have to walk my path until i die...experience the karma she allowed to befall me , she is going to have to experience my post trauma stress symptoms, my tears wen another reminder of my hell comes up, she is going to have to experience this so she can understand and perhaps learn what she did to me

i had a dream to this very affect.....she was pleading with me to not give up or dump my recovery, to not get sick of recovery and walk away, she was pleading with me b/c she has to experience all my pain and wen my ptsd makes me so sick i can't move, she has to feel and experience it......thats only fair.....to stand by and witness a crime is just as bad , almost, as doing it....

i think, 4 me, as well as anagami said, i dumped the bible and all the religious stuff that was *taught* me...wen my offender was in my bedroom, his "god" told him in his bible that "god wants the father's to teach their daughters about sex" and i wonder why I am an agnostic who leans towards budhist/eastern/native american thoughts......i dumpd all those old teachings where if U don't conform, u go to hell, and "do it my way or U go 2 hell" why so much force and intimidation and fear/control??? i dumped that....don't want anything 2 do with it

in spite of all the evil done 2 me, i turned out to B a very loving, caring, compassionate, empathetic human being......i HATE suffering....I wanna KILL predators...i wanna help the helpless creatures being harmed and they cannot fight back.....

if anyone had the *right* 2 B a serial killer, it is me.....I didn't go that route b/c it just is not in me

do i do bad stuff??? sure!!!! temptation, and fear (mostly its fear based 4 me) but yea, we are here under free will and choice and its our free will, be it 4 the good or bad that determines the character of a person.....i CHOSE to B a blessing 2 my little universe and the ones whose lives I touch

my take is this.........good people feel bad when they do bad.....bad people don't give a damn....my bio sperm donar was the 2nd one

just my take, please use what U can and dump the rest