Victims of Psychopaths Community Group
Is he or she a sociopath or psychopath? Think we're only talking about serial killers here? Psychopaths, sociopaths and even narcissists come in every walk of life, every career level, and every socio-economic category.
Hi
I am wondering if anyone has kids with some possible PD traits (inherited/ learned from their PD mother or father) and have thoughts on whether codependency could be an issue. I wonder if I have been dealing with PD people for so long that I have developed unhealthy ways of coping.
Anyone know anything about this?
I'm pretty sure that my daughter who is now 17 has some kind of PD. I suspect borderline but as you know it is hard to get these people to get help.
Some history.... I will refer to her as A.
I am CERTAIN that her Dad has a PD.
A never says sorry. EVER. Nothing is EVER her fault.
She is having trouble with severe anger outbursts at home, school and with friends.
Doesnt matter when/where these outbursts occur. 6am in the morning.. 2am.. she will still yell the house down. Doesnt care. Will hit things and disturb EVERYONE. Anger outbursts are generally i you try to stop her from doing something.
Will do ANYTHING to get what she wants. As a parent this is the pits. She will disturb the whole household for hours so she can go out or whatever.
Unstable friendships. She hasn't kept a single friend for more than a year.
Drinks every day from what I can gather. (this is hard for me. We arent drinkers- she is under 18. God knows where she gets the alcohol from. She isnt coming home visibly sloshed though so I find myself powerless to do anything about it.)
A psychologist told her she is an alcoholic.
Has been arrested for shoplifting- the policeman was SHOCKED at her attitude about this.
Seems to be parasitic. She seems to get a lot of stuff from friends. This isnt new stuff so I know shes not a rampant shoplifter.
She says everywhere she goes people accuse her of being rude/ having an attitude but she doesn't know why.
Seems to think attending school is optional... she mostly goes but if something happens and she can have an excuse she thinks it is ok to constantly skip.... she does just enough to not get suspended from school.
Highly intelligent but refuses to do any actual work to get more than a pass in school. This is always the comments that she gets from teachers... "So much potential"
Recently became sexually active- like 2 months ago.. and has already had 3 different partners.
Excuse/lie for EVERYTHING. you wouldnt believe how often buses break down over here.
REVENGE on friends who have crossed her.
OBSESSION with friends doing stuff without her. Tries to control them if they hang out without her.
If she has a fight with friends she has to go out and do damage control for her reputation. It is like a compulsion. She cannot stand it if she cannot go 'fix' this.
Tries to influence her 15 yr old sister to drink.
I have sent her to so many psychologists over the years. She doesn't believe counselling works at all. she thinks they are all quacks. Devalues anything they have ever said.
Despite all of this- SHE DOESNT THINK SHE HAS ANY KIND OF PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So much evidence to the contrary. Child has never expressed remorse for anything in her life. Most of these traits have been fairly constant from pretty early on.
Any thoughts on what to do? Do I just let her do her thing cos I cant fix it at this point just til she finished high school and hope she moves out? Am I somehow co-dependant and need help myself.
I have 3 other children who are living with all this disruption. My youngest is 5 and watching all of this.
Sorry for the long convoluted post.
TIA for any replies
Coralie.
I am wondering if anyone has kids with some possible PD traits (inherited/ learned from their PD mother or father) and have thoughts on whether codependency could be an issue. I wonder if I have been dealing with PD people for so long that I have developed unhealthy ways of coping.
Anyone know anything about this?
I'm pretty sure that my daughter who is now 17 has some kind of PD. I suspect borderline but as you know it is hard to get these people to get help.
Some history.... I will refer to her as A.
I am CERTAIN that her Dad has a PD.
A never says sorry. EVER. Nothing is EVER her fault.
She is having trouble with severe anger outbursts at home, school and with friends.
Doesnt matter when/where these outbursts occur. 6am in the morning.. 2am.. she will still yell the house down. Doesnt care. Will hit things and disturb EVERYONE. Anger outbursts are generally i you try to stop her from doing something.
Will do ANYTHING to get what she wants. As a parent this is the pits. She will disturb the whole household for hours so she can go out or whatever.
Unstable friendships. She hasn't kept a single friend for more than a year.
Drinks every day from what I can gather. (this is hard for me. We arent drinkers- she is under 18. God knows where she gets the alcohol from. She isnt coming home visibly sloshed though so I find myself powerless to do anything about it.)
A psychologist told her she is an alcoholic.
Has been arrested for shoplifting- the policeman was SHOCKED at her attitude about this.
Seems to be parasitic. She seems to get a lot of stuff from friends. This isnt new stuff so I know shes not a rampant shoplifter.
She says everywhere she goes people accuse her of being rude/ having an attitude but she doesn't know why.
Seems to think attending school is optional... she mostly goes but if something happens and she can have an excuse she thinks it is ok to constantly skip.... she does just enough to not get suspended from school.
Highly intelligent but refuses to do any actual work to get more than a pass in school. This is always the comments that she gets from teachers... "So much potential"
Recently became sexually active- like 2 months ago.. and has already had 3 different partners.
Excuse/lie for EVERYTHING. you wouldnt believe how often buses break down over here.
REVENGE on friends who have crossed her.
OBSESSION with friends doing stuff without her. Tries to control them if they hang out without her.
If she has a fight with friends she has to go out and do damage control for her reputation. It is like a compulsion. She cannot stand it if she cannot go 'fix' this.
Tries to influence her 15 yr old sister to drink.
I have sent her to so many psychologists over the years. She doesn't believe counselling works at all. she thinks they are all quacks. Devalues anything they have ever said.
Despite all of this- SHE DOESNT THINK SHE HAS ANY KIND OF PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So much evidence to the contrary. Child has never expressed remorse for anything in her life. Most of these traits have been fairly constant from pretty early on.
Any thoughts on what to do? Do I just let her do her thing cos I cant fix it at this point just til she finished high school and hope she moves out? Am I somehow co-dependant and need help myself.
I have 3 other children who are living with all this disruption. My youngest is 5 and watching all of this.
Sorry for the long convoluted post.
TIA for any replies
Coralie.
As for your daughter, she cannot be diagnosed with any PD yet as she is a teenager. PDs cannot be diagnosed until age 18 due to the fact that children, particularly teenagers, can display a lot of PD traits as they are developing. But those traits are not necessarily set in stone until the brain is more developed. The brain is not fully developed until the mid 20s.
Have any of these psychologists suggested any diagnosis? It is likely that at this stage, with her age and behavior, she'd be diagnosed with something like Conduct Disorder. This could lead to future diagnosis of a PD in adulthood.
Another thing you didn't mention, has she been physically checked out? There are physical problems that can result in behavior problems. Hormone imbalances, thyroid problems, etc.
I hesitate to give any suggestions as I don't have children myself. There have been some parents in the group with out of control kids, maybe they will chime in. But if it were me, I'd probably be looking into some sort of program where consequences for action are strongly established and carried through. Like a boot camp type program or something. For cluster B personality disorders, that is the ONLY thing that might help them change their behavior - consequences. And I'd continue with the therapy, regardless of if she likes it. Borderlines can actually improve substantially with therapy. Good luck.
I feel like whining at you... but you don't know what it is like to live with her..... but you do- the only difference being she is my child not my partner.
She has been like this forever- Ive had my suspicious as far back as I remember. I'm at the point where I don't believe it is going to change. Getting her therapy doesn't work. She doesn't believe she has a problem. The last therapist called me in there and said that she cannot help her because she doesn't want help then terminated therapy.
We don't really have those bootcamp things in Australia... but she DEFINATELY does not fall into the normal categories of kids you would send there. She isn't a drug addict, she isn't stealing from me, she goes to school enough to not get suspended. She has been arrested the once for shoplifting. She isnt a criminal. She mostly doesn't actually hit people- she hits walls- she threw a drink bottle and it hit me in the eye (I did call the police) ... she has had one physical fight at school.
Here is a BIG RED FLAG. I feel crazy and like I need to justify my behaviour. Like I can explain and explain and people will just think Im lying.
I KNOW you guys know what this is like... living with someone who is a monster behind closed doors. She lies and turns things back on me. Blames EVERYBODY ELSE for her behaviour. She is fine.. it is everyone else who is crazy.
I don't think this is a case of just" out of control teenage behaviour. and it is even hard to put in words why living with her is so horrible. It is the same thing as that... "I can't put my finger on exactly how my PD partner is abusive but they just are"
Thanks for the suggestions for codependency.
Coralie.
I don't have any children so it's really hard for me to give any advice. I know it must be very difficult to deal with this.
What I noticed in your last message is that you seem to kind of flip back and forth from how bad she is, to defending her and saying she's not that bad. For example, she's not bad enough to attend a boot camp program. (I'm not even sure where you would find such programs or what the qualifications are). But then you go on to describe that she's "only been arrested once." I'd say that's a pretty big deal. Throwing tantrums and hitting walls and throwing things, I don't think any of this is normal.
I completely agree that there is something wrong with her. And since she is still a teen, there is still some chance of improvement. I think I would try to find a really tough psychologist. Maybe find a male. Then she can have a positive male role model in her life as well. One who's not going to give up simply because she's uncooperative. Emphasize that you are trying to save your child before she ends up in prison or something. You want to try to turn her behavior around before she becomes an adult. I would talk to several psychologists and explain the situation up front and tell them you need someone who can really try to get through to her and won't give up.
Like I said, it's hard for me to give advice because I don't have kids and I don't really know what it's like, and I have no idea what kind of options are available. I'm basing these suggestions on things I've seen on tv programs like "Scared Straight". So these programs exist somewhere but I have no idea how you'd apply for them. The reason I suggested a boot camp type thing was because she would have to learn how to respect authority, follow rules, etc. They wouldn't let her win. Her temper tantrums wouldn't get her anywhere.
I know there were some schools that you could send kids like this to, like reform schools, but some of them were so brutal that they were shut down for abuse. So you'd have to be careful in selecting one. You don't want to make her any worse with abuse. But you do want to set VERY firm boundaries and make sure that there are consequences EVERY SINGLE TIME she breaks the rules.
Also, if you really believe she is borderline, it comes from trauma in childhood, particular emotional neglect and feelings of abandonment. When did you and the father break up? Does he have any contact? She might have some deep rooted abandonment issues from that. That's why I was suggesting a male role model figure. I have a friend who is BPD, she is in her 30s and still chases after men who tell her they don't want to be in a relationship with her. She won't give up. She's even manipulated one into getting her pregnant (lied about birth control) in an attempt to keep him when he wanted out. Her life is a complete trainwreck. She's been arrested multiple times, she can't hold a job, she's always in trouble, she's always in terrible "relationships" where the guy is constantly struggling to get away and she can't handle the abandonment so she chases and chases and it's really sad. Abandonment is the core issue of BPD.
Have you tried to find a therapist who works with BPD? There is actually a good chance of recovery for BPD, which is rare for PDs. But according to the DSM 5 definition for BPD (which is in the "news" section of this group), they can actually improve to the point where they no longer meet the criteria for BPD.
https://www.teentreatmentcenter.com/-borderline-personality-disorder-treatment---teen-treatment-center/
I'm not sure where they're at but I assume they have things like this everywhere if you know where to look. It's probably expensive but they say there's a possibility of taking insurance (not sure how all this works in australia).
Maybe even contact them and ask if they know of anything similar in your area? Just throwing ideas out there.
http://www.evolve.org.au/pages/Young-Women%27s-Program.html
Ive been on this board for years and I really respect your opinion. I don't think it matters that you don't have children to be honest.....
The general questions you get asked as a parent when trying to get help for your child are....
Is she attending school??- I have to say- yes but she has a lot of days off. They say at least she is still there (final year of high school)
Is she on drugs? Have to say no- She drinks almost daily but neither I or the school have caught her drunk. ( she has come home noticeably drunk 2 or 3 times which they say isn't unusual)
Is she violent? I answer truthfully (hit things like walls- one fight at school- threw a water bottle at my head)
Is she out all night? Running away? etc- no. She just lies about where she is or makes such a fuss its not worth stopping her
Sex/promiscuous behaviour??- well she was a virgin until a few months ago- has now had 3 partners.
Has she been arrested? Yes- a caution for shoplifting but doesn't have a record.
So they- the helpers sort of say- well shes in school and not failing, not on drugs, doesn't have a criminal record. They will say its not unusual for a teen to get into a fight or to drink alcohol.....
On the surface it looks as if she is doing ok. Like a lot of personality disordered people do. Like how you get looked at like you are crazy when you start talking about all the horrible stuff your P/S/N partner used to do because nobody else ever sees it. The world thinks they are great people. Psychs start acting like I am the problem - like I can't cope with normal parenting stuff.
What they don't see- is the way she will bully, beittle me, rewrite history. The don't see that all of us (in the house) are scared of her. She doesnt seem to have limits on how far she will go to get her own way. She lies to her friends- Ive seen it and tells them she is beaten and abused here. She certainly doesn't care about her actions. Never seen an ounce of remorse.
I also think I might be being a little conflicted... because I am. I am being bullied and manipulated by my own child. I both love her and hate her at the same time. She has some fantastic qualities... but it sucks to love her because she hurts me. Its not a relationship I can terminate while she is 17, I'm not sure I would ever be able to go no contact.
In regards to trauma/ abandonment...
She was 7 when I divorced her Dad. She was also bashed quite badly by him that same year. Like thrown on the ground and kicked and given a concussion. (her father will not admit he did this to her even now)... At 13- She was forced into a car by her father in front of her friends and driven to his place with her screaming to get out. She has refused to even see him since then. He blames HER and has not bought a single birthday or Christmas present since nor has he tried to contact her. He says that A is abusive to HIM and that he needs to protect himself from her. He is DEFINITELY personality disordered. She has been treated badly by him her whole life.
Something that happened much earlier in her life would be that when she was 20 months old her sister was born prematurely and had a heart defect. A had a cold at the time and I saw her twice in two weeks. She was with her grandparents whom she adored though. I spent a lot of time in and out of the hospital with baby 2- up until she was 5.
I just don't know what to do anymore. Seriously no-one will help me because things don't look too bad on the surface. I can't send her to more therapists. There is no point because she doesn't believe anything is wrong. The camp places you talk about- She won't meet their criteria(no criminal record, not taking drugs etc etc). I have even asked about some sort of mandatory assessment when I believed she may have been having a manic episode- they said no- she is going to school blah blah.
My husband and I have discussed what we are going to do. I can't live like this any longer. I feel a responsibility to keep her here until she finishes high school and then we are going to ask her to move out. I honestly believe I have done all I can to keep A on the straight and narrow. I KNOW I have worked hard as a parent to bring her up right. It takes a massive amount of energy to parent her- Much more than my other 3 children combined. She doesn't care about what I have to say anymore (not sure she ever did- ) and I need her to work out for herself that she needs help. That is going to require her to live elsewhere- and when she behaves like she does here - she will be asked to leave.. and it is going to require getting fired from jobs when she drinks on the job and thinks attendance/punctuality is optional. She needs to figure out that she will actually have to put some effort into some things. Basically- she needs MORE evidence that her behaviour is not ok and she needs it to affect HER. Her lifestyle needs to be affected.. Her job loss which means she can't do stuff- having to move etc.
The problem is I have to live with my abuser for 8 more months. I need help with that. I asked about the codependency because maybe I can change something within myself to make it more bearable.
Thanks for your help :)
P.S.- The asshole ex takes all these problems as evidence of what a shit parent I am.... and takes all the credit for the other two children we have.
I'm the mother of a BPD son. (He's 34.) It's incidental to figure out what the cause. It doesn't matter where or how she became BPD. She is. And you have only a short window of opportunity to make a difference. Why? Because she becomes 18 very soon, and she, not you, will be in control of her medical treatments.
You need a specialist in BPD. There are two basic approaches. One is called Mentalization Based Treatment, MBT. The other is Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, DBT. MBT deals with the issue as an instability of attachment. DBT considers it an emotional dysregulation. Quickly, find someone in your area who has this specialty.
Mental health professionals will not put a label on it 'til the person is 18. But that doesn't mean you can't get started treating it now. She will not wake up on the morning of her 18th birthday and receive BPD as a birthday present. It's been forming for quite some time.
Here are some of the things you've mentioned that make it evident....
She is impulsive... alcohol and sex.
She is oppositional/defiant.
She thinks rules don't apply to her.
She can't control her temper.
She is vengeful.
She is oversensitive (friends hanging out without her, and I'm sure there's more.)
She is disrespectful.
The help you need is to recognize what you're dealing with and stop questioning what your brain is telling you. children of Cluster Bs are at high risk for developing character disorders of all types. This one is treatable if you get her the right professional. While she's still dependent on your and living in your house, you have control. If she moves out, before shes 18, you still have control. Use it to get her the help she needs.
Sorry to be so blunt. I wish someone had told me this when my child was that age.
Good luck!
Joyce
I'm not sure why I am trying to justify it. I KNOW what she is.
What I am trying to tell people is I CAN'T get help for her. She won't go to therapy and when I take her anyway the therapist says that she doesn't want to be there so it was a waste of time.
She does not outwardly display any behaviour that means I can force her to get help.- that's what the - Is she going to school? stuff etc is about. I have followed through with many things. She tries to hurt herself- I took her to ED and got her therapy- (thats the one who called me in and said she can't help) ... she hit me with a drink bottle I called police-
You are all right- I CAN force her to GO to therapy- which I did... but I cannot force her to see she has a problem and to work on it. She is not flagged by any official people as needing help either. So I am stuck.
I am saying.. I am pretty much useless in this situation now. I have worked hard. I HAVE known for a long time that this was a possibility (when I learned about my ex's PD- I recognised it in her and she was still small then). I have taken her to therapy. I have applied lots of consequences. I HAVE done everything ***I**** can do to help this situation, I believe all the stuff I have done has got her to this point. I honestly would have NO ISSUE if I was called up to God or a court or whatever and asked-- "what have you done to help your daughter?" I could fill a book with what I have done. (and to be honest with you- sometimes this has been at the expense of time and energy that I should have spent on the other children). I have been told by the psychiatrist emergency team that the only way I can force her get help is if she does something to hurt herself and if she does I promise I will pounce on that opportunity quick smart.
All teenagers get to a point when their parent's opinion doesn't really count anymore. She is well and truly past that point.
My only hope now is that LIFE will apply natural consequences. Like unstable housing and jobs and she will see that she needs help. I am aware that may never happen. It is the only hope I have left.. I KNOW there is limited time to change her. I KNOW that she is not going to get help while she still has a nice warm bed to sleep in and food on the table. I actually feel like the quicker (younger?) she is forced to fend for herself- the better the possibility that this would work.
I have been living with this for a looong time. Ive KNOWN for a long time and I tried to change it for a VERY long time. There has to be a point where SHE is responsible for getting herself straightened out. (though I doubt she will ever see it that way)
I wanted some help with how to deal with this. I will house her until she finishes high school. Joyce - how do you deal with it? How did you deal with it when he was younger? I understand that you wish you had gotten help for your son- I've been there and done that multiple times. I'm sure it has helped some but she is certainly not 'fixed'. Do you have any strategies to help you??? Anyone else?
Coralie.
I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through. You are me several years ago. I hear myself in every issue you raise. Ultimately, my way of freeing myself from the most harmful and hateful disrespect my son hurled at me, his complete and total split with me at the age of 27, I wrote my book, "Carnal Abuse by Deceit." Until I wrote it, I was devastated. Conducting the research and examining the past helped me put it all together in an understandable way.
I was not aware that your daughter self-harms. My son was a cutter along with drinking, drugs, opositional/defiance, stealing, playing with fire, taking a gun to school (which got him thrown out of his college dorm), stealing, etc. He menaced me all the time. there were nights that I slept in my Jeep because I was afraid of him. Unless a person has lived with a child like this, they don't get it. I get it, 100%!!
I knew my son had empathy issues from the time he was little. He killed his little rabbit with his bare hands when he was 4 years old, No tears. Totally deadpan.
I simply did not know that it indicated that he'd develop a character disorder. When kids are young, they call it "conduct disorder" or ED. Mental health professionals don't want to label them, even though, when a child exhibits the level of outrageous behavior that ours do, it would truly be helpful for them to do so.
When my son was growing up, the internet was in its infancy and you couldn't research this type of information on-line. I was completely in the dark about the nature of his condition. I think you are likely to be better off by knowing. That way, you know exactly what the goal is...... getting her to recognize that she has BPD, and getting her to deal with it.
If I were you, I'd leverage the warm bed with clean sheets, three square meals and money in her pocket for seeing a therapist, whether she likes it or not. I would also buy her a book about Borderline Personality Disorder and devise some form of consequence if she refuses to read it. I would definitely look for a therapist that is a specialist in BPD. Not every therapist will know what to do for her.
People with BPD are oversensitive and afraid of abandonment. They are emotionally dydregulated. What she really wants is approval and acceptance, I used to think that my son would push me to the brink to see just how much I loved him. It was as if he was testing me in order to know he was truly loved. I think, in his mind If I still kept a roof over his head even though he was totally menacing toward me, I must really love him.
Unfortunately, Narcissism also goes hand-in-hand with BPD in about 30% of cases. That's where grandiosity comes in. They are trying to establish themselves as "worthy" or "special" in the most antisocial ways possible.
Along with getting her a book, I'd write her a letter. Not long.... but to the point. I'd say something like this.....
My Dearest ________,
From the moment I laid eyes on you, I loved you from the bottom of my heart. That love will always exist for you, no matter what you do. I see that you are in pain and struggling for independence. And I have read enough information about behavior issues to know that there is meaningful hope for you in order for you to find acceptance, joy and love.
I know you do not want to be harmful, even when you cause harm. And I know you have a condition that is not your fault, and that can be dealt with in order for you to lead a happy, successful life.
I am giving you this book so you can see that you are not alone. The feelings you have that make your life difficult can be dealt with. I am asking you, with all the love in my heart for you, to give it a try and come with me to see a specialist with experience who understands the condition you have and can help you. I love you and only want to see you happy.
With all my love,
Mom
Best of luck! Let me know how you make out!
Joyce