refer back to our 12 traditions

I have to admit I don't feel real welcome here.

Long before any actual recovery ever got started, I began my "in the Fellowship" experience hearing this repeatedly emphasized at nearly every meeting:
"Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers, depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs." (page 20)

Along with being told I would either "do what is in the book or die", and on the thought of what we have here having first been "hammered out on the anvil of experience" (12&12), my first sponsor often said he was going to "hammer the anvil chorus on you're a$$ every chance I get", and he did!

Such was my introduction to, or my first example of an A.A./AA member trying to be helpful to others. Whew.

Quite some time later, and after my own recovery had actually begun, someone else then brought what they said was "the rest of the story" to my attention:

"Most of us sense that real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for their opinions are attitudes which make us more useful to others. Our very lives, as ex-problem drinkers, depend upon our constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs." (page 20)

At that point, I had to ask what specific "needs" we were trying to help meet, and who is the principal we are trying to help meet them?

I found part of that answer here:
"... hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents." (page 62)

Okay, so now I understood we are to try to help God meet the needs of others, and that our lives depend upon our constant thought of those others and how we might help Him meet their needs ... then I found some more perspective here:

"You can secure their confidence when others fail. Remember they are very [spiritually?, mentally?, emotionally?] ill." (page 89)

Okay, got it ... but still, what about "real tolerance of other people's shortcomings and viewpoints and a respect for their opinions"?

Well, shortcomings are something we all need to be rid of, so this is certainly not about "protecting" anyone's shortcomings so s/he can keep them without fear of ever having them brought to his or her attention and addressed. However, we do not approach shortcomings until we get to Steps Four through Nine ... so okay, we will leave those alone for right now. Got it.

Next, what about the viewpoints of others?

Well, all the principles are the same:

"Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely." (page 58)

So of course, the Steps, not us, will eventually take care of any harmful viewpoints ... and now that leaves us with the matter of opinions ... and we all know how non-useful those can be, right?!

To summarize so far, then, and this is how I actually sorted this stuff out and learned it for myself many years ago:

"That the man who is making the approach has had the same difficulty ... that he has no attitude of Holier Than Thou, nothing whatever except the sincere desire to be helpful ... no fees to pay, no axes to grind, no people to please, no lectures to be endured - these are the conditions [of tolerance and respect] we have found most effective. After such an approach many take up their beds and walk again." (pages 18-19)

My first sponsor was one of the most tolerant and respectful people I have ever met. He never derided or mocked or treated me like a some kind of dummy that should have known better, and he never reached for his belt like my father used to do almost daily. Without ever allowing me to hide or to hide behind anything whatsoever, he listened to absolutely everything I ever had or wanted to say, then asked me whether I was done talking, then quietly, tolerantly, respectfully and patiently explained how all of that would be dealt with and changed in the days ahead. That scared me quite a bit at times, yet I had somehow come to believe either he or someone else would walk me through it ... and you did.

May we all ever do likewise for the recovery prospect, newcomer and even for each other right here on this board.

Nods I hear ya.
.
BUT as I was taught in the beginning on this journey " it is what it is ' Acceptance

And I have no control of other people's actions.

Sad but true gjm. (sigh).

G8 get off your esky.

Gr8ful, I absolutely support what you say. It would be cool to get back to carrying the simple message of recovery to those who need it rather than indulging in some of the nonsense that has been going on lately.

Gr8ful, I also totally support what you are saying and I believe this is a kindly and tolerant approach. I think those who object should maybe have a look at what is bothering them about this. Has acceptance of anything and everything clouded the view? Are these not real people behind each avatar who have feelings too - whatever your "method of recovery." Hopefully peoples sensibilities matter a whole lot more than having the last word - or "absolutely anything goes" - that is not spiritual principles. When something is wrong it is wrong.

In my opinion totally unacceptable behaviour would be dealt with even more firmly than this but we have a team of admins and we take a majority vote. I have banned someone in the past and have apologised for my hasty and incorrect action because I did it in the heat of the moment rather than consult the other admins as I should have done. I was letting my feelings override my spiritual principles. I apologised to the admins too for my hasty action. I learned from that experience. Hopefully I will not make that mistake again as I want to grow spiritually.

Another lesson I learned from that experience is that it is far better to do a spot check inventory before taking action.

Everyone is welcome here if they are helpful and applying spiritual principles. It is hoped they will take corrective action if they are in the wrong. If so, they continue to be welcome. Sarcastic sniping without saying anything helpful or informative about our common solution in the post is becoming unhappily common lately.

I hope we can carry on being respectful to one another and bear in mind that this is an AA friendly discussion group.

Thanks in anticipation.

Well , I've been involved in some lively debates here. I don't call names and I don't think I've flat out called anyone's experience BS but I have been guilty of sarcasm occasionally. I try not to but I'm a sarcastic dastard at heart. It's sort of a fun thing for me and I can take the punches too. Kind of a "trading rocks" sort of guy thing??
In fact, I immensely enjoy these debates and think that done correctly there good food for thought for all. Your request are more than reasonable and I will try to honor them, . We could not have such discussions in an AA meeting so I welcome the oppurtunity to have them here.
Joel

Same here, Joel, and I greatly appreciate the various challenges you either toss my way or I sometimes just jump right on in and presume to intercept!

One thing that *might* be helpful for some folks here to know about me along this kind of line is that I am inherently void of any and all social skills or "emotional intelligence", meaning I am a Spock-like "think it, say it" kind of nut who does not naturally anticipate how other people are going to hear things. So for me, I have to rely on "learned behaviour" in almost a mechanical sense to keep from being unnecessarily offensive, and you must speak to me very directly and clearly if you want me to hear what you are trying to say to me. I do not really know that much about this particular problem of mine, and I have never been officially diagnosed, but I can definitely identify with some things I have read about Asperger's Syndrome, a form of some kind of autism. Oh, and it is perfectly okay to challenge me if you ever think I am hiding behind that kind of deal. After all, I am first and foremost an inherently-self-destructive alcoholic!

I shall be tolerant of others.

I do log onto DS most morning and nights and know it can really send me to bed growly sometimes. I need to think before hitting the send button as I can go into 'child' behaviour (sniggers) when I know I should be posting as an adult.

Anyway, I think if we all keep in mind that posts here should be about helping the newcomer, about passing on what has so freely been given to us, then we can not go far wrong.

Thank you for the reminder.

Just to remind all to respect the fact we will have no personal outbursts on this group. If you have a view you wish to express please do so calmly and respectfully of others. Thanks.

I think this is a wonderful discussion. Please continue.

Yours truly,

Nemorino

Smarter than thou. Holier than thou. Humbler than thou. Smugger than thou. More recovered than thou. Striving for amoral imperfection every day.©

That is truly what we are trying to avoid here but you can't please all of the people all of the time eh?!

Gailly,

Is that the royal "we" or the editorial "we"?

Ditto to Nod, Coogee & gjm. Unfortunate indeed