Victims of Psychopaths Community Group
Is he or she a sociopath or psychopath? Think we're only talking about serial killers here? Psychopaths, sociopaths and even narcissists come in every walk of life, every career level, and every socio-economic category.
Sadly, I am in the process, long considered, of going no contact with my daughter.
I divorced my N/P H 4 years ago, after a long and messy divorce. She has been angry with me, and I thought very stressed by all that happened, so I gave her the benefit of the doubt. She did not give me the benefit of the doubt. Even after seeing what her father is really like, when she had to deal with him on her own, and seeing what I am really like living with me on my own, she still treats me badly and like it is all my fault.
She has had a lot of life problems. Our psych and custody evaluator said she could not be abused since she did not show the signs. Well, she meets most of them now. Her life has not been what was envisioned pre-divorce.
Now she has started verbally attacking me, challenging my personality and my decisions or care of her. (I spend most of my focus over the last few years on my kids.) She has tried to manipulate relatives of mine and my boyfriend. She seemed to think she could fool these people and I would not find out what she did. Wrong on both counts. She minimizes my good qualities and accomplishments. She is obsessed with herself, personal pleasure, fun and entertainment, and staying on the move. Others who work with teens say she is far more narcissistic than the usual teen. Her older and longer-term friends seem to be dropping away. With the ongoing anger, even after understanding more who I am and who her N/P father is, and with the narcissistic behavior and personal attacks, I have decided I can't and do not have to take this from an adult child, and can not take narcissistic abuse from another generation.
I've been facing this possibility for over 2 years. At first, it was horrifying. I was uncertain whether I was seeing her right, but subsequent behavior has made it clearer and clearer until I can no longer miss it.
I guess I just wanted to share with the group, and let people know that sometimes it turns out this way. Does anyone else have experience with going no contact with N or P children of N or P spouses/SOs? The way I feel, I'll check in with her when she's a few years older and maybe has more perspective and growth.
I divorced my N/P H 4 years ago, after a long and messy divorce. She has been angry with me, and I thought very stressed by all that happened, so I gave her the benefit of the doubt. She did not give me the benefit of the doubt. Even after seeing what her father is really like, when she had to deal with him on her own, and seeing what I am really like living with me on my own, she still treats me badly and like it is all my fault.
She has had a lot of life problems. Our psych and custody evaluator said she could not be abused since she did not show the signs. Well, she meets most of them now. Her life has not been what was envisioned pre-divorce.
Now she has started verbally attacking me, challenging my personality and my decisions or care of her. (I spend most of my focus over the last few years on my kids.) She has tried to manipulate relatives of mine and my boyfriend. She seemed to think she could fool these people and I would not find out what she did. Wrong on both counts. She minimizes my good qualities and accomplishments. She is obsessed with herself, personal pleasure, fun and entertainment, and staying on the move. Others who work with teens say she is far more narcissistic than the usual teen. Her older and longer-term friends seem to be dropping away. With the ongoing anger, even after understanding more who I am and who her N/P father is, and with the narcissistic behavior and personal attacks, I have decided I can't and do not have to take this from an adult child, and can not take narcissistic abuse from another generation.
I've been facing this possibility for over 2 years. At first, it was horrifying. I was uncertain whether I was seeing her right, but subsequent behavior has made it clearer and clearer until I can no longer miss it.
I guess I just wanted to share with the group, and let people know that sometimes it turns out this way. Does anyone else have experience with going no contact with N or P children of N or P spouses/SOs? The way I feel, I'll check in with her when she's a few years older and maybe has more perspective and growth.
I totally understand your painful choice that you have to make. You are right, you do not have to take this from an adult child, from anyone for that matter! Where would continued relationship with her lead anyway? To her continuing to blame you for everything you do? to being manipulated? lied about?
If your daughter is anything like mine and these N/S/P seem to be so alike, unfortunately, then there is nothing you can do except to protect yourself from her abuse by having no contact.
I have made this choice with my daughter and it is heartbreaking! But, I too have seen a clearer and clearer picture as to who she really is. She has blamed us from the point in which we figured out the girl that we knew and loved was not the same girl, she had pretended so well for years. The mask came off and the lies came out! She has had no remorse for anything she has done. She has blamed us for everything, lied to us and about us, posted lies about us publically, tried to manipulate us, and turned others against us. She has continued the pattern with old friends if they do not fall for her ways, and she blamed her husband for things he did not do and is already divorced at a young age.
Her father, my ex-husband is a P also. How easy it was for me to say that about him, how hard it is to say that about my daughter!! It took me a year or 2 to admit it and longer to accept it. It still hurts to know she is a P, but there is nothing I can do.
So sorry, Escapefor1,
Hugs to you!
My mom did this with my brother. For years after the divorce my brother was very supportive of my mom, so this whole thing has confused the hell out of me personally. But as time went on and my brother got engaged his support of my mother turned to condemnation. My mom chalks this up to how N's charm their victims first, give them the world, get them to rely on them and then discard them. I could see a lot of cruel behaviour from my brother, directed both at my mom and at myself. But I also saw strange things from my mother, which were unusual for her and only later learned this was due to her having a mini stroke. So my brother blamed his behaviour towards her on her strange behaviour...which this is why it's confusing for me because I often saw and heard both sides but only actually witnessed things myself on a few occasions. A lot of things my mom says are "out there" due to paranoia brought on by her stroke. And yet there are things I personally witnessed involving my brother that definitely make me believe he is N.
What saddens me most is my brother has 2 daughters now, both very young, and my mom is missing out on her grandchildren because of her choice to go NC. It's also difficult for me because I still have contact with both and anytime I do things with my mom (like take a trip together) I get the "Don't tell your brother this or that" speech and have to be very careful what I say all the time. My brother went from being quite cruel, blunt, hurtful towards me to suddenly being nice again after my mom went NC with him. While that makes me suspicious, it has also finally allowed time and space for me to develop a relationship with my nieces. I always wonder if the day will come when he somehow cuts me off from them after allowing me to become close with them, and then turns around and tells them it was all me. I don't know. It scares me. But meanwhile I maintain contact because of them.
I can only imagine how difficult that choice was for my mom, because when she made it she knew she would not see her grandchildren again. But I support her decision because it's what she felt she needed to do and I am not the one in her shoes so I don't know how bad things really got between them...there is a lot she says that I didn't witness. You are doing what you feel is best for you as well. And since you have already been through it with your ex (as my mom had as well) no one can blame you for not wanting to go through that same hell with your child all over again. As a parent you can only do your best while they are growing up. Once they are adults they choose how they behave, and if that is abusive towards others, it is absolutely in your best interest to close that door. As you said, you can consider revisiting things in a few years to see if she has changed, but as long as she is treating you horribly you have every right to walk away without guilt. It's a shame you have to make that choice at all, but sometimes it is necessary.
Finding truth, yes it is hard to call a child, flesh of our flesh, a P or N. I think in her case she may be NPD, but not truly a psychopath like her father. She has empathy, perhaps strong sensitivity too. But the mask is coming off as she grows more independent and does not need to rely on me any more. She's too young to know that as life happens, she may need me later.
Eternity75, it is a heart-rending decision for both cutting my daughter off, and potentially her children, who will be some of my grandkids. I fear a 3rd generation of Ns or Ps there, so that is also a horrific thought. I kind of feel at this point that the burden of proof is going to be on the kids to show they are normal, even though I realize that is not fair. I gave up so much of my life to help my kids through this and break the cycle of abuse, and I may not have done that with my daugher. Right now, neither child seems very appreciative, so I sometimes feel like I wonder what I did it for. I am not eager to repeat the same error for going on with her or her kids.
Your family situation with your brother sounds confusing and hard to sort out. The stroke your mother suffered is a problem, in that it is hard to tell what impact that had. It also sounds potentially like your brother relaxed when your mother went no contact and the battles ceased. Though I can also see it as now he needs/wants you or wants to thoroughly win, so you are back in the good graces. Only you, watching closely over time, will be able to see. It is good you are there for your nieces. Maybe you can help them grow up more normal. Our hopes are with our kids and grandkids to live a life truly free of N and P, eventually.
Strengthinadversity, we both did some counseling separately, individually. I urged her to continue going as she was having a hard time, but she refused. She refused to educate herself about her father either. She asked to go to family counseling, but I said no until she works on herself like I have worked hard on myself. I know that in the case of Ns and Ps, that joint counseling, for example marital counseling, does not help if one party is N or P, and often such counseling just makes the situation worse. I fear this would be the case for family counseling with her at this point in her life. I don't want to spend the time and money and continued focus on bogusness, but would be happy to meet if we were really going to get somewhere. Unfortunately, she does not do much that is hard, and does not stick to things. So I don't see her doing the work of the recommendations of a therapist anyway. Maybe that's a bad call, but I am trying mentally and emotionally to move on to a happier lifestyle and away from all the pain of the dark past. I'll go there for a good reason, but not to dally.
Thanks for all your thoughtful replies. It really helps. I feel less alone and less strange, in that most people do not go no contact with their children. A month or so in, I feel SO much calmer and happier. A huge pesky burden has been lifted off of my shoulders. For the first time in so, so long, I feel mostly free to se what's next for me and look forward to the future.