While I will agree that at some point, forgiveness is necessary if growth, evolution, change, and progress is to continue, I think it is often granted way too soon. Anger can serve a real purpose in recovery, and to short change its work with forgiveness is a mistake. Anger is an empowering emotion and is useful in getting the partner to look at their own issues and get into recovery for themselves. Anger also drives the partner to ultimately set boundaries in the first place. It enables the partner to define themselves apart from the addict, and allows them to really look at themselves, perhaps for the first time in their life, and ask themselves who and what they are.

Anger can be useful in re-establishing self-esteem by forcing the partner to look at how they have kowtowed to the addict and perhaps debased themselves over the years. It is useful in motivating the partner to get out and do for themselves, to self-actualize. And it helps the partner explore all of their life options, including those with the addict and those without him. So, when do you forgive?

To forgive too soon is to stunt growth and development, but to hold onto resentments too long can be toxic. If the spouse/partner is working a Twelve Step program, I wonder if forgiveness is acceptable if it occurs anytime before the individual works the Ninth Step (making amends). Until that point in time, I think anger still has work to do and should be allowed to run its course. Now that's just my opinion, and you don't have to agree with it. But it is something for you to think about.

Hey Choose-

I didn't read that entire thread so pardon me if I make no sense.

Trust is earned; forgiveness is given. Boundaries are created to earn trust, not forgiveness. I think spouses who have a difficult time forgiving generally do so because they assume it has to be followed by trust, which should never be the case. If you've committed to working on recovery with your partner and your partner has committed to working towards sobriety, I believe forgiveness is a crucial next step so bitterness has less room to harvest itself. If divorce is looming, then its completely up to the offended party if they want to forgive, but it might be a nice step to moving on.

But to second Charli, forgiveness offered too soon, before justified anger can run its course, can stunt the healing of both sides. You have to be able to grieve the loss, otherwise resentment can build and tear apart any potential healing.

Great topic, Choose.

I have never considered anger as the catalist for self actualizatoin as you are suggesting in the spouse. I think this is because my wife's anger is so much of a queue for me to get into the emotional state where I act out. Anger is so often un productive in my experiences. My mom was always emoting vogorously, which looked alot like anger, and my wife hides her fears, dissapointments, and hurt behind the strength that she preceives in anger.

So, with all this perspective, I have a hard time connecting with anger producing growth into self-actualizatoin. Maybe because without some help and maybe direction, it just cycles there, unresolved with no traction.

I am intrigued by how you came to forgiveness not being good before step 9? I found that the resentments inventory at the beginning of step 4 allowed me to take responsiblity for my conttributions to each of those resentments, gave me the humility to forgive which gave me the freedom to begin to be really honest with myself. I am not sure how step 4 and 5 would have gone if I had not been able to forgive those resentments before I faced my inventory. Why do you think that making ammends (i.e. seeking forgiveness) would preceed forgiving others? Very interesting.

I'm not saying you can't forgive before Step Nine, and as a matter of fact, a little bit of forgiveness does go on in Steps Four and Five. What I'm talking about is totally and completely letting go of all of your anger. As you begin to make amends to others, you should also be making amends to your partner, and to yourself. (Holding on to your anger will hurt you more in the long run than it will ever hurt the other person). This is the point where any residual anger that still remains should be released. It's of no further use to you at this point. It's done it's job. Let it go!

And just for your information, I don't see making amends as asking for forgiveness. What you are doing when you make an amends is apologizing for your role in whatever problems exist or existed between yourself and the other person. It is their decision whether or not to forgive you. It's not your responsibility to hang around until they do. They may never let you off the hook. But that's not your problem. All you need to do is apologize for your role in the misunderstanding, and then leave it at that.

Choose: Sorry to hear that you are still struggling with the resentment and anger in your relationship. I know how it hurts...I'm there too. I'm sorry for us all. Maybe the sharing of thoughts and feelings helps. I hope so.

I believe that's what usually happens when sexual promiscuity enters a relationship. That is the norm when monumental hurt is instilled and trust is destroyed. If there's a remedy, I've yet to find it. I'm still seeking it though. (Maybe that's denial too??!)

I haven't entirely given up hope, but am weary of the longterm efforts I've made to that end. So far, I'm tenacious and giving the relationship the best I can offer at this time. Hanging on with a tiny speck of hope for some meaning in the relationship now. That's all I feel, so that's all there is at this time. Can't give more than I have left to offer.

I can tell you what I feel and think about that and maybe it will be helpful. I don't know. Each person's beliefs and feelings about many things are so very different. Humans are more alike than different, but the differences that are there are vast and create all the personalities, lifestyles and the like that we see in humankind. So, my thoughts and feelings...are just that...mine.

You said, "forgiveness got them nowhere except for more denial but no healing." Well, on that subject: once long ago, I addressed my Hs behaviors, and made my boundaries pretty clear...I thought. Then, I forgave him (held little resentment...and little withdrawal from the relationship)) and let it go.

I just did "my" best in the relationship. I did my part...I thought...as a decent, loving wife....giving...giving...giving. Considering my mate and thinking about what would assist in achieving happiness in his life and mine...and our daughter's. And for the record...I didn't join him in his skewed sexuality...ever...and I never will. He was there alone in that world.

As facts would have it, I only found that boundaries and forgiveness were useless when my partner had no "respect" for my boundaries or the forgiveness I offered to him....or for me. He didn't stop running over my boundaries, he just hid it and ploughed right over them. So no healing occurred at all really I suppose. I didn't know it...but I must have been in denial of some kind? Is living one's life the way they think it should be...doing the right thing...denial? I may never know that...I don't know.

I guess I operated in denial by forgiving and trusting? Is that what denial is? Trusting the untrustworthy? Forgiving? See,s that way to me. I do know the facts. What in fact occured is that the problem just got worse and compounded the problems that then were minimal. Now, they are really much much worse than ever.

My offering of peace and forgiveness did nothing at all...but waste a lot of years and twist up a lot of lives. That's how I feel. I tended to being sweet, kind, honest, loving...and all of that was to none affect at all. Because? Not sure. I think because he wasn't any of those things? Or at least where sex was concerned. And, the rest of the relationship suffered from that too. He became more and more inconsiderate in more and more ways over time...no matter how good I was to him. I might as well not bothered.

So? What can I do about that? Once again be loving, kind, etc? That hasn't worked. So, then what's the alternative...for me?

In the more recent past (2 years ago) when I found that he hadn't respected my boundaries...or me, I had to find a different way of dealing with it. Boundaries and forgiveness had failed. I wasn't and still don't know what can be done...if anything on my part at all. Still not sure. Playing it by ear..or living it as it appears to me at any given time.

So, forgiveness, for me, is not an option I am willing...at this time...to even consider valuable in any way. Forgiveness feels much like saying that what he did to me is ok. And it isn't ok. And it will never be ok. I will never say it was ok for him to have done as he did.

So, to offer that option...as in...I just won't speak of this again, or I'll entertain my own feelings about it, just smacks of denial. And, I refuse to be in denial ever again, if I can prevent it. Not sure I can though. Because, if his continuance on the sly, and my having no knowledge of that is denial...then how can I "ever" prevent denial? Because he can just continue his habitual actions even more on the sly and then what would be said of me again? That "I'm" in denial because I try to forgive and give? So where is the remedy? I don't know. Do you?

Now that may not be true of those who are confronting this issue for the first time. This is not the first time for me. I do however hope that it will be the last...although I have feel that I have no control whatsoever over that.

Facts do indicate to me that I had none before...so I have none now either. Newbies...as they're referred to probably haven't had the time just yet to really get in touch with how they "feel" amd what they "know" about their situation. So, remember that I'm different from the newbies. Been there...done that. And failed too. I didn't fail to do what is considered to be good in a relationship. I failed to realize that there was nothing I could do about his input. That always remained his thing. And always will.

So, boundaries? Yes I have many more boundaries now. But, that point may be moot too. Because? He can still ignore them. Forgiveness? Why would I even entertain offering what didn't work? That seems a little ignorant to me at this time. So, I'm left with what?

Well, I suppose, withdrawal of my emotional attachments to him. So that if and when he disrespects my boundaries, I have much less to lose, and much less pain to endure? That is all I feel I can do. Mitigate the damage. Keep boundaries on my own emotional attachments? That is all that "I" can control isn't it? What I do? What I feel? What I allow and what I don't?

I mean...I can refuse to allow him access to many things and that is "all" I can do. Isn't it? Can I make a decision for him? No. Can I demand respect? Yes. Can I ensure it? Only by enforcement. I can keep him at a safer distance from me. Disentangle him from my the other parts of my life. What else is there?

You said, "and why is fogiveness not possible when boundaries are enforced?" Well, if I were to really believe in him...as in trust...then I think that I would feel no need to make boundaries.

I would know that he had instilled his own boundaries. And that the only boundaries I would need to tend would be mind...as in.. remembrance of consideration for the needs of my partner. That is what I did before. Weighed what any action I might choose to take...how it would affect my H...or anyone else for that matter.

I call that considerate thinking. I'm just as capable of doing things that only suit my wants and ignoring the affect on others...if I so choose to do so. He doesn't have a patent on self-gratification...anyone can choose that path...even me, if I wanted to be that way. There is always that option.

In the past, I felt little need to set up boundaries to contain his actions. I believed that like me...he already had those in his mind. He obviously didn't. Or we wouldn't be in this situation.

As far as, "concluding resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense, difference or mistake, and ceasing to demand punishment or restitution." You seem to believe that one just "concludes" feelings. If so, then I could see where one could choose to do that. I have chosen to not demand the punishment...if it can be perceived as that...of a divorce right away. And, I don't feel that there is any possible way of resititution. He can never take back what he did. So, how could he possible offer resitution?

The fact is...in my mind...that he did what he did. And...that those actions bring certain reactions. And, that those reactions are the normal response to his actions. So, what I feel...is what I feel. And how could he fix that? He can't fix my feelings. And can I fix that? If so, I don't know how.

I suspect that I just have to accept that is how I feel about infidelity. And, the way I feel about infidelity isn't likely to change...unless of course I give up my religion and my moral beliefs...or something like that. I don't know. See, I don't feel that I could commit adultry/infidelity and claim my religion at all. I don't understand how anyone can.

You speak of weakness...and yet...you consider that a loving wife, one who has tried to please her mate, is a codependent, someone who is flawed and degraded. So, you answer your own question. It is seen as a weakness from the outside observer. And yet, to the one offering the kindness, consideration, proferring of trust and love, it is a strength...a giving up of oneself for another...a valient, respectable thing. So, which is the truth? I guess the truth of that is in the eye of the beholder. The ones who throw the stone of "codependenc" see weakness. The ones who embrace giving as a source and evidence of love...a strength. I'm no longer sure of the right "seeing." You tell me.

On the "punitive...or a way to get restitution" thing. There is no punitive action that I could take that would restore anything at all. Hence, restitution is impossible...as there is no action that would do any good...the deed is done.

I don't set boundaries regarding what I will accept, or any interaction I refuse, from my H as a punitive measure. I set them because I need to protect myself from further harm that he could inflict. Small stoppers in the destruction of positive emotion. A partial stopper of the pain his actions induce. An inpenetrable scar that protects what was once determined to be a good thing...and is no longer that...but instead a painful thing.

I perceive from some of the things you say that you think your wife withholds from you, or places boundaries on your interactions with her, because she wants to hurt you. If she is anything like me...that isn't why.

If I really thought that hurting my H would make me feel better there are lots of choices I could make...actions I could take...that might succeed lots better than trying to remain as open as I can and still protect myself from his actions concurrently.

She is just placing barriers to you hurting her more....if that is even possible. She is protecting herself from the source of the pain...your actions...you.

I know it is said that no ones actions can make a person feel anything. That they only feel because of their own psyche. Perhaps true. But, let someone take bamboo shoots and run them under your fingernails and see if that is true. Ones' emotions can change radically with pain. Emotional pain is just as signifying...and hurts just as badly if not worse...believe me. You should know that. You've had your share.

If I had no emotional connections to my H...if I didn't feel (my emotion) love for him, if I didn't place some value on interactions with him (intimacy) then true...I would feel little or nothing.

Maybe I might feel amused at his actions. Actually, I probably would feel amused. How very silly such actions really are....to me. However, because "I" believed certain things, and "I" valued certain things, in our interactions, my feelings got involved.

Were they not involved...it would be a very simple matter. In example, if there are biting mosquitos in the room...get out of the room...remove oneself from the annoyance. Simple and pure.

Sheenre, you presume my situation from my desire to provoke thought. This thread is a supposition, not necessaily from a personal place.

There are two simple Christian tenants I want to respond with.

First your position on infidelity not being forgivable is not shared by Jesus. Or the woman at the well, or his good friend Mary Magdalin the prostitute. Your high standards are not rightious, but in actuality deny Christ. In this way;

forgiveness is a command not a choice. God says we must forgive or God CAN NOT forgive us. This is because withholding forgiveness catagorically denies whAt was done on the cross. He already paid the price for your husbands sin. If you choose not to forgive it is to deny what Jesus already did.
The reason your forgiveness and boundaries did not work is because you have not done it yet. If you had your husbands behaviors from 2 years ago would not be in your face like they are.

So just for clarification, when exactly was the last time your husband looked at porn? You speak as if he is continually breaching hat boundary. Is that what is happening? Do you even know when the last slip occured? Are you willing to expose your self to an honest answer to this from him? If it was 2 years ago, you must take responsibility for kendling your own resentments with no progress, if it was yesterday, you must deal with that new wound and your denial. So which is it?

Choose: Sorry that I assumed your were speaking, at least somewhat, about the anger your wife...and you...still feel. You have spoken of it often...so, I assumed. So, once again, I'm wrong. Sorry.

You said, "Do you even know when the last slip occured? Are you willing to expose your self to an honest answer to this from him? If it was 2 years ago, you must take responsibility for kendling your own resentments with no progress, if it was yesterday, you must deal with that new wound and your denial. So which is it?"


"if it was yesterday, you must deal with that new wound and your denial." How can I possibly deny what I don't know Choose? If it was yesterday and he isn't telling me, then he's a liar...and that's all there is....he's a liar and refusing to take responsibility for himself. If I were to see, or he admitted, that he had done that...then yes..I would tend the issue immediately. I've yet to "see" it in 2 years. I only "saw" that once out of 17 years. So, if you're asking me has he admitted to any indiscretions...no. Or if I've seen any...no. Do I KNOW for sure. No. So there is nothing to tend that I know of at this particular time. If and when that occurs I will in fact tend it.


When? I know when he said it occured. I'm sure he knows the truth of that. As he has always known the truth of his activities. Will I accept an honest answer? I will accept an honest answer if I could determine what "IS" an honest answer. It's difficult, if not impossible, to determine when an avid liar is telling a truth. So, truthfully. I don't know when his last activity was...and I can never know that unless I actually see it...can I?

You asked me: Which is it? Which is what? Can I ever be sure that he's telling the truth...ever? He says he's not doing those things, I give him the benefit of the doubt. But, what has that got to do with anything at all regarding the damage that occured? The results of his behaviors is that I don't trust him. I don't know what, if anything, I can do about that. How do "I" attend to a lie? How do you?

On this " you must take responsibility for kendling your own resentments with no progress." Well, true that. I am responsible to tend to my feelings. I am responsible to do whatever I choose to do..or not do...about the way I feel. I think that is all I can do isn't it? Can I change the way I feel? I don't know. I can refuse to act on how I feel. That I do.

Am I kindling my own resentments? I resent what he did. That's a fact. And what might you suggest that I feel? I don't choose my feelings...they are what they are. I can choose what I do about those feelings...which is...nothing. I do nothing to either kindle them...or act on them. They are just there. What should I be doing? Denying what I feel?

The fact is that there is really nothing I can do is there?

Ohhh, Choose, I forgot. I guess I have done something about the resentments and feelings this situation invokes in me. That is that I set boudaries...both physical and emotional...in an attempt to protect myself from further harm. Isn't that all I can do? If not? Then what?

Bill: I 've pondered the benefit of a lie detector's test. There are a few questions that if I could ever "really" know the answer...might help. I am pondering that still. It might do some good...certainly couldn't do any harm....to me anyway...ha.ha. If he's not lying...none to him either...except for the anxiety of doing it. I've not been sure that her, where I live, there is a technician that I can trust to know how to perform such correctly. I do have trust issues.....ha! But, even if he passed the test with flying colors...in that he hasn't partaken of forbidden fruit...ha...I don't know how that would change things. But maybe so. Maybe I'll talk to him about that. If he turns pale and starts to shake...wellll....you know! Ha!