Better
Yesterday was rough.
It was another texting fiasco. I had been on his phone checking things out when I saw some disturbing texts. Nothing over the top disturbing. I was grateful after our discussion on Monday that he had not deleted anything, but annoyed that one of his co-workers was saying things like, "Talk to me, I'm lonely!" via text and when he did not engage with her (he wasn't rude, but he did blow her off to some extent) she wrote, "U R NO FUN TODAY!"
My hackles rose, as they are wont to do, and I wondered, "Is he usually "fun"? And if so, what does that mean?"
Shortly after that was her saying, "Aw, c'mon, you know I love ya!" as well as some other weirdness, like calling him "Sparkie" (WTF?)
I compared his texts to mine. My male friend had commented on The Spoon Theory that I had posted about, in regards to having FMS with, "You can have some of my spoons," - which, if one didn't know what it was about probably sounds weird at best and maybe, I guess if you really stretched, sort of sexual? I had thanked him and told him... guess what? "You're the best. Love you a billion." To which he had replied, "Love you a billion and one."
I know that "I love you" was meant in a purely platonic way - one friend with a chronic illness supporting another friend with a chronic illness, but that said, taken out of context, why would some random dude be telling me "I love you" and why should I be getting my panties in a knot over my husband's co-worker saying "I love ya" when I don't know the context?
Still. Her messages felt like they were crossing lines. Still. I knew I was being overboard with my paranoia.
I spoke to my friend L. L is very wise, indeed. We discussed the situation thoroughly and she finally said, "Allora, what do you need from him? What can he do to prove his trust?" See, because that's what this boils down to, right? Trust? I don't trust him so every little thing makes me jump.
I scrunched up my face in the way I do. I knotted my brow. I thought. Seriously thought. Instead of thinking what about the texting upsets me, I thought, "What can H do differently? What would ease my mind?"
Part of the affair that bugged me the most is that he supposedly tried to end things but she wouldn't take no for an answer. I've seen at least small email exchanges, one just days before DDay - and guess what? He didn't say NO to her. He kept saying maybe. She would beg him to come over, beg him to let her make dinner. She would beg him to lie to his work and take the night off. His response? "I don't think I can get that night off." "I have a lot of paperwork I need to do." He did NOT say, "No. I am not coming over. Please stop asking me." He did NOT say, "Stop it. I've already told you we are done."
The day after Dday, I demanded to tell his boss at work and ask that he not work with the OW. I was told by his boss, "Oh, I know OW. I'll talk to her and tell her to back off." That was not good enough for me. I wanted H to tell her emphatically NO MORE. But how do you trust those words when, as a betrayed spouse, you are essentially coercing those words? He did as I asked. He called her on speaker phone and allowed me to listen as he told her, "Do not call me. Do not text me. Do not email me. Do not contact me privately. If you need to contact me via work, do so through the appropriate channels." She was sullen and snotty and replied, "Whatever. Why are you doing this. We've been over this, I already talked to [Your Boss]."
And yet? THE NEXT DAY she sent him a text. And he didn't tell me. A few days later, she called him. AND HE DID NOT TELL ME. Later that month she texted, the next month on our anniversary she texted - and NONE of those times did he ever tell me. When I discovered it after our anniversary, his excuse was: I forgot.
WTF? Forgot?
It bothers me that he can't seem to say no. It bothers me that he does not understand how tiny little border crossings while "just friends" can turn so disastrous.
We spoke yesterday, though. L.'s comments encouraged me to talk openly to H, even though I knew it would be hard. I asked him if we could go through and delete his texts together. Even though I could tell he was unhappy about it, he did say he was happy I came to him rather than going behind his back and looking.
I should have at that point admitted that I had already gone behind his back... that part of the reason I wanted to read his texts is because I was upset... but - instead I just noted: Lesson Learned. Direct request and open curiosity better than sneaking behind his back as it feels less of an accusation and more of an admission of fear and anxiety on my part. Makes sense.
We went through the first boring conversations together. When we came to his co-worker's he stiffened. "Oh God," he said. I stiffened. "I already know we're going to find a landmine here. This woman just does not know how to handle herself." Already, he was admitting that he knew (whether he realized it or not) that she crossed boundaries. We went through the messages. We discussed how they made me feel and why. Then things got tense and muddled. And frustrating. And scary, because we each were so scared the other would blow at any minute.
But we didn't.
(whew)
I am really bad about letting things go. We were bickering over miniscule points. "You said OF not IF" "That was a Tuesday not a Thursday..." Crap that did NOT really matter to the conversation. Usually, I hold tenaciously to my point, especially when I feel right. Instead, each time I would ask for him to be patient a moment, I would take six big breaths, then I would decide:
1. This point is important. I need to rephrase it in a polite, non confrontational, non accusatory way that he can understand. I need to make it more simple or I need to explain it in more detail, but either way I need to get the point across.
2. This point is not important. I need to let it go, even if I feel I am "right" because even if I can get him to change his mind on this point, it is not going to change the outcome of the conversation. I need to refocus and drag the conversation back to the subject I actually do want to address.
It was hard. It made the conversation slow going. However, the outcome was much better.
I realized that I needed two things from him. One, he was already starting to give by NOT deleting (and in my mind, thus "hiding") text messages. He also was willingly sharing and going through them WITH me so I could immediately ask questions and get answers without stewing in my own heated juices.
The second thing is more complex and goes to my earlier explanation of how he handled things with the OW. I need to know he can establish boundaries when the chips are down. I absolutely have to know that he can - and will - say "NO." Not maybe. Not "Oh I'm busy, maybe another time," but NO.
Having the texts on hand that I found offensive made it easy to give specific examples. We could talk about what we each thought was appropriate and what we each thought was crossing the line. I explained it in terms of different levels.
First level of boundary crossing might cause, let's say, an eyebrow quirk reaction. Sort of like someone farting really loudly in public. You think - eh... people are human - whatever. This co-worker saying "Aw, c'mon, you know I love ya" was an eyebrow quirk type thing since I don't know their rapport and since it is a phrase people often throw out willy nilly as a force of habit.
Level 2 would be, I dunno, less subtle. Her saying, "I'm lonely," for example. It seems inappropriate. She would not say that to him if I were standing next to him holding his hand. It's not outright saying something completely out of line, but it's edging that line.
Level 3 might be an actual invitation. "Come over to my place after work," or "Hey, we should go out to dinner sometime just the two of us." Is that wrong in and of itself? Don't friends invite each other out to do things? Seems innocent enough. But this is where my alarms go off big time and I say "NONONO! SAY NO!" This is not where his alarm bells go off, though. This is where we had the hardest time hashing things out. In my mind, this level also includes discussing relationship hardships, sexual dysfunction or dissatisfaction, etc.
Level 4 is where we both agreed something needed to be done. The level would be forceful invitations, pressing invitations or conversations after being turned down, sexual innuendos, conversations that were sexual in nature without outright offers (I'm thinking things like, "I love it when my partner does ___ or I love to do ___"), etc.
Level 5 is outright physical cheating. Kissing, touching, groping, any type of sex, whatever. He sees this as cheating because it's physical, but I see stage 4 as cheating, too, which is why *I* feel like something should be done at stage 3.
We came to a mutual agreement. We both realize that the framework in which I feel comfortable having him operate is MUCH smaller than it used to be. He had an almost wide open framework before with complete trust. Now? No - but I also realize the environment I am asking is impossibly stifling for any long term.
So we talked about what he would do at Stage 3 type scenarios. He agreed that any invitations for doing something one-on-one with another female would be reported to me BEFORE he accepted and even IF he turned it down. No matter how innocent, he will tell me. Duh? You'd think that'd be obvious, but he was taken back initially. "But why if I say no?" Ugh. I also asked him to consider conversations he's having with other women, in person, in text, whatever, and put it to a sort of litmus test.
"If I were standing in front of you holding your hand," I explained, "Would she say the things she's saying - and would you in turn say the things you are saying?" If the answer is no, then I insisted he treated it like a "Stage 4", even if he otherwise would have felt it was a Stage 3.
We had a frustrating few rounds about why he wouldn't say something like, "Oh you're having a party on Friday? Cool if I bring my wife?" I think his reasoning is - he doesn't want to go anyway and saying "Cool if I bring my wife?" makes him feel obligated for us to go, but *I* feel like that throws up a wall saying, "Hello there, I'm committed to my darling wife, just so you know," and gives him the opportunity to gauge the response. "Oh. Uh. Yeah, no, it's really just for co-workers..." would be a sure fire sign that intentions are less than pure. "YES! That would be totally awesome!" would give him the green light if he did want to go and even if he didn't, he could say, "Cool, I'll talk to my wife and see if it fits our schedule," and we could make polite excuses not to go if he didn't want to.
He didn't get it. "I don't want to throw you under the bus like that." I didn't see it that way. We couldn't get on the same page with that one, and it's one I had to let go. If it is something I feel is still important to me, I will address it another time.
The biggest thing I wanted to address was him saying NO when NO was appropriate. Not maybe. NO. He said his plan in Stage 4 (or "his" stage 3 after the litmus test I asked him to give it) was to say, "What are you getting at? Why are you saying that/acting this way/inviting me to do that?" Basically, outright calling the woman out on her actions and forcing her to clarify. If there's even the slight bit of hesitation or reason to believe deception or ill intent, he said he would outright say, "You know, I'm doing my damnedest to work on my marriage. This is the sort of thing that would sabotage it." Followed by, "I need you to stop (talking about that/asking me over/etc.)"
He really had been thinking about how he was "throwing up walls" to stop other women from approaching him, but after I pointed out some flaws in his walls, ("Some women like the mystery of a guy who doesn't reveal too much - they see it as a challenge," etc.) and after we discussed the whole litmus test thing, he was very much on board. He also understood that I was concerned because I didn't see a clear plan on his part to deal with situations if they came up again. He had anticipated on doing the same thing he had done with the OW - just blowing her off. "And how did that work for you before?" I asked.
That's all it took to convince him he needed something much more aggressive in case he ever had to deal with another woman like her again.
I feel so much better. I feel so much safer - and not just because of the specifics we spoke about but because we were able to talk about the HARD stuff and get through it without a major blow up. And, well, I really DO like talking to him. I enjoyed the little breaks where we made light of things and laughed. I enjoyed the way he kissed the back of my hand reassuringly as we deleted old texts together. I enjoyed being physically close to him and finding comfort in his warmth and strength as we hashed through discussions that were very difficult for us both.
I really do love him. I'm so glad for yesterday.
It was another texting fiasco. I had been on his phone checking things out when I saw some disturbing texts. Nothing over the top disturbing. I was grateful after our discussion on Monday that he had not deleted anything, but annoyed that one of his co-workers was saying things like, "Talk to me, I'm lonely!" via text and when he did not engage with her (he wasn't rude, but he did blow her off to some extent) she wrote, "U R NO FUN TODAY!"
My hackles rose, as they are wont to do, and I wondered, "Is he usually "fun"? And if so, what does that mean?"
Shortly after that was her saying, "Aw, c'mon, you know I love ya!" as well as some other weirdness, like calling him "Sparkie" (WTF?)
I compared his texts to mine. My male friend had commented on The Spoon Theory that I had posted about, in regards to having FMS with, "You can have some of my spoons," - which, if one didn't know what it was about probably sounds weird at best and maybe, I guess if you really stretched, sort of sexual? I had thanked him and told him... guess what? "You're the best. Love you a billion." To which he had replied, "Love you a billion and one."
I know that "I love you" was meant in a purely platonic way - one friend with a chronic illness supporting another friend with a chronic illness, but that said, taken out of context, why would some random dude be telling me "I love you" and why should I be getting my panties in a knot over my husband's co-worker saying "I love ya" when I don't know the context?
Still. Her messages felt like they were crossing lines. Still. I knew I was being overboard with my paranoia.
I spoke to my friend L. L is very wise, indeed. We discussed the situation thoroughly and she finally said, "Allora, what do you need from him? What can he do to prove his trust?" See, because that's what this boils down to, right? Trust? I don't trust him so every little thing makes me jump.
I scrunched up my face in the way I do. I knotted my brow. I thought. Seriously thought. Instead of thinking what about the texting upsets me, I thought, "What can H do differently? What would ease my mind?"
Part of the affair that bugged me the most is that he supposedly tried to end things but she wouldn't take no for an answer. I've seen at least small email exchanges, one just days before DDay - and guess what? He didn't say NO to her. He kept saying maybe. She would beg him to come over, beg him to let her make dinner. She would beg him to lie to his work and take the night off. His response? "I don't think I can get that night off." "I have a lot of paperwork I need to do." He did NOT say, "No. I am not coming over. Please stop asking me." He did NOT say, "Stop it. I've already told you we are done."
The day after Dday, I demanded to tell his boss at work and ask that he not work with the OW. I was told by his boss, "Oh, I know OW. I'll talk to her and tell her to back off." That was not good enough for me. I wanted H to tell her emphatically NO MORE. But how do you trust those words when, as a betrayed spouse, you are essentially coercing those words? He did as I asked. He called her on speaker phone and allowed me to listen as he told her, "Do not call me. Do not text me. Do not email me. Do not contact me privately. If you need to contact me via work, do so through the appropriate channels." She was sullen and snotty and replied, "Whatever. Why are you doing this. We've been over this, I already talked to [Your Boss]."
And yet? THE NEXT DAY she sent him a text. And he didn't tell me. A few days later, she called him. AND HE DID NOT TELL ME. Later that month she texted, the next month on our anniversary she texted - and NONE of those times did he ever tell me. When I discovered it after our anniversary, his excuse was: I forgot.
WTF? Forgot?
It bothers me that he can't seem to say no. It bothers me that he does not understand how tiny little border crossings while "just friends" can turn so disastrous.
We spoke yesterday, though. L.'s comments encouraged me to talk openly to H, even though I knew it would be hard. I asked him if we could go through and delete his texts together. Even though I could tell he was unhappy about it, he did say he was happy I came to him rather than going behind his back and looking.
I should have at that point admitted that I had already gone behind his back... that part of the reason I wanted to read his texts is because I was upset... but - instead I just noted: Lesson Learned. Direct request and open curiosity better than sneaking behind his back as it feels less of an accusation and more of an admission of fear and anxiety on my part. Makes sense.
We went through the first boring conversations together. When we came to his co-worker's he stiffened. "Oh God," he said. I stiffened. "I already know we're going to find a landmine here. This woman just does not know how to handle herself." Already, he was admitting that he knew (whether he realized it or not) that she crossed boundaries. We went through the messages. We discussed how they made me feel and why. Then things got tense and muddled. And frustrating. And scary, because we each were so scared the other would blow at any minute.
But we didn't.
(whew)
I am really bad about letting things go. We were bickering over miniscule points. "You said OF not IF" "That was a Tuesday not a Thursday..." Crap that did NOT really matter to the conversation. Usually, I hold tenaciously to my point, especially when I feel right. Instead, each time I would ask for him to be patient a moment, I would take six big breaths, then I would decide:
1. This point is important. I need to rephrase it in a polite, non confrontational, non accusatory way that he can understand. I need to make it more simple or I need to explain it in more detail, but either way I need to get the point across.
2. This point is not important. I need to let it go, even if I feel I am "right" because even if I can get him to change his mind on this point, it is not going to change the outcome of the conversation. I need to refocus and drag the conversation back to the subject I actually do want to address.
It was hard. It made the conversation slow going. However, the outcome was much better.
I realized that I needed two things from him. One, he was already starting to give by NOT deleting (and in my mind, thus "hiding") text messages. He also was willingly sharing and going through them WITH me so I could immediately ask questions and get answers without stewing in my own heated juices.
The second thing is more complex and goes to my earlier explanation of how he handled things with the OW. I need to know he can establish boundaries when the chips are down. I absolutely have to know that he can - and will - say "NO." Not maybe. Not "Oh I'm busy, maybe another time," but NO.
Having the texts on hand that I found offensive made it easy to give specific examples. We could talk about what we each thought was appropriate and what we each thought was crossing the line. I explained it in terms of different levels.
First level of boundary crossing might cause, let's say, an eyebrow quirk reaction. Sort of like someone farting really loudly in public. You think - eh... people are human - whatever. This co-worker saying "Aw, c'mon, you know I love ya" was an eyebrow quirk type thing since I don't know their rapport and since it is a phrase people often throw out willy nilly as a force of habit.
Level 2 would be, I dunno, less subtle. Her saying, "I'm lonely," for example. It seems inappropriate. She would not say that to him if I were standing next to him holding his hand. It's not outright saying something completely out of line, but it's edging that line.
Level 3 might be an actual invitation. "Come over to my place after work," or "Hey, we should go out to dinner sometime just the two of us." Is that wrong in and of itself? Don't friends invite each other out to do things? Seems innocent enough. But this is where my alarms go off big time and I say "NONONO! SAY NO!" This is not where his alarm bells go off, though. This is where we had the hardest time hashing things out. In my mind, this level also includes discussing relationship hardships, sexual dysfunction or dissatisfaction, etc.
Level 4 is where we both agreed something needed to be done. The level would be forceful invitations, pressing invitations or conversations after being turned down, sexual innuendos, conversations that were sexual in nature without outright offers (I'm thinking things like, "I love it when my partner does ___ or I love to do ___"), etc.
Level 5 is outright physical cheating. Kissing, touching, groping, any type of sex, whatever. He sees this as cheating because it's physical, but I see stage 4 as cheating, too, which is why *I* feel like something should be done at stage 3.
We came to a mutual agreement. We both realize that the framework in which I feel comfortable having him operate is MUCH smaller than it used to be. He had an almost wide open framework before with complete trust. Now? No - but I also realize the environment I am asking is impossibly stifling for any long term.
So we talked about what he would do at Stage 3 type scenarios. He agreed that any invitations for doing something one-on-one with another female would be reported to me BEFORE he accepted and even IF he turned it down. No matter how innocent, he will tell me. Duh? You'd think that'd be obvious, but he was taken back initially. "But why if I say no?" Ugh. I also asked him to consider conversations he's having with other women, in person, in text, whatever, and put it to a sort of litmus test.
"If I were standing in front of you holding your hand," I explained, "Would she say the things she's saying - and would you in turn say the things you are saying?" If the answer is no, then I insisted he treated it like a "Stage 4", even if he otherwise would have felt it was a Stage 3.
We had a frustrating few rounds about why he wouldn't say something like, "Oh you're having a party on Friday? Cool if I bring my wife?" I think his reasoning is - he doesn't want to go anyway and saying "Cool if I bring my wife?" makes him feel obligated for us to go, but *I* feel like that throws up a wall saying, "Hello there, I'm committed to my darling wife, just so you know," and gives him the opportunity to gauge the response. "Oh. Uh. Yeah, no, it's really just for co-workers..." would be a sure fire sign that intentions are less than pure. "YES! That would be totally awesome!" would give him the green light if he did want to go and even if he didn't, he could say, "Cool, I'll talk to my wife and see if it fits our schedule," and we could make polite excuses not to go if he didn't want to.
He didn't get it. "I don't want to throw you under the bus like that." I didn't see it that way. We couldn't get on the same page with that one, and it's one I had to let go. If it is something I feel is still important to me, I will address it another time.
The biggest thing I wanted to address was him saying NO when NO was appropriate. Not maybe. NO. He said his plan in Stage 4 (or "his" stage 3 after the litmus test I asked him to give it) was to say, "What are you getting at? Why are you saying that/acting this way/inviting me to do that?" Basically, outright calling the woman out on her actions and forcing her to clarify. If there's even the slight bit of hesitation or reason to believe deception or ill intent, he said he would outright say, "You know, I'm doing my damnedest to work on my marriage. This is the sort of thing that would sabotage it." Followed by, "I need you to stop (talking about that/asking me over/etc.)"
He really had been thinking about how he was "throwing up walls" to stop other women from approaching him, but after I pointed out some flaws in his walls, ("Some women like the mystery of a guy who doesn't reveal too much - they see it as a challenge," etc.) and after we discussed the whole litmus test thing, he was very much on board. He also understood that I was concerned because I didn't see a clear plan on his part to deal with situations if they came up again. He had anticipated on doing the same thing he had done with the OW - just blowing her off. "And how did that work for you before?" I asked.
That's all it took to convince him he needed something much more aggressive in case he ever had to deal with another woman like her again.
I feel so much better. I feel so much safer - and not just because of the specifics we spoke about but because we were able to talk about the HARD stuff and get through it without a major blow up. And, well, I really DO like talking to him. I enjoyed the little breaks where we made light of things and laughed. I enjoyed the way he kissed the back of my hand reassuringly as we deleted old texts together. I enjoyed being physically close to him and finding comfort in his warmth and strength as we hashed through discussions that were very difficult for us both.
I really do love him. I'm so glad for yesterday.
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