That might be a good list Sand. I'm never sure what to say. Everything seems to hurt at discovery. I can only know what was helpful for me personally. I think that was to realize the overall impact of the situation on my emotions, my thinking and my body. It had always seemed my way to immediately confront the issues, lose my temper, and let emotions rule my thinking. I had to overcome that immediate response and think about what I needed to do about my life.

I feel like some "should not do" might be:

underplay the pain these situations create
suggest that the problem is self created
suggest that honest communication should be avoided
suggest more empathy for the other than for the wounded self
suggest that anger is a bad thing
suggest that attention to the impact on others is more important than addressing the impact on self

That's just a few that were injurious to me personally. What most injured you?

Suggesting there was not enough sex or housecleaning. ...

Well, that's two I didn't hear Sand. I tend to be "almost" obsessive about my housekeeping. I'm never quite right if my house is a mess. But, I'm trying to learn there are far more important things to do than that. And, as far as the "not enough sex thing" there wasn't for me. I realized some time ago, after doing a thorough retrospect observation of our lives together that I was the one who was missing out on that...right from the start. He never, ever, had the gumption to keep up with me that way. I know why now.

He was so OCD I just gave up and let him do it his way. ..

Sand: When I discovered all of this seven years ago, I took a really comprehensive and long look at my part of my life with him, and before him. In retrospect, I see clearly that it took me a long time to learn to have a bit of due respect for me. I overlooked a lot of things that likely I shouldn't have. I know I wouldn't now. Not this particular thing, I really didn't know about the depth of this problem until seven years ago. So, I couldn't address, over many years, what I didn't know. However, like everyone, I've learned a lot of things over the years, just outright experience, plus education. So, my perspective of things now is radically different than it was the more than thirty years ago that I met him.

You said, "He was so OCD I just gave up and let him do it his way. .." I think in the past of our relationship I often did that too...in a way...let him do things his way...far too much anyway. But, truly, we were both wee youngsters back then. How much could we really know? If I knew then what I know now, this ol lady, things would have gone far differently than they did back then. But, that's back then, and I'm not that wee youngster. And, I don't think or feel the way I did then. I especially learned a lot in the most recent seven years too. I've learned a lot about him, who he is. But, I've learned a lot more about me, who I am.

I know that I was once far too sensitive, far too reactive to others. I have learned a lot about the value of emotional self reliance. I've learned to examine my own values and to either honor them, or change them. Some things I believed just were not true all of the time. I've learned that I am a unique individual with interests, desires and needs all my own. Not everyone thinks as I do. Not everyone enjoys what I do. Not everyone places value on the things I do. And, I know too that others are the same, unique, individual. I know the same is true of my H. His interests are not necessarily the same as mine.

Consequently, I can't just let him do it his way. I mean, he can live his life any way he chooses. But, I don't have to choose to live mine the same. I can't just change my values, desire and needs to mimic his. I'm not him, nor will I ever be like him. Nor, do I expect him to be like me. So, if the two individual lives of ours can blend in some meaningful, valuable and beneficial way, that's a good thing. But, if not, then I'm not going to waste my life, not doing the things I like to do, feeling good about things, just to please him. I was alive and an individual long before I met him. He wasn't always a part of my life. I enjoyed parts of my life long before him, during my years with him, and after all of this I do too.

So, his trying to convince me that his way is the right way won't ever do. And, I don't intend to tell him what is right or wrong for him either. But, I allow that I do get to interact with anyone at any level I choose. I've learned that I don't have to interact at all if I don't want to. That sounds so simple, but I once wasn't keenly aware like I am now. Knowing this, feeling this, has a powerful impact on what I do these days. I think I finally gave myself freedom..freedom from what I was taught "should" be...freedom of speech...freedom of movement...and freedom of thought. I set myself free to be aware and present for me. This true for me more and more all of the time. I've found it so much easier to see the other in their unique selfness when I am free in mine. I don't see them as a mirror of me, nor the other way around.

How does this concept play out? Well, my H can do as he wishes. I can do as I wish. And, I can accept or reject interacting with his wishes that I don't share. It feels so very much more honest to me. I came to think that hiding, reducing or disguising my feelings, giving up my wants, bending to his needs was dishonest on my part. I never really "liked" to do that. Who really wants to be silent when they're unhappy? Who really wants to just engage in sex when what they really want is more? Who really wants to play when reality is fading? I don't play any games and I don't allow any either.

So, I just don't. I came to the conclusion some time ago that if my needs are ignored I'm not happy. So, I tend to doing the things, whatever they are, that feel honest, good and pleasant. Others are allowed to join me if they like. But, they are not allowed to discount. That includes my H. There are many things I enjoy that he is welcome to be a part of. But, I am not willing to engage in anything with him that I do not enjoy...period. And, I don't have any desire to have him hide, disguise or reduce himself either. He might as well be himself, unique. If we don't blend well, then we don't.

I think that early on I was far too routinized in my thinking and living. This event, this discovery, this change set me to dashing routine and thinking critically about my feelings and my life. In that way, it was a very good thing.

So, what more things do I think one should not say? Maybe how things "should" be. How should anything be? I think it's more important to think about what really is and whether or not it's acceptable.

i have heard ...dont shame him he has enough shame....
that just about set me off the edge

I know what you mean Candy. Sometimes, sometimes...some of the things I heard or read were almost as crazy-making as his behavior, thinking and words. I guess that's because shame induces me to avoid what creates it, and it doesn't do the same for him.

"He really loves you " from people who had NO idea in what way he acted out. ..

Sand: Yes, that's not a great thing to say. Love is as love does is the way I see it. So, for someone to say, but, he loves you, it just sounds crazy. Love doesn't equal doing things that hurt the one you love...in my book. Love is a verb...not a noun. So, if it doesn't act like loving, doesn't feel like loving, then?

"Get over it." "How long is it going to take to get over it?" Or "we have already had this conversation." "It's all in the past, let it go."

When trying to establish a boundary in "our" relationship, I was told what I was doing was trying to define "his" recovery.

Nu: Those are definitely not good things to say. And, oh yes, I've heard them myself.

Here's how those kind of read for me personally. Funny...and...not so funny. How long? Well, the whole time, however long that is....that is.."if" I can "ever" "get over it." And, yes, likely had this conversation before, are now, and likely will again. And, even if we're not having the conversation, I'm likely pondering it. So, how long will it take for you to get over that's the way it is now? It's all in the past, let it go. True. All of it is in the past...along with the marriage. I married you at your behest more than 25 years ago, and that...is definitely...in the past. No doubt about that.

I just want him to be 'perfect'... dude... you are FAR from it.

Zen: I am flabbergasted how they can jump from "there" to "perfect" like that. Really?

Zen: I have just heard that one too! that I expect him to be perfect. No, what I expect is for him to not cheat on me, treat me with respect, and be honest with your words and actions. I feel like the blame is being put on me when I heard that one. Like my expectations were too high and out of the ordinary. He says for an addict in recovery that it is about progress and not perfection.