I understand the frustration. I have dated 5 men and all 5 had personality disorders. It is very difficult, especially to someone untrained, to diagnose a personality disorder because you really have to have a lot of examples to compare and contrast with. I have dated cluster Bs and cluster C's. I've also known some cluster A's but those are pretty easy to spot. Cluster B's and C's are trickier and sometimes one can appear as the other.

My first bf, whom I was with for 7 years, I always had him pegged as a narcissist. Then, after just dating a cluster C (whom I sometimes thought was a cluster B because there was a big overlap in behavior but knew he fit all the criteria for cluster C and he was finally diagnosed with cluster C disorders), I realized that the first bf was actually probably a cluster C, not B afterall. I always knew that these 2 guys weren't quite like the other 3 guys I dated (all cluster Bs). But that there was some overlap in behavior, they just weren't as bad.

Anytime you see all the red flags you've mentioned, like him not having a career, things like that, you're looking at some sort of mental illness. There is a certain baseline of shit-togetherness and when that's missing, you know there is something wrong with the person.

I can tell you about my friend, whom I'm 99% sure is Borderline. Then you can compare and contrast from there and maybe that can help you figure it out.

My friend is in her early 30s, never been married, has 2 kids by 2 different men, neither of whom she was married to or in a stable relationship with. She can't hold a job and always gets fired after a few months due to her behavior. She's extremely irresponsible. Her mom is codependent and has taken up the role of enabling my friend. She pays her rent and everything, giving her hundreds to thousands of dollars per month (while lying to her husband and secretly doing all this behind his back). She chases after men who don't want her, she absolutely CANNOT deal with rejection (and this is a big trait for BPD). The last two men she's been involved with both told her from the very beginning that they weren't interested in a relationship. She sees that as her cue to pursue them relentlessly and she bends over backwards, trying to make them like her. These relationships are total disasters. These guys are extremely distant and she gets so excited about the slightest crumb they throw her. Her mission in life is to get and keep them, rather than just finding someone who wants them. She idolizes these men while she's with them and no matter what they do (including physical abuse), she finds a way to minimize, excuse, and deny how bad it is. She'll do anything to manipulate them into staying, including getting pregnant by lying about birth control, hoping a baby would keep them. She has outbursts and causes scenes in public constantly. She's always screaming at her children in front of everyone, to the point where everyone turns and stares at her, in astonishment. This is every single time she's out. She's totally oblivious to how out of line her behavior is or to the fact that everyone is staring. She's been seen publicly physically abusing her baby, physically abusing her dog and other people's dogs (which is how she lost one job at a doggy daycare), and she's been arrested for hitting her ex in the face with a shovel. She doesn't take responsibility for anything. She's also been arrested in the past for other things like shoplifting (which she still does). She's neglected animals to the point where they've died. At one point, she adopted a puppy and then kept it in a cage so small that it couldn't stand up, had no bedding or flooring in the cage, just the wire of the cage itself. She'd leave this puppy (and her adult dogs) in cages all day to the point where they'd be sitting in their own urine and feces because she didn't let them out. The puppy ended up with severe psychological issues from the severe abuse/neglect. She couldn't believe how bad the puppy ended up and couldn't connect her maltreatment to its behavior problems. She has issues with self care, her house is usually a mess, and her van is full of trash to the point where she cannot take a passenger because there is trash on all the seats and floor, piled up feet high. She's had CPS called on her multiple times. Been evicted and threatened with eviction multiple times. Doesn't shower daily. She puts these men that she dates on a pedestal and neglects her own children in favor of these men who don't want her. She obsesses over them and plans her entire life with them, despite the fact that they repeatedly tell her they're not interested. Once it finally gets to the point where it's over, after years of this chaos, she devalues and hates them. But during the idealization stage, when she's dating them, you cannot point out any of their wrongdoing. She thinks they're the greatest people on earth. She is diagnosed with ADHD, which is highly comorbid with BPD, so it fits. I think she paints a very clear picture of BPD. The only common BPD trait that she either doesn't have or just doesn't mention, is being suicidal. I've seen no indication of self mutilation (cutting) and no mention of her ever wanting to kill herself. But other than that, she presents with more than enough criteria for diagnosis.

Hope that helps.

But what I've found is that unless these people really really want to change and are really working on themselves, there's no hope for a relationship with a PD'ed person. Regardless of which PD it is.

Also should mention she's extremely manipulative. She manipulates everyone around her into doing everything for her and paying for everything for her.

Thank you for your reply! I really needed to process it and get another opinion on that, as I get to feel guilty sometimes for leaving.

From what you wrote, the first one could have also been a Borderline. He was chasing me for a long time, even though I said "no" multiple times, and yeah, of course, the relationship was a total disaster. He was more functional though and ambitious (at that time at least, not sure what he is like now). He was a successful history student and even went on a pHD. But, he was much, MUCH worse than this one, VERY controlling and manipulative, at one point lied about having cancer (this is still shocking to me). I feel like the recent one is a milder version of the previous one, much more easy going, but lazy and (self)-destructive. I didn´t really notice much controlling behaviour, more childish behaviour. But he did have the anger outbursts in public. The previous one never did that. Both of them were very difficult personalities.

I know I was probably naive, I thought he had shitty childhood, maybe if I support him he will get back on track. But I was wrong obviously, because he would just fight me, with the excuse that it´s because he wasn´t ready for the relationship, which I don´t believe really. He could have stayed away from me if he wasn´t ready.

The lying about cancer is a big psychopath red flag, as well as lying about being a military war veteran. Those are both extremely common psychopath lies. I think you're analysis is correct. A psychopath could be seen as a worse example of a BPD. BPD is a more mild form of a psychopath. The thing I have noticed about my BPD friend is that when she does realize that she's hurt someone, she CAN feel guilty. She CAN have empathy. Unlike the psychopath. I think she uses denial a lot to avoid those feelings of guilt. I don't believe I've ever met anyone in my life who lives in a more severe case of denial than her.

The commitment phobia, afraid to commit to a relationship, can be a sign of really ALL personality disorders. My recent one had that and he turned out to have 2 cluster C personality disorders and aspergers (commonly comorbid). So that alone doesn't indicate a particular disorder. My recent one was also very sensitive and emotional and cried often at movies. For awhile I thought he was BPD until I did more research. But once I understood cluster C disorders, there was no question that that's what he had. And then I read about aspergers and knew that fit him as well. Now he's been diagnosed with everything I said he had and he's working on himself and in therapy. Sounds like your guy also knows there is something he has, which is good. But he'd need to be willing to admit to it and be open with you about it which it sounds like he isn't.

I think there is a good prognosis for those with cluster C disorders IF they are really working on themselves and in therapy. But cluster B's, I'd stay the hell away from. They're just sooo extreme.

Yeah, I read that borderlines also lie about illnesses, but I´m not sure if that´s a borderline hallmark. And, yeah, it´s diffucult to diagnose. The recent one, did seem like he was sorry, but sometimes he also seemed completely unaware that what he does is wrong or abusive/unhealthy.

My ex is a borderline/psychopath. He lied all the time about almost everything. He never lied about having an illness himself, but he invented that his first ex-wife had a (mystery) illness for 4 years from which she died at 45. He described caring for her--completely bedridden and often hospitalized--all by himself, while also caring for the children and working full-time. He moaned that none of her large family helped him care for her or the children. He related piteously how even the children (11 and 15) abandoned him, in his lonely hell, never visited their mother in the hospital, and mostly stayed with friends.

About a year into the relationship, I began to doubt his story. I looked up his wife's obit online and learned she had worked full-time in a supervisory position for a social service agency up until the day she died. 3 years later, while living in his house and trying to set up a filing system for his mess of papers, I discovered a hand-written letter from his then 12-year-old daughter demanding to know why her mother had suddenly died while she was spending the night with a friend. It seemed obvious she'd had no idea her mother was ill. A few years later, his son asked to see his mother's hospital records, concerned about his own health issues, and lo and behold, there were none.

He also lied about his mother who died (also mysteriously) at 55. He took me to see her grave in his hometown once, saying he'd been there 5 or 6 times. We looked and looked for the "marker" which he said he would recognize. When we finally found it, there was no marker. He claimed not to know why his mother had died, then offered lamely that she'd had "thyroid disease." I was 59 and had had thyroid disease 20 years by that time. It was so weird.

Especially, since, during our first year, he'd moaned often about how he just wanted to die and go be with his wife and mother. Then it turned out, he lied about how both died, and didn't have a clue what his mother had died of, had never visited her grave. Oh, and he had his wife of 24 years cremated the day of her death, took the ashes to her parents' house, and didn't attend the memorial they held.

At the very least, his alleged suffering, loss, pain, and continuing grieving was all a charade.

He had such intense mood swings that he kept me up all night, several nights a week, throughout our 5 years. Early on, he had fits in public, but, increasingly (later), humiliated me horribly, trying to get me to make a scene (psychopathic behavior). He acted like small child being left by his mother every time I'd had it with him and walked out the door. He laid on the floor with his arms wrapped around my feet. He sobbed. He begged. Abandonment is huge with borderlines.

Borderlines are very emotional and psychopaths are not. It's REALLY nuts when a person is both. As AgentSmith pointed out, a person can be several PD's. I think the borderline psychopath might be the most crazy-making creature of all.

My ex (the first one) also had sob stories. He was bullied in school, his grandfather died on his hands, he had some kind of stomach disease that made him have stomachaches all the time and it was incurable, according to him. The only way to cure it is to undergo an operation for which he had 1% chances of surviving. - Bullshit! That was a complete lie and a way to get attention and manipulate me.

When I wanted to break up with me he made such a drama! The next day he implied he would kill himself (he didn´t say it directly, but implied) which made me give up on the break up and stay, but about a half a year after that, he dumped me coldheartedly and then later tried to additionally hurt me by waving his "happy" life in my face. He also tried to make a scene in public once, but failed thankfully, by inviting me and his other ex on an event and then ignoring us both. I guess he expected us to get in a fight for him or something. We were both smarter then that and left.

Yeah, I mean, he also seemed emotional and sensitive, but I´m not sure if that was real or fake. Both of them talked about love, the first one (psychopathic one) even more. He was all about unconditional love. He was also sensitive to criticism.

Sunny, Sounds like a borderline/psychopath (borderpath) to me. I also got the suicide threats. Last time I left him, he sent me a photo of himself with a plastic bag secured over his head. I see both psychopathic and borderline behaviors in yours. Setting you up to make a scene in public is definitely a psychopathic maneuver. Mine did this to me literally hundreds of times. So is the cold-hearted dumping and waving his happy life in your face. The drama over abandonment and suicide threats are borderline, as I understand it.

But, what really happened to your Ps ex wife and mother?

LOL @ the plastic bag pic Kris. I got a similar reaction from my first psychopath. He went out and bought a gun (as a felon and registered sex offender, 1st deg felony in itself) and posted pics of the gun and pics of him holding the gun to his head on Myspace (the days before facebook), which suicidal writing all around the border of the pic. He also had literally a shrine of pics of me on his myspace page. The entire background was wallpaper of pics of me, he had a slideshow of pics of me and my dog, a pic of him in sunglasses with a superimposed pic of me on the sunglasses so that it looked like he was looking at me. This was well after I left him. He was so completely obsessed. He mirrored my life as much as possible. Bought a jetski because I had one, attempted to join my jetski meetup group, then created his own jetski club after I kicked him out. Went to work at the small 2-man company I had just left, sat in my office, at my desk, on my previous computer. He purchased 2 cars to match the make and model of the two cars I owned at the time. And on and on...

Sunny, I don't know. It troubled me alot.

AgentSmith, I just saw this post of yours. Lololololol. And they don't think they are making themselves look ridiculous?

Everyone, I am reading your posts and am confused even more than ever. I just realized on March 14th that my ex and my son (his son), are psychopaths who have basically destroyed my life. I suffered with them for 31 years but had no idea whatsoever that this was actually a mental disease. His traits would shock anyone as he is highly intelligent. In his childhood, he was always chosen for the GATE program (gifted and talented). My son is 35, married with one baby 2 years old. I filled out percentages regarding his levels using that 21 point checklist, of which many of his traits for psychopath were up to 500%, yes 500%. But my son holds a great job, earning over $100,000. He has a bachelors degree, his wife a masters. She also has a great job. I know his income must be true because they bought a house for $800K. I saw the sales price on the internet. Because I would never take his word for anything to be true, so I check things on him. But his cruelty of me for no reason whatsoever is unbelievable. Besides he wasn't born this way, he was a lovely child, with emotions and love. He changed at age 15. His father I think was born that way, but he changed his personality also, at around age 31. I am wondering who are these two, psychopaths? Or something else. My son has destroyed me in every way possible, he has broken my heart. His early days at college, he was selling marijuana from his college dorm room, dyed his hair orange, and was a mess. He was high on drugs, was kicked out of SF State, was charged with felony, I bailed him out and hired a lawyer, who was able to reduce it to misdemeanor, and he got away by attending drug school. He did the drug school in San Diego and kept me away, so I have no idea what he did, how it got over doing drugs, for which I am eternally grateful. But he could not hide his psychopath behavior from me. He is now hiding his wife from me, he hides everything from me, because maybe he knows I know him too well. Ever since those days, he started this very strong hate towards me. He completely isolated me and after that I have no way of knowing about him, he did everything in such a manipulative and cunning way, that I could not find out anything from his friends.
I was okay with him gone, married and living with this most lovely woman, a smart and educated person, who has done wonders on him by making him get his bachelors degree. They both do art together. I felt the were happy. Then they had a baby. He has not let me near the baby for the last 2 years, my first grandchild. I can see that his psycho behavior is still very much continuing. If he has absolutely zero empathy for me, his mother, how can he possibly have empathy for his child or his wife. I am devastated to realize that he must be hurting her, the same position in which I was in, with his father many years back. My son and his father, I think they have a genetic situation. I have no idea how I will tacke this, but I want this lovely woman to be saved, he will ruin her, break her. he has no conscience. But he sure is a high income earning office executive. However, he tries to protect his friends, and is very popular among them. I am not sure what they must be thinking of him, and not sure how to find out.
I am sorry for my long post here. But I am really suffering these past 5 days, the biggest shock of my life, I never thought I would be facing something so horrible. My own child is a psychopath, which means I am forever ruined. There is no cure, and I can't stop my loving motherly feelings. I will be crying the rest of my life. I am so ruined, so devastated, there seems to be no hope today. Please help me, please......... I loved my child, I gave him everything, I would have died for him, he is my child. I am 58, and have spent at least 31 years with these two monsters. What can I do? Please help me figure out what are these two, borderline? Psycho? or Socio? How do I find out? Can the court force them to take brain scans? Under what circumstances?

Iwant,

No, you cannot force the court to have your son examined for a diagnosis of what personality disorder he has. I doubt you could do this even if was facing criminal charges in a court. I believe you would have to be the victim of the crime to even (possibly) submit such evidence. There was a man on this forum several years ago who was facing a divorce with a psychopathic wife. I believe a child was involved. He was able to find several forensic psychiatrists in California who are able to make a diagnosis of psychopathy without seeing the patient. He planned to hire one and use the information in the divorce court. This does not involve an MRI screening. It involves evaluating evidence of behaviors by interviewing the victims, and documents such as arrest records, etc. I believe this evidence is considered legitimate in court, but there would have to be a court case involving your son in order to submit it in a court (if the judge decided to allow it). He has not broken any law (recently) for which he can be charged with a crime.

There is something called "grandparent's right." I believe you can fight for these rights in court, which--if you won--would allow you visitation, etc. I am not sure if it would work in your favor to suggest your son is a psychopath in court. Psychopaths manage very successfully to manipulate court systems, and he could counter that you are crazy for suggesting this about him. He could say that he needs to protect his child from you poisoning her mind against her father. Maybe others here would have better advice on this.

I am so sorry you are going through this. It is totally heart-breaking. There is a forum on this site (DS) for parents who are estranged from their adult children--not sure of the name.

If he is a psychopath, he will have exhibited sadistic behaviors towards you or others--for example, showing pleasure at your pain. Did you say he laughed when you cried? That would be an indication. A sociopath is the same thing without the sadism.

"Parents of Estranged Adult Children Everywhere". A very supportive and understanding group of parents aiding each other in survival of estrangement.

{{hugz}}

PS~ hopefully, your son is the sort who takes much pride in his wife and children, and saves his hatred for those whom he regards as "useless". It's kind of their MO, from what i've read and experienced first hand.
Sorry you're going through this. Sorry any are. {{hugz}}