I don't have children so maybe I won't be much help. You didn't mention how old the teen is, but if he is still a minor and you have authority over him I would get him into as much therapy as possible. Some kind of empathy-based training therapy or something. This is a relatively new concept so it might be hard to find someone who can offer this. But there have been a lot of articles about it lately. The point is, he's still a teen and brains aren't fully developed until mid-20s. So there is a chance to help him. It might be a long shot but it's worth a try. Also, a support group for teens maybe, where he learns how to appropriately socialize with others, in a caring way. You have to be careful with sociopaths (if he is one), because therapy/support groups forced upon them can actually make them even more manipulative as they learn new skills and can better hide their psychopathy. That was the problem with the last psychopath I was victimized by. He was in a court mandated rehab program, learning how to speak like a very mentally healthy, empathetic person when he wasn't.

Hi Unsinkable,

Agent Smith has some great suggestions.

I am curious if you have always noticed personality issues in your son or is it something that you have begun to notice more recently? What issues do you identify that make you believe he is possibly following in dad's footsteps and when did these issues begin, in your opinion?

Thanks to both of you for your replies.

My son is 14 and is just about to enter High School. I have had him seeing different counselors (school, pastor) over the years, but the country I live in has very limited possibilities for therapy. If I could find a good therapist, that would be something I would do. I am always looking.

Regarding his history, I have always noticed that he is different in his behavior, exceptional. Some of it could seem positive, even. For example, he has NEVER had a lack of confidence. When he was 3 or 4, I could have handed him money and asked him to go to the store and buy milk and bread, and he would have done it without hesitation. And probably without any problem. He's never had a sense that he is a child and not yet ready for certain things. He always believes himself capable of everything.

And that could be fine, if it were not for the interpersonal things. The lack of empathy is the most worrisome one. Interestingly, as with his father, he feels and shows empathy for people whose lives do not in any way affect his. For example, tragedies in other parts of the world, or a school visit to a school for the blind, etc. He's very touched by those things and talks about them for a long time. I have tried to figure out why - maybe because he is in no competition with those people? Their fates in no way influence him getting what he wants? He shows *almost* no empathy for anyone in the family. I say almost because a few times there have been faint glimmers of genuine caring about someone's feelings. Generally, however, even in a situation where he clearly has been the instigator and hurter, his focus is all on absolving himself by blaming others, and no how he is the victim. Again, I know this is a common strategy for kids, adolescents, and even adults, but there is something different about the way he does it. He truly, genuinely believes that he is the only person who is ever wronged. It's not a ploy, there is no trace of guilt in him. He deeply, firmly believes that he is always right.

I could give lots of examples of his lying, stealing, disrespect of others, going back on his word, etc., but it's probably not necessary. My trust in him is usually zero. But he doesn't care whether he destroys my trust, our relationship, or not. He just cares about saying the right words to me so he can get what he wants.

He also doesn't seem to learn, probably because he just doesn't care. One thing I have tried to teach him (touches on empathy, caring about others, of course) is to notice people around him and treat them as if they are *there*, not ignore them. This has been modeled for him since forever, and somehow his older and younger siblings both get it. To cite a specific instance, recently the kids were all entering a building with a lot of stuff in their hands, and DS1 went first, and without a glance backwards to the others, allowed the door to nearly slam in DD's face. She just barely caught it and said something about it, to which DS1 replied that he had done her a favor by opening the door "for her". Then he did the same thing at the next door, after just talking about it. She got mad, and he just didn't get it. I also had a long talk with him about how you treat others in a group when you are part of that group, but he simply doesn't understand what the problem is. I later pointed out to him times when he was the recipient of the behavior I expect of him..."see, now I looked back and saw you there, and now I am holding the door and waiting for you. See how that works? Don't you like it when I notice you are there, rather than just looking forward and slamming the door in your face?" But he never gets it. He just doesn't care.

However, all this is different with different groups of people. If he were with his church youth group, or with people we've just met or rarely see, for example, he would instinctively behave differently - considerately, unselfishly. He does not need to be the center of attention. Like he's set to a different channel. Just like Dad.

So when did it begin? I think he's always been that way, but there are so many alternate explanations for the behavior when a child is young. As a mother, though, I can tell you that I can see empathy in a child's eyes before they can even crawl, so it was apparent to me from very early on.

Two other things I should mention. I have no experience parenting but I do read a LOT of psychology.

1. Teens tend to be narcissistic as part of normal development. And also lying and manipulation is not uncommon either.

2. Aspergers / Autism can also account for what appears to be a lack of empathy and not understanding social norms, what's acceptable behavior, what's not, etc. I would seriously look into that one. Someone with Aspergers / High Functioning Autism would appear very bright and relatively normal except for socially. They say things without thinking about how it will hurt others and often cause pain to others without realizing it or understanding why. They have a really hard time putting themselves in other people's shoes (empathizing). They are usually very honest, but not always. They tend to be very much in their own heads, and not think about anyone around them. They don't intentionally hurt others, like a sociopath, and they do feel bad when they realize they have. But they simply don't understand how their behavior effects others and why other people get emotional about certain things. They have a very difficult time understanding emotions. To the layman, aspergers and APD can appear very similar, unless you know what to look for.

At 14, I think he's at a good age to start therapy and grasp these concepts. Hopefully you can still turn him around. Sounds like you're trying to do all the right things.

Hi Smith, thanks for your reply!

Yes, I understand that teenage narcissism in common. This, though, is different. It's hard for me to articulate how it is different, but I think the utter, complete lack of guilt, remorse, feeling responsible, shame....I think that's what sets this apart. My other kids have tried lying, too, but they feel guilt about it, and then later, they feel the need to repair the relationship somehow, knowing that their choices damaged it. With him, none of that is present. There is never any resolution.

I'm very familiar with Autism Spectrum disorders, as I have worked in education for many years. I am confident that this is not something of that nature.

I would love for him to start therapy, but this country is very behind in that sort of thing. Beyond school and pastoral counselors, there's not much available.

What I'm looking for is ideas for how *I* can do things best. Shutting him out of my life to save myself hurt is not a good option, though I could tell him to go live with Dad. I do not want to continue to waste time and energy on trying to teach him the way I have taught my other children, because it is not working and my exasperation and hurt may actually be antagonizing him. I need to know strategies that might help, that I can use. I just don't know what they might be.

You're in a very difficult situation. I can really relate as I have a 16 yr old son
that has similar traits. I just have one, so it's easier for me to concentrate all
my efforts on helping him change.

It's a tough situation, because as AgentSmith says teens are naturally narcissistic
and rebellious. Plus, boys often naturally pull away from their moms at this age.
I have found a few things to be very helpful in influencing him to see a different
point of view:

1. One of the best things for him is a friend's dad who has included my son in
their family outings/camping trips. I have dropped several planned family
trips in favor of my son spending time with this positive male role model which
has really helped him see a pro social way to be a man.

2. I bought the Total Transformation program (used) and found a lot of useful ideas
in there. One of the best lines was: "Don't talk to me like that, I don't like it!" and
then disengage and walk away. The program has been ragged on for being a hard
sell online, but having bought it used I avoided that. The guy who put it together was
a LMSW who worked with at risk teens and was a juvenile delinquent once himself,
He knew the tricks and BS some teens will get up to and formed good responses
to it.

3. I decided to adopt pets, which can be dicey with kids with APD tendencies, but
with close supervision, they can be very helpful to draw a child out of their narcissism
and give and receive love. I did have some problems with him teasing them (not
terrible, but still not cool) so I got a youngish tom cat who when neutered still retained
a lot of his aggressiveness. If my son tried to tease him at all, he received swift
retribution lol.

4. Lots and lots of exercise works wonders as well, sports teams/ and or equipment
is really key for my son to channel all that testosterone. I looked for teams that had
a positive minded male coach at the helm. Again not to harp too much on the male
role model thing, but if your son is seeking a male image to model himself after why
not find a positive one for him to emulate?

5. I don't let him get away with anything. If he breaks something he fixes it. Even if it takes
forever. I pull privileges until it's done. This has lead to some fairly ugly confrontations, but
he now accepts this and the drama has simmered down considerably. He once slammed
a door so hard the frame broke. I made him fix the whole himself, replace the wood ,plane
the door, replace the hinges, etc, by hand with only my minimal instruction. Did the same
with a little table he broke. He hasn't broken anything since. Too much work.

6. Volunteer work and charity. He doesn't always do it willingly, but he does feel good about
his contribution when it's done. Kids that emulate the seemingly more powerful anti-social
parent have a strong need for power (an intrinsic trait that doesn't have to end up as
pathological) so I'm always looking for ways for him to experience his own agency and
personal power in a positive framework, as well as for him to feel good about being part
of the community instead of feeling like his own little island.

7. Art, music, writing, photography, theater, anything creative that can aid personal expression.
You have to be careful with this to put his efforts in context with the bigger picture e.g. praising
his work while also praising the efforts of others, otherwise it can end up as an exercise in
narcissism. Again, the issue is of mastery and agency (read: power) while also showing him
he's not the special snowflake he'd like think he is.

It's a balancing act, when I can be I'm very nurturing to him, but if I sense he's taking advantage
of me or lying, I morph into my no nonsense mode. He is really changing though, It's an
insane amount of work, and work mostly I don't think I'd have to be doing without the exposure
he suffered as a child to his Pfather's insanity. Which of course if I think about it too much
drives me crazy.

I personally don't believe that psychopathy is genetic. I think that kids can become overwhelmed
easily by watching their parents display psychopathic or narcissistic traits. They're like little
sponges for a great deal of their childhood. Influence is everything, even if it's in small
amounts. Boys have a tendency to identify with their fathers more than their mothers, and
boys with strong leadership tendencies (not pathological in and of itself) will side with and
emulate the parent who seems to have the most power.

That said, I do think children have genetic traits that put them more at risk for developing
patterns of behavior on the APD spectrum. Strong desire for leadership, high need
for stimulation or novelty, high levels of energy and creativity, in and of themselves are
not bad traits. Artists, business leaders and inventors would all score high for these traits.
But I do think they would put a child at risk for developing narcissistic or psychopathic types
of behaviors when exposed even for relatively short periods of time to the narcissistic or
psychopathic parent.

Like AgentSmith said, kids don't fully develop until their mid 20's, although when they get
older they become harder and harder to influence. It sounds like you're very aware and
on the lookout for situations that can help influence your son. I hope you can find a
good therapist for him as well as some positive male role models. Best of luck to you!!
Parenting is the hardest job of all, no doubt!

Wow, sorry about the formatting issue, I'll try to be more careful. Can never
seem to tell when to hit return.

Hi bettybean, and thanks for your thoughtful reply!

It's good to hear what you wrote, as many of these are things I am already doing, particularly the male role models, volunteer work, exercise, and responsibility for damage. He does all these things, though he skips sports or his volunteer work (that he chose on his own) whenever he feel he has a "good reason", but does it in a sneaky way (disappears, turns off his phone, lies about where he was, etc.). He is quite resistant to the arts other than certain genres of music (which is odd in our family - everyone is involved in some branch of the arts - theater, music, visual arts, something).

I love the idea of a pet and am so sad that I cannot provide one for my kids. We're in a tiny condo and there literally is not even anyplace for a hamster cage (in the divorce my ex got the house, I got this condo, and I can't afford to move to anything bigger unless I move far, far away). All my kids, including DS1, love animals, so it would be great, but I can't offer a good home to an animal now.

I am not familiar with the Total Transformation program - now that you've got it learned, want to sell it to me? :) It sounds like there are some good ideas in there. I have read How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk, and Raising Cain, which both had some great advice (it's been a while, though, maybe I will re-read them).

Any ideas on how to counter-act the influence of the father? He gets a lot of visitation, 10 days a month. He doesn't usually pay much attention to the kids, but he certainly does influence them.

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions!

Hi UnsinkableM, ditto on the disappearing act with the phone. Frustrating!
I've shown up at his friend's house from time to time unannounced when he
won't answer me, which embarrassed him enough to stop that behavior, lol.
But you're right you can't parent these kids like other kids, normal parenting
advice doesn't work as well, because they're not taking in other's viewpoints
as well.

I'd sell or give you my Total Transformation program,but I still refer to it from time
or time. Check out this link to their parenting advice blog and maybe look for a cheap
used copy on Amazon: http://www.empoweringparents.com I've read How to Talk
So Your Kids Will Listen--great book. I'll check out "Raising Cain" I've seen it but
never checked it out.

You might try looking for animal shelters or animal rescue or wildlife rehabilitation
programs for some contact time with animals. The thing I've found about getting
through to my son is that I have to be sneaky about it. Sneaky and matter of fact.
Today we will being doing X, it'll be fun or because we going to do our part in the
community. I had a bad habit of delivering mini sermons which was a baaad habit.
He has to discover for himself.

As for his father's influence, I'd bet he tries the vulcan mind meld with your son. Ie.
think just like me and everything will be fine. I've got my rich in laws to contend
with and the name of the game to me is to be both pro social AND try to out fun
them which is hard as hell to do on a budget.

Camping, fishing or volunteering with parks services repairing trails, etc. Mountain
biking is relatively cheap. I'm looking into kayaks right now coupled with waterproof
walkie talkies iso can go out with him and a friend and still be in touch if need me. That's
going to be more pricey, but right now I feel I have to prove a point.: you can still
have fun AND honor your relationships with others. And yes, Moms can be fun too ; )

Something else to check out depending where you are--Meetup groups geared toward
families or churches with a large youth group that have planned activities. Although
I do have a faith in God, I'm not particularly religious, I've still found that liberal type
churches are pretty accommodating to differing beliefs.

When I visit my ailing father, it's pretty boring for him, so I sign him up for sports lessons.
A couple hours of shared lessons isn't too insanely expensive. Again, I have it a lot
easier because I just have one. But sometimes local area sports clubs will have group
tix for families that are cheap.

It takes a lot of digging around, but there are often inexpensive and freebie things you
can find to amp up the fun quotient. It shouldn't have to be like that but often it
ends up being a shitty competition between parents/in laws. Sometimes you have to
stack the deck in your favor.

Hi Unsinkable,

I think in your case it would be helpful to look at attachment styles/attachment disorders, specifically avoidant attachment style as it sounds like this might be reflective of your son's behaviour. This info below might help understand it. Reactive Attachment Disorder is another one where you may find some helpful parenting strategies however I wouldn't say your son has this because it is pretty extreme behaviour and usually applies more to kids that have undergone severe neglect, abuse etc and often end up in foster homes or treatment centers. But the parenting strategies could still be useful for you.

"Avoidant Attachment Disorder

Primary emotion: The predominant emotion in Avoidant AD (AvAD) children is sadness which is related to a significant sense of emptiness / loneliness. However, the world sees little or none of their sadness or loneliness. AvAD children believe their sadness is infinite, and should they lapse into it, they see no exit. Hence, they go to extraordinary lengths to avoid any expression of it, and usually effectively shield themselves from even recognizing their sadness. Their internal shields work so well that they often truly do not think they are sad. What AvAD children do feel is an anxious edge in quieter moments. They rarely relax, lest their sadness “creep up” on them. Their hypervigilance is aimed at deflecting anything that might activate their sadness. As physical and emotional closeness carries a high potential for triggering their sadness, AvAD children avoid closeness. They can readily perceive adult efforts to promote closeness as malicious. Attitudinally, AvAD children are contemptuous of sadness- they define it as the “stuff of sissies”. A goodly percentage of these children lie somewhere along the spectrum of depressive disorders.
Primary behavior: The predominant behavioral strategy utilized by AvAD children is passive-aggressive behavior. Various behaviors are employed for their nuisance effect in order to pollute the air with tension, which minimizes chances of their sadness being awakened. Tasks are commonly done quite slowly, including ones they may want to do, to generate frustration in others, which again, buffers any sadness. Promises made are usually broken for the same reason. The speech of AvAD children is sprinkled with unintelligible muttering which is yet another passive-aggressive variant to create irritation and block sadness. AvAD children do not engage in incessant chattering, and when they do, that can indicate that their sadness has been stirred.

Physical contact: Given their dislike of physical contact, AvAD children stiffen up when touched. Hugging them is like hugging a board. As touch taps their sadness, AvAD children, when touched, may well: 1) complain of being hurt or hot, 2) say they don’t feel well, 3) insist that the touch is making them itch and they must scratch, 4) flinch, twitch, fidget, or pull away, or 5) engage in some bodily preoccupation, all in an effort to disrupt the physical closeness and distract themselves from any emergent sadness. Attempts to impose physical closeness may be met with direct physical aggression, to recreate some distance. The one context in which AvAD children do allow closeness is when they are sick or injured. They often express somatic complaints and tend to habitually overreact to minor cuts or discomforts. It is as if the somatic distress provides a justification for the closeness that strips the closeness of all emotional meaning, thereby making it acceptable.

Interpersonal world: AvAD children can demonstrate chronic avoidance of contact with others. Though they usually claim to have friends, AvAD children typically don’t take initiative socially, don’t respond to others’ initiative, and may actively or passively push others away. If they have any companions, they tend to be a few years younger. If not left alone enough, they can become openly angry. AvAD children present themselves as omnipotent and without need for others and as a result can come across as quite condescending.

Therapy: Accessing their sadness is the linchpin of successful therapy with AvAD children. Absent this, therapist and parents are left forever trying to manage the many forms of passive aggressive behavior that any AvAD child will present. Behavioral treatment is practically a guaranteed failure. In terms of accessing sadness, physical holding is frequently necessary to create a sufficient intensity to have any therapeutic impact. When the breakthrough comes, AvAD children can feel suicidal for a period of time. It can be useful to remind them that they were alone initially when they experienced their sadness, but there are others present to help them now."


Also, if your son does have sociopathic/narcissistic tendencies another area to look for parenting strategies would be to look at Conduct Disorder as it is one disorder that has shown to be diagnosed in teens who eventually later become diagnosed as sociopaths. I am also unsure if there are studies done connecting teens with Reactive Attachment Disoder and sociopathy but having worked with these kids myself in the past I would say there is a good possibility of a connection. Stratgies for parenting teens of both conduct disorder and Reactive Attachment Disoder are often completely different than strategies for parenting teens that are just "being difficult". In fact the strategies can often be opposite in many cases.

As AgentSmith said, many teens display all kinds of these types of behaviours and eventually mature and outgrow them. But I also trust that you know your child better than anyone and being able to recognize certain patterns of behaviour when he was a young child shows a lot too. Having a sociopathic or narcissistic father can have a huge effect as well. Either way, good luck! I hope this info helps!

Bettybean -
Thanks for all the ideas! I really should try to do more of the outdoorsy type of things you mentioned, but DS1 kinds does those things on his own with his friends, when they hang out (biking/hiking in the woods, etc.) It's funny, and I guess I'm lucky in this respect, but my ex never tried to impress (me or anyone) with fun things, and he's not that way with his kids now He's actually very penny-pinching - buys the cheapest food, the kids have the cheapest mattresses/bedding, etc. I always read this as that he is so utterly uninterested in other people's feelings or even opinions that they are not worth providing a good time to. And also, he expects that whatever *he* finds fun (repairing this or that around the house) must be LOTS OF FUN for everyone else, too. Which is all to say that apparently *I* am the fun, splurging parent, because I take my kids to movies, on vacations, to all kinds of different adventure parks, museums, concerts...which is actually what most parents I know do, just in contrast with him, it seems so *splurgy*.

Yes on the church thing - we are very involved in our church and DS1 is happy and enthusiastic about this - he even has chosen to volunteer with some technical stuff and gets up super early to go there on the bus before the rest of us go. Gosh, sometimes, he can seem - to outsiders - so responsible, grown up, and unselfish (this job isn't something he gets any recognition for). And he *is*, but at the same time, he is something else.

Thanks for the ideas...keep 'em coming!!

Eternity, thank you, too!

I had read a lot about attachment disorders when my marriage broke up, in an effort to come to grips with what is wrong with my ex. One book I still have is "Becoming Attached" by Robert Karen, are you familiar with that? It's a thick book - I may need to re-read it.

Thanks too for all the info an AvAD - a lot of this sounds like my DS, such as the aversion to being touched, while some of it seems not at all like him (sadness emptiness/loneliness). I will have to think about whether this really could be underneath, or not. To me, it seems like he really doesn't feel much of anything, with the exception of agitation -> anger if he's not getting what he wants. Otherwise, he's as happy as a clam in his own little world, untouched by the experiences or feelings of anyone around him. He (like his father) is completely uninterested in making others happy or unhappy - unless it's a step in his agenda.

I'd be interested in hearing more, if you or anyone can tell me, about how attachment disorders relate to Narcissism / Sociopathy. Are they overlapping, or cause-effect, or distinct from each other?

Thanks, you have given me a lot to think about!

Hi Unsinkable,

Attachment relates to all of us. There are different types of attachment and these types are all pervasive in our lives. Secure attachment with our parents leads to successful relationships later in life. Children with a pattern of avoidant attachment tend to be dismissive of caregivers. So if the primary caregiver of a young child leaves the room the child really could care less and goes on doing whatever they were doing. When mom returns they also show no signs of really caring that mom has returned. There is also anxious attachment. This is where mom leave the room (or tries) and the child freaks out, becomes anxious, clingy, etc and when mom returns the child will cling. Securely attached children trust that mom is coming back and are happy when mom returns but not anxious. I can identify that as a child I was anxiously attached. I hated not being by my mom's side in strange or new situations. My brother on the other hand was avoidant and he would barely care either way. As an adult, I tend to be anxious in relationships, and always unknowingly go for the type of guys who use and abuse. My brother is more narcissistic and can be very blunt and hurtful to people close to him, but the rest of the world thinks he's a saint. If I had secure attachment as a child there is a good chance I would seek out others who also had secure attachment in their relationships with their parents. This is where healthy relationships come from. There is also ambivalent attachment which is seen in children who become extremely angry when their parent leaves them. They are physically aggressive, defiant, oppositional etc and display this from a very young age.

So your son sounds to me like he falls in the AvoidantAttachment category which is why I suggested youy may benefit from researching it and perhaps finding resources that teach parenting strategies for AvAD.

I don't know how much info is out there regarding attachment and narcissism/sociopathy. I personally believe there is a huge connection but I'm not sure a lot of studies have been done on it, although I have come across articles that link attachment disorders and narcissism.

This page might help a little: http://www.attachmentdisordermaryland.com/intro.htm

I'm not familair with the book you mentioned. I studied a bit about attachment in University in one of my psych classes and then became reintroduced to it when I worked as a support worker for families with foster children. One of our psychologists believed everything related back to attachment and used that as the basis for her therapy with both foster children and foster parents. She taught different parenting methods depending what type of attachment type the child appeared to be.

I think there could be a lot to it. Unfortunately I don't have that much info on it anymore but I'm sure there is more info to be found online. I also took a course based on a book called "No Such Thing As a BAd Kid". It is primarily focused on strategies for working with troubled children and youth. You may find it useful.

Hi Eternity!

Thank you so much. I'm giving this a lot of thought...it's so tricky. I often read a description of a certain thing, and think, "yep, yep, that's him...oh no, those last few things are the opposite of him". So I keep reading - not so much because I feel the need to label him, but because I want to find the right information for myself to figure out how to approach the problems I experience with him. Because the usual parenting approach -based on the assumption that people have a conscience - doesn't work.
Thanks. :)

Just wanted to say I wish you the very best of luck Unsinkable. This was an amazing
discussion you got started, Eternity your comments about Attachment were really thought
provoking. It does make a lot of sense, that boys especially would try and hide their
sadness. I've often thought that passive aggression could become almost an addiction
because of the little "pop" of energy gotten from the other person's exasperation. Almost
like a strange form of escape from reality.

And yes, absolutely, Unsinkable, regular parenting approaches don't work and can even
exacerbate the problem. Kids who don't have a strong desire to cooperate and care
for other's feelings, quickly figure out how to game whatever system you put in place.
Very very frustrating and so important to keep trying to find another way.