When I was a child, sexuality was scary and shameful because I felt it was out of my control. I felt my sexuality caused others to behave in ways which were scary to me. Then, in my teens, I learnt how sex and sexuality could be a bargaining tool and I learnt to use my "powers" for "good".

But, even though I was confident in my abilities now, I still felt like I was bad for even having a sexuality. Good girls didn't want sex or have a sexuality. A girl is a whore or other derogatory word for wanting sex - at least if the media and my dad were to be believed. By the time I was 16 I had a very powerful mix of social shame and the shame I took on from abuse.

Sex was my only moment of empowerment; at least what I thought back then. So I started to equate my "real self" to it and that feeling of hiding a part of myself...having to hide that part of myself for years compounded my shame. It also prevented anything from releasing my shame.

It is a very complex issue. For me, I never considered celibacy because of rape and the shame of rape. I became celibate to stop my self destruction within a sexual environment. Shame and sexuality were so entwined that I felt more myself when I felt the shame.

Shame is a topic I am covering in my therapy right now and I keep being asked where does it come from and what purpose does it serve. So far, the best I have managed is that shame is a reminder that I am bad. My first sexual experience that I have a memory of, I felt very bad. I knew it was naughty and when we were caught we were told we were disgusting.

Society has very conflicting and shame producing views on female sexuality. I'm a 90s-00s child and right on the cusp of my teens media influences (pop music) went from bubblegum children's presenters to let's be half naked and writhe around. Rather than celebrating sexuality, it was made into something gross and not what proper women do. I had all these hormones and I liked the empowerment of some of these women - breaking free of the restraints held on them to be "girls" for however long people enjoyed seeing them like that and breaking out into womanhood. That, had it been better handled, was a good message - be yourself.

I think that even without sexual abuse I would feel some shame about expressing sexuality. My views of what I should be like would still follow the lines of little women and all the old fashioned books. Women and girls didn't have sexuality, only never ending empathy and compassion. Women were seduced not the seducer.

Have you read Brene Brown's books on shame - definitely worth a read. 'Women and shame' and 'I thought it was just me'. She has spent most of her working life looking at the issues of women and shame and has a lot of helpful, thoughtful and inspiring insights into shame

I never felt shame about sexuality. However I do and have felt shame from the inability to have it and enjoy the real thing anymore. I still feel no shame when the real thing shows up as is does for me every so often. However I do feel that sometimes when I was unashamed and enjoying sexuality no problem that some times I felt outside influences causing problems or negative. However for me I have a very definite idea of what constitutes a real sexual experiences. So the only thing that I can figure is that since I have unfortunately discovered that one can due to abuse and repression ect have varied "sex" my feeling is that sometimes when people can't have the real feelings and get exposed to people having them that they might try to send negative messages to them because they don't get it or are upset that they don't know what it is and maybe they were given bad messages about it.

varied degrees of non sex

I think that one can feel shame because they feel that they are not deserving or good enough to have their sexuality received and shared and respected. But that is shame for being them selves as if something is wrong and they are not good enough to have sex or that there is no one good enough and trustworthy enough who wants to receive it and that might have to do any number of things.

might have to do with any number of things.

My impression is that it is a cultural/social legacy of viewing sex as only permissible for procreation. I think making sex and sexuality shameful is a social control tactic.

Its much easier to get people to "behave" if they believe there is something fundamentally wrong with them because they have sexual thoughts and desires... because everyone, to some extent, has sexual thoughts and desires.

Oh the other book to read is (and shut your eyes Judy!!) is Vagina by Naomi Wolf. She has a whole chapter on the vagina and trauma and linking that in with shame. The premise for her whole book is that the brain and the vagina are inextricably linked (hence the genitality of rape having a 'bigger' impact than other similar violent crime). Her view is that in our culture we can carry shame through our vaginas - not just through trauma, but by being spoken to badly, wolf whistled in the street etc. IT was really helpful for me to read it and helped put words around things I have found hard to in the past. i can really recommend it, but it is not really a 'light' read

I guess it has to do with your immediate culture of families and ect. For instance the first time someone made me feel like they were trying to "dictate" me to feel bad was a friend of mine who I never had a problem talking positive about sex ( didn't really talk about it just sorta enthused with indication) with one day tells me what another girl has said to her about me "feeling too good about myself" and she make it like we are telling you you are feeling too good about yourself and thus if you want our "friendship" maybe you shouldn't do that. So to me it wasn't until this particular friend crosses with that particular person that this happened. Kinda like one bad apple can spoil the bunch. I think that girls and women have a greater role in creating the shame environment than we talk about. Obviously they are reacting to something in their own lives so we can't just blame.

Plus I really think we need to talk about what the shame is...like in this instance the shame was in the feeling that these girls were using social inclusion or exclusion in a way to try to tell me how I they thought I should feel about myself. Feel too good you are excluded. I told her something she tells this girl what I said and then comes back to tell me what this girl who I did not share this information or dialogue with says. Yuck.

Can someone delete that last post. I was sitting there thinking how I wish ds had delete buttons for the person who writes the post and then I pressed reply anyway.

I think defining shame is an important question - so i hope you don't mind if i pick that out of what you wrote :)

I actually really struggle to define shame. After reading through this topic earlier on in the day, I came across a journal entry where I had asked myself; does shame exist without self-blame? It's not a question I attempted to answer then or since. In the context of this discussion I think it is another valid question.

Dictionary.com describes shame as:

1. the painful feeling arising from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improper, ridiculous, etc., done by oneself or another: She was overcome with shame.
2. susceptibility to this feeling: to be without shame.
3. disgrace; ignominy: His actions brought shame upon his parents.
4. a fact or circumstance bringing disgrace or regret: The bankruptcy of the business was a shame. It was a shame you couldn't come with us.

Number 4 is the only example that really speaks of shame without some form of self-blame involved (or number 2's complete lack of) and that is because shame, in this context, is a mere word..a condolence.

So, maybe another way of asking the original question might be - what links self blame and sexuality? Is there a culture of punishment around sexuality?

When I was asked what the purpose of shame was and I answered to remind myself I am bad...I kinda already answered with "because I blame myself". Not that I realised it before this discussion.

I think the difficulty in recognising shame as self blame, for me and within the context of it being self-blame, is the whole bucket of emotions shame creates. It is a physical and emotional disconnectedness from the world around me. And I guess, over the years it can seem like the disconnectedness was there before the shame.

When others instill that shame, I think our first question (unconsiously or consciously) is, what is wrong with me?

I know I have digressed a little/lot...

In terms of sexuality, the what is wrong with me question spreads out the whole breadth of sexuality. From sexual orientation to preferences and expression. Fr whatever reason, we as a species, seek the answer to, what is normal? So we look to peers, religious texts , TV, books - all created (and i dont mean to be religiously offensive) by other humans who didn't really have any idea what "normal" was either...but often had a social or political agenda/criteria to meet.

Shame is high in the lgbt community because of "what is wrong with _me_?"
Shame is high in the survivor community because of "what is wrong with _me_?"
Shame is high in religious communities because of "what is wrong with _me_?"
Shame is high in teenage communities because of "what is wrong with _me_?"

Imagine what would happen if that question were to disappear completely from our minds and vocabulary. Imagine what would happen if the quest for normality ceased. No blame. No shame.


@Unfurling - thanks for the recommendations. I have ordered a few already :)

The woman who asked me the question last week had said that healthy sexuality neither conceals nor causes shame. Which is interesting, since people can misuse sexuality to do either thing. But that's what got me to wondering, why are they linked at all? I know that religion plays a part for many people, but I also hear answers that our culture links them too--but is that something truly cultural, or is it culture borrowing from religion?

Unfurling is right--that book's not a light read. It's really thick and heavy, especially the hardcover. You could stop a train with it.

I am thinking even though we are "brash Americans" you would have to put a different book cover on it, unless you want people to ask questions or avoid you all together! The title does get one's attention!

That's what I like about my kindle -- I can hide all the potentially embarrassing book covers and titles!

Wrapping paper covers ;)

My school has an extensive library of resources but too scared to check it for that particular book. The others I can blag as course material. That one will be an eBay purchase lol

Matt - chicken and egg. The uk isn't particularly religious now so it would be easy to say that culture affects us more. But, these are older views when church attendance was more popular. Can we ever really separate culture and religion, isn't religion an integral part of culture whether we pray every day or not at all? I think they both influence each other too. Our understanding of religious texts and their "real world" applications changes over time.

However, if we are to believe the open sexuality of some of our ancestors when some form of religion existed..religion but power has been the major player towards shame and oppression. In fact, I was watching a programme on the history of humanity and it was only a very short time frame that humans have ever lived in complete equality. Right on the cusp of us becoming "civilised" as a species and living in villages.

Human nature, in a broad sense, seeks power and with that comes oppression. Once we began trying to define rules for behaviour in society we began (thankfully) restricting some behaviour. Fast forward a thousand years and our explanation for sexuality or lust was witches and demons. It was very much roote in religion and spirituality because that was our world back then.

Trickle to the present and we blame in a less - there is something inherently wrong with you way. Within a heterosexual context anyway. Other forms of orientation are treated with the same fear and blame as those "possessed" by witches and demons.

I also think there has always been some form of mystic about female sexuality. Men are animals and their sexuality is reproductive, essential. Women are goddesses, witches, demons and everything in between. The differences between how the sexes experience sexual desire affect behaviour.

Of course, we know that control is possible for both and sexuality for sexuality's sake is possible. That doesn't stop old myths of mysterious female power to make someone be sexual with them.

Just pondering and probably rambling on :)