The Den Community Group
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Dear all
I was barely active on all three sites I am the member of. I can only honestly describe why I do not post or comment. There are discussions that touch me deeply and I get moved, and so many thoughts come to my mind. I start to think what I can write, and then I understand that everything is such a long story and to squeeze all not that important things and leave only essential point I want to make is just impossible. There are facts which judged superficially might seem positive and encouraging, but in truth are not that at all. So, I take a deep breath, think of all us, mentally send my best wishes to everybody and do not write anything.
So to the facts. I am truly over my estrangement and I will try to explain how it is and what it means for me. I resumed contact with our son and his now wife. After she apologised and admitted her lies, I made a choice to accept her apology. I have nothing against her. She is who she is. I did not raise her, she did not know us when we met and I believe now that her attitude towards us was not even personal. So, she is not my concern at all. She is the wife of my son. I actually, to my surprise, enjoyed my private time with her, when we met 3 times just two of us. Our son, however, is another matter. Though he apologised too, several times, he still does not understand and does not accept that his actions were total, complete, unprovoked betrayal of his family of origin after we greeted and welcomed his girlfriend with open heart into our family. This was not acceptable and never will be tolerated both by me or my husband under any circumstances.
I decided to resume my contact with him and give him another chance to learn in the process and see whether he is serious for several reasons. This situation was hard on him, his health suffered, he let himself go in many ways and no one around him, neither she, her extended family (he is treated as mini or even not that mini tsar there), nor his friends had the courage to confront him with that. I am my own person and I know that it would be very difficult for me to accept that I add extra stress to his life. There is plenty created without me. But in principal I agree with my husband, he did not understand what he did and is not ready to accept full responsibility for his actions and in simple terms it means that he will do it again. Experience taught me that people learn only when they truly pay for their mistakes by their hard suffering. If they get away with "murder" so to speak, nothing is going to change, no matter what they say or promise. And they have to want us really badly in their life and, sorry to say, not for money or baby sitting or any other benefits. That what I have discussed with her at length. I offered them to think hard if they really want me at their wedding and their life altogether. I do not lie, I am too old and unwell to pretend, I do not play games and do eggshell walk. I am nice, civil and kind, but I will call the spade, as it is - a spade. I never make situations uncomfortable, just the opposite, but faced with direct questions, I answer them honestly and do not shy away.
I went to the wedding, my husband did not and we both were happy with our decisions.It was nice, happy and fun wedding. It was clear to me that we are not a part of his happy, successful and enjoyable life with adoring family and friends. I had a good time catching up with some of his friends, former university professors I knew and meeting distant relatives, coming to introduce themselves. Because I am emotionally over this unexpected and undeserved horror in our lives, it was easy for me. It was just a nice wedding and all my physical needs were met. He organised a place for me to stay in the city in between different events and to stay the night and transport. He picked me up in the morning himself. But I felt nothing, not like zombie nothing, numb, but nothing for a mother at the wedding of the only beloved son with good and friendly relationship our whole life. It would be so much harder for my husband, he would be devastated and I am very glad he was not there. He did not rip his heart apart and burned and thrown away the part were his love for his only son and only existing relative was. I did, not because I am clever, or wiser, or stronger, but only because it was killing me.
I am reconciled? No, I do not think so. I do not think that reconciliation is possible as an option if there was an estrangement. What was there before is gone, gone forever. It is destroyed, it is broken. We do not have to kid ourselves that we can get it back in any shape or form. The best thing we can have is to create and nurture some new relationship with an adult, we knew, loved as a child, do not know now, but still love, because they are our fresh and blood and it is impossible to un love the child. We might not like them, but we will always have feelings for them. I do not want to destroy what was a significant part of my life, which I enjoyed and is part of me. I am very comfortable with all photos, did not throw anything away. It was my life and just because my adult child has chosen to behave badly, I am not going to throw part of my life on a rubbish tip.
I have no plans or expectations, life will show what is going to happen. Am I eager to see him? No. I am indifferent, I will see what will unfold. I can only tell you one thing. I will tolerate NOTHING, absolutely nothing I do not like, not even normal compromises he might have deserved as a family member. He made a choice to exclude us, we are not his family now, I/we owe him nothing. We owe ourselves a life and we are living it!
I will write as I feel and please forgive me that it might sound harsh or unreasonable for some of you. He and his wife, or even her extended family missed the free bus on the road to the privilege to have us in their lives. They now have only the chance to work really hard for it. As for us, we are both very busy with our individual and joint projects. We are still the same active, curious, productive people, even when I am sick. The difference now with my projects, that they are simply projects I am interested in and not a medicine that takes my mind away from despair and keeps me busy doing things.
I also want to mention that I love my son, I am proud of his professional achievements and work ethics, I wish him and wife happy and fulfilling family life. Their life is not my business, but my life is. We are sure, that if not us, life will teach him a few lessons and he will then pay his price dear to him and may be then I will be able to be proud of him as a person, not as just professional and provider for his family.
Thanks for listening, I would never be in the place I am now without your help.
Kutani
I was barely active on all three sites I am the member of. I can only honestly describe why I do not post or comment. There are discussions that touch me deeply and I get moved, and so many thoughts come to my mind. I start to think what I can write, and then I understand that everything is such a long story and to squeeze all not that important things and leave only essential point I want to make is just impossible. There are facts which judged superficially might seem positive and encouraging, but in truth are not that at all. So, I take a deep breath, think of all us, mentally send my best wishes to everybody and do not write anything.
So to the facts. I am truly over my estrangement and I will try to explain how it is and what it means for me. I resumed contact with our son and his now wife. After she apologised and admitted her lies, I made a choice to accept her apology. I have nothing against her. She is who she is. I did not raise her, she did not know us when we met and I believe now that her attitude towards us was not even personal. So, she is not my concern at all. She is the wife of my son. I actually, to my surprise, enjoyed my private time with her, when we met 3 times just two of us. Our son, however, is another matter. Though he apologised too, several times, he still does not understand and does not accept that his actions were total, complete, unprovoked betrayal of his family of origin after we greeted and welcomed his girlfriend with open heart into our family. This was not acceptable and never will be tolerated both by me or my husband under any circumstances.
I decided to resume my contact with him and give him another chance to learn in the process and see whether he is serious for several reasons. This situation was hard on him, his health suffered, he let himself go in many ways and no one around him, neither she, her extended family (he is treated as mini or even not that mini tsar there), nor his friends had the courage to confront him with that. I am my own person and I know that it would be very difficult for me to accept that I add extra stress to his life. There is plenty created without me. But in principal I agree with my husband, he did not understand what he did and is not ready to accept full responsibility for his actions and in simple terms it means that he will do it again. Experience taught me that people learn only when they truly pay for their mistakes by their hard suffering. If they get away with "murder" so to speak, nothing is going to change, no matter what they say or promise. And they have to want us really badly in their life and, sorry to say, not for money or baby sitting or any other benefits. That what I have discussed with her at length. I offered them to think hard if they really want me at their wedding and their life altogether. I do not lie, I am too old and unwell to pretend, I do not play games and do eggshell walk. I am nice, civil and kind, but I will call the spade, as it is - a spade. I never make situations uncomfortable, just the opposite, but faced with direct questions, I answer them honestly and do not shy away.
I went to the wedding, my husband did not and we both were happy with our decisions.It was nice, happy and fun wedding. It was clear to me that we are not a part of his happy, successful and enjoyable life with adoring family and friends. I had a good time catching up with some of his friends, former university professors I knew and meeting distant relatives, coming to introduce themselves. Because I am emotionally over this unexpected and undeserved horror in our lives, it was easy for me. It was just a nice wedding and all my physical needs were met. He organised a place for me to stay in the city in between different events and to stay the night and transport. He picked me up in the morning himself. But I felt nothing, not like zombie nothing, numb, but nothing for a mother at the wedding of the only beloved son with good and friendly relationship our whole life. It would be so much harder for my husband, he would be devastated and I am very glad he was not there. He did not rip his heart apart and burned and thrown away the part were his love for his only son and only existing relative was. I did, not because I am clever, or wiser, or stronger, but only because it was killing me.
I am reconciled? No, I do not think so. I do not think that reconciliation is possible as an option if there was an estrangement. What was there before is gone, gone forever. It is destroyed, it is broken. We do not have to kid ourselves that we can get it back in any shape or form. The best thing we can have is to create and nurture some new relationship with an adult, we knew, loved as a child, do not know now, but still love, because they are our fresh and blood and it is impossible to un love the child. We might not like them, but we will always have feelings for them. I do not want to destroy what was a significant part of my life, which I enjoyed and is part of me. I am very comfortable with all photos, did not throw anything away. It was my life and just because my adult child has chosen to behave badly, I am not going to throw part of my life on a rubbish tip.
I have no plans or expectations, life will show what is going to happen. Am I eager to see him? No. I am indifferent, I will see what will unfold. I can only tell you one thing. I will tolerate NOTHING, absolutely nothing I do not like, not even normal compromises he might have deserved as a family member. He made a choice to exclude us, we are not his family now, I/we owe him nothing. We owe ourselves a life and we are living it!
I will write as I feel and please forgive me that it might sound harsh or unreasonable for some of you. He and his wife, or even her extended family missed the free bus on the road to the privilege to have us in their lives. They now have only the chance to work really hard for it. As for us, we are both very busy with our individual and joint projects. We are still the same active, curious, productive people, even when I am sick. The difference now with my projects, that they are simply projects I am interested in and not a medicine that takes my mind away from despair and keeps me busy doing things.
I also want to mention that I love my son, I am proud of his professional achievements and work ethics, I wish him and wife happy and fulfilling family life. Their life is not my business, but my life is. We are sure, that if not us, life will teach him a few lessons and he will then pay his price dear to him and may be then I will be able to be proud of him as a person, not as just professional and provider for his family.
Thanks for listening, I would never be in the place I am now without your help.
Kutani
TY VERY much for taking the time to write, and i hope your continue! You are a very strong, well balanced person. I'm grateful for this.
{{hugz}} Best regards to your DH as well. He is a lucky guy! :)
They obviously have no power over you any more, you hold the power and you are living the life you want.
I so understand the disconnecttion you have achieved with your son.....its a necessary step if we are to survive and thrive again successfully. I think of my sons now as the POD People....aliens that look and pretend to be my sons but who are not my sons.
I too have kept momentoes, but they are not on display anymore. I don't need to memorialize them with a shrine!!!!
I am also proud of their achievements career wise, but know that they live under the shadow of their own lies and delusions....and the knowledge that we taught them....the piper always gets paid. It will be a sad day but perhaps they will be better human beings afterward.
I wish I could feel about my DIL's the way you do......I did for a short time when reconciliation looked possible.....but now I know that they prefer to be hateful, and controling their husbands and kids is far more important than loving them and those who love them. This kind of Usery is just intolerable, and I won't abide with it.......I prefer silence over lies every time. Without Trust there is no relationship, only unease and discomfort.....I don't even want to go there.
Kudos Kutani......may we all find the peace and stablilty that you have found!
Hugs!
I truly think that once we all take the emotions out of the equation, we can handle ourselves in a more productive manner. As you stated, the relationship we had with them is now gone forever. It can never be the same again. If the stars ever align and there is a chance for a reconnection, it will be a development of a new relationship and not a revival of the old one. A tricky and slippery path if there ever was one...
Your logical and stable take on it all is amazing... and very therapeutic for all of us. Thank you for this post. Please don't hesitate to respond to other posts.... no matter how long or short. We love hearing from you!
So what happened now? Were my life circumstances so unbearable, was I completely out of my depth, were the events so unexpected and shocking? All this is true, but I came to the conclusion that the main trigger was that I realised that I am not special, not better then anyone else, I am human, and even with all the thinking and analysing and trying to be the best I can, I still do not understand everything, I still make wrong choices, still make mistakes. No matter how I prepared myself, I can get overwhelmed and shaken and can lose the ground I was standing on. My ego took a beating and it was very good for me. It was humbling and liberating experience and I felt no shame in being in the very bad place, admitting this to people and being open and ready to accept their support, understanding and advice based on their experiences. If only for this lesson I should be grateful for estrangement to happen in my life. And I am very grateful. People in there groups, as collective, taught me the most valuable lesson in my life and my life is so much better for it.
Arm, I think that I will go the same way with DIL and her family. They are, as I can see now, and may be I am mistaken, a very loving family (may be with a clan mentality), when everything what is theirs is the best and finest, and the rest of the whole world is inferior. So if you belong, you brilliant, the best and all the rest and the reality takes the back seat. So sometimes it is true, but sometimes completely not true. In my observation they feel threaten by anything really good, exceptional, fine, which they do not have. Other people's achievements had to be talked down and that's how they feel better. And I saw the same trend started to appear in my son's judgements, comments. He never had that in him. I did not want to make any waves and spoil their honeymoon in Europe, but when it was over, but he was still in Europe on his own, I wrote him an email with all my observations and asked him to think about it while he has time to himself and out of his very busy life with routine and no time for reflections. It was a hard message to read and I am sure difficult to confront. My husband said that the wedding is over, social norms are respected and he will not answer and you are for the second round. He actually answered within hours and said that we will discuss the topic I raised when he comes back. Good sign, but again, it's just words, we'll see what happens.
I agree with you, Barbara, emotions can carry us to places we did not want or expect to go in the first place. I thought hard about sending this message and I did it not because it was burning inside me, but because I thought that genuine relationships of love and caring should not be based on false pretences and I will not keep quiet and swallow something which I know would not be in his best interests. I have to calmly voice it, be ready to listen to his arguments and let him make his own judgement and choices after that. I am not prepared to sing praise with the adoring chorus where there is nothing to sing about. If he is not ready to listen to his loving mother in kind manner and gets upset or annoyed, or angry, so be it. I am not interested in superficial, social relationship just to pretend that we have one.
Kutani
I too am very passive when in conflicts arise and when confronting people. (or at least I try to be...) And although this drives my ED crazy when she tries to push my buttons and it never works.... I refuse to let her be aware of my emotions. Yes it hurts and yes it makes me angry... but showing that is not productive at all.
You said "I have to calmly voice it, be ready to listen to his arguments and let him make his own judgement and choices after that." This is all we can do with them when they are adults. Sadly, for most of us, even the slightest mention of things that we see going in the wrong direction causes rage, false accusations and a deeper level of estrangement. I truly hope that doesn't happen with you.
I have been thinking also of the topic of "reconciliation". I honestly believe that for all of us, this can never be. The damage is done, wounds may heal, but the scars remain. I now prefer the term "reconnection". If any of the other EOs here are anything like mine, even reconnection is a very long shot. We probably have a better chance of winning the lottery. But even if it did happen, it would most likely be short lived because we have set our boundaries and will stick to them, which most assuredly will not go over well. Again, as you said..." I am not interested in superficial, social relationship just to pretend that we have one." I think most of us can agree and support that statement.
I'm hoping your entire post will help others to rid themselves of the anger (emotions) and therefore be able to move forward in a positive way. We all need more peace and less negative emotions in our lives. You are a tribute to achieving that.
Lastly, I want to say that I'm so happy you have allowed others to lessen your burden by sharing your story. All of us are human and none of us can do it alone. We think that we are being strong and being considerate to others by keeping our pain and our troubles to ourselves. Simply not true. Sometimes we must allow others to help us just as they allow us to help them. We want to help others. They want to help us. Ok... maybe not "all" people, but the special ones in your life that you know care about you. Letting them in and sharing both the good and the bad, is what living is all about. I shut out people for years and only in the last 5 years have let people back in again. This is when I was able to gain control back in my life, move forward and enjoy life again. I know now, for a fact, that I would still be closed off and in that dark place if it were not for my very good friends. I'm grateful to them everyday.
I'm looking forward to more posts from you. Very enlightening!
Yes, I agree, that to open yourself completely without reservations, with all good, not so good and everything you are, is very liberating. I also make sure that now I show how I feel about many things. No one is a mind reader. As my son told me, but I never thought you were so upset or hurt. I might not show emotions, because they cloud my judgement and I want to have a clear mind during meaningful conversations, but I make sure that I articulate how I feel, so people know where they stand with me.
Kutani