JESUS IN "written" history 2,015 years ago - he's not in there at all?
Pagan religion and small cults of miscellaneous other "religions and belief systems" is all that existed 2,015 years ago. Christianity hadn't begun yet.
“What sorts of things do pagan authors from 2,015 years ago - the time of Jesus - have to say about Jesus?
Nothing.
As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing.
In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind.
I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus.
In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name, nor a description of a person or existence descriptive of one as Jesus, ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)
2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.
Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles.
Religious historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case.
What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples – or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. Paul virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels.
The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!
Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded.
“What sorts of things do pagan authors from 2,015 years ago - the time of Jesus - have to say about Jesus?
Nothing.
As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries. There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references – nothing.
In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death – even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era – there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind.
I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time – the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus.
In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus’ name, nor a description of a person or existence descriptive of one as Jesus, ever so much as mentioned.” (pp. 56-57)
2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.
Paul seems unaware of any virgin birth, for example. No wise men, no star in the east, no miracles.
Religious historians have long puzzled over the “Silence of Paul” on the most basic biographical facts and teachings of Jesus. Paul fails to cite Jesus’ authority precisely when it would make his case.
What’s more, he never calls the twelve apostles Jesus’ disciples; in fact, he never says Jesus HAD disciples – or a ministry, or did miracles, or gave teachings. Paul virtually refuses to disclose any other biographical detail, and the few cryptic hints he offers aren’t just vague, but contradict the gospels.
The leaders of the early Christian movement in Jerusalem like Peter and James are supposedly Jesus’ own followers and family; but Paul dismisses them as nobodies and repeatedly opposes them for not being true Christians!
Liberal theologian Marcus Borg suggests that people read the books of the New Testament in chronological order to see how early Christianity unfolded.
Replies
n other words, based on the evidence available they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity. At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a historical Jesus became mythologized. However, there is no evidence that a rabbi with the name of Yeshua Ben Yosef existed.
\"At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements.\" they said the same thing at upenn in every secular religion class.
What document is this writing from, 38??
What\'s especially significant is the undisputed fact that the Romans were obsessed with record keeping, and many of those records survived. They wrote about John the Baptist, Herod, Pontius Pilate...but not a word about Jesus. Someone who had a large following would have attracted a lot of attention by the Romans who ruled the area, that\'s why they tracked John the Baptist. The Jews were a rebellious part of the Empire and posed many problems for the provincial rulers.
The story of a savior who was the son of a god in the sky was recorded in detail...he had 12 disciples, had a last supper with them, rose from the dead and ascended into the sky on a cloud to be with his father again. His name was Mithras and the story dates to the fourth century BCE in Persia...aka Iran.
Mithraism was popular with the Romans and encouraged in the military because it downgraded women. Soldiers were discouraged from having families. Mithraism was merged with Christianity by the Roman emporer Constantine in the Fourth Century CE. The birthday of Mithras was celebrated on December 25th, so the Romans made this the birthday of Jesus in the new religion. Before this time, Christians did not celebrate the date of a person\'s birth, they celebrated the day he or she died.
Many religions celebrate the occasion of the apparent return of the sun after the winter solstice, when it reaches the furthest point of its southward retreat from the Northern Hemisphere. So the Romans combined all these into one celebration when they made Christianity the new state religion of the Empire.
Religions always seem to borrow snippets of each other, so none of this was thought to be unusual at the time, I\'m sure. Another forgotten part of Christian history is the fact that there were once a great many gospels, according to records from those early times. They contradicted one another, so the rulers of the Church had a big meeting where they purged them all and left only four. I don\'t remember the name of the meeting...it was a Council of something. Women were much more prominent before that, but the purge drove out most of their part in the Church and replaced it with a more authoritarian, male-dominated rule.
I\'m sure many won\'t believe a word of all this, but if you do some digging in historical references, you will find the story of the early Church in more detail.
I think the two big confabs were the Council of Trent and the Council of Nicaea. These two formed the Church that we know today.
Richie, thanks, i was a religion major at a secular university and they taught exactly what you are saying, in women and religion class they went into the female dominated religions dating back to 10,000 years bce. genesis is the only document in our current bible with any reference to civilization when women dominated religion. they were called matrilinear and matriarchal civilizations and they thrived along the nile. they had no weapons. there was no marriage and people lived as they pleased. one traced their own parentage through the mother only. in the book women and religion by ferguson, they explain a lot of this and have artifacts proving it. that info was banned by patriarchal kurgans who slaughtered many of those people and the info was kept alive through verbal telling of the stories.
the original books offered to create our bible are stored under the vatican. they are still there, they claim, just not public. the best of those books became the new testament.
king constantine is responsible for making christianity the main religion. also zoroastrianism is almost identical to christianity and dates back 5000 years bce, if jesus was, jesus easily could have travelled to persia discovered those beliefs and spread the word creating a new following/religion, as zoroastrians do not accept outsiders. EVERY religion professor at our school admits that had zoroastrians accepted outsiders, all of us would be zoroasters today.
anthropology should be a required class in college because it takes out the cobwebs of people believing cavemen were christian...or even better, people who took american history only and believe civilization began 200 years aqo when usa became a country. omg!
historical geology should also be required as it deals with fossils and rock sediment and what in the bible actually occurred according to that evidence. like the great flood. it DID occur. is mentioned in all religions worldwide (and there are easily over 100,000 religions worldwide) and there is sedimentary proof it happened - the stories in religions explaining how a certain region lived after the flood and who their prophet warning them was varies from area to area, but the flood is always mentioned.
also there has been proof since 1938 that humans as evolved beings existed over 3 million years ago when they found COAL with tools and metal goblets lodged inside of it and coal to become coal is always over 3 million years old. however, this information is generally hidden from the mass public as well. mostly because it dispels everything we have been taught about evolution and about the civilizing of humans through religion.
the spanish of spain carry names forward using a hyphen and their phone directories have always been split in two parts with the female name first or the male name first, acknowledging the importance of both, which is also acknowledgement of female dominated religion which existed BEFORE male dominated religion. the photos of mary and jesus are actually of the goddess isis and her son, but the identification depicting who they are was taken off and replaced with the names mary and jesus during the conversion.
in europe celebrating one\'s SAINT day is considered way more important than one\'s birthday. the Sun God was a very popular religion and there were many paintings of him. when they promoted the mary and jesus art they also made jesus into the \"son\" of god, instead of sun god as a way to recruit the followers of the sun-god into christianity.
i\'m with you on all of it. thanks for reading.
Some scholars have opined that Christianity is an amalgamation of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and Mithraism. It certainly has roots in the dogma and legends of all three. Sharing of bread and wine, taking refuge in catacombs, an eternal struggle between good and evil...all from Zoroastrianism.
Comparative mythology...or comparative religion...whichever you choose to call it, has held a fascination for me for a long time. A lot of his started for me when I read the Tao Tse Teng...the Book of Tao...and found passages that were almost word for word from the gospels.
Did you know that the Star Wars stories owe much of their theological framework to Joseph Campbell, one of the world\'s greatest authorities on comparative religion? If you are a student of comparative religion, I\'m sure you know that he and George Lucas were good friends and they created the Star Wars universe together.
I suspect the mythology of Star Wars approximates Dr. Campbell\'s own religious beliefs, which he developed after a lifetime of studying the religious beliefs of so many of the world\'s people. But the Star Wars theology is very similar to Zorastrian beliefs and could have been modeled on that religion.
Sounds about right. We didn\'t have comparative religion as a class. What they do in a secular university is have you take your choice of 6 religion classes and then you choose which concentration (eastern, christian, Judaism etc) of religion you want to study to make it a major for the remaining 6 classes (12 classes in one sphere of learning is a major, plus the first two years of required classes, which are generally the same anywhere, doesn\'t matter where the person studies those, a book is a book so as long as the person is actually reading it and doing their homework you can save a lot of money studying the first two years at any state or county funded college), other wise the six religion classes of your own choosing, count as a minor in religion. The sector of religion you choose is more formed by what classes are available at the hours a person likes to attend class, rather than by what interests the student (otherwise you can wait forever to get into certain classes or be taking classes at hours you normally would never go to class. lol.)
I had heard that about Star Wars and they have a class called Star Trek as a religion which is a similar idea. The word \"God\" is not used in secular schools they say the force most of the time or life force. Look up the Seven levels of Faith, which is learned in general psychology class or human development class, it also gets into all of life being an energy and the highest level of faith is viewing \"god\" as an energy. The lowest level is believing God is a person, like Santa sitting in the sky. Its pretty good.