Wish I could come up with ideas to help you but I am at a loss for ideas. The one thing i will say, is that at some point if your girls can't show you the respect you deserve you need to pull back and let them flounder for themselves until such time as they learn to be respectful. They certainly do not have to agree with you or your ideas, but through all the things you have tried to do for them and all the money you shell out to them (that you cannot afford) you have earned respect. I wish for you some an oasis of peace where you can rest and recooperate from all your trials and tribulatons. Hugs, dear friend.

Dadda, sorry you are having so many things happen to you. Hoping you get the peace your deserve and that things get better for you. Keeping you in my prayers. Hugs

My sympathies dadda. I wish I had the answers. My son who is a bit older lives with his personality disordered father, and is always making excuses why he can't come to see me. He is not disrespectful, as much as neglectful. I hope you won't have to suffer that it is no fun especially now when I could really use his support.

I am sorry, I played hob yesterday getting to the "big town" for transportation. I finally HAVE to say though, I called the DV agency out of desperation and the woman who runs the support groups came right out and gave me a ride into town. I wasn't expecting it and I was VERY appreciative. But I definitely don't want to be all "negative" when something positive, either. I had a reservation, as soon as I knew I had a ride, to pick up a car at 2pm ... not 10 minutes later, the woman called and said there were none til 5pm! I was a mess, but it wasn't as bad as that, thank goodness because "the boss" called and I was sweating and humiliated through all that. I know he has to think of business concerns, but he actually said he will pray for me, too. It keeps hitting me now that I "blew up" my career because I was getting boxed into one of those impossible situations that kept squeezing tighter and tighter ... I can't "blame" NH for my poor decision making, but it wouldn't have happened if he had been in my shoes (reversed). It was at the time like asking someone with a 104 degree fever to make a good decision and having people from work badgering ..."when are you going to be back?" I tried; I couldn't handle the degree of stress and I had NO support where I should have. So I should understand and forgive myself and I suppose maybe some people might as well (rational people).

I was exhausted, I think more emotionally than anything and woke up from nightmares this morning ... can't remember them but I kept thinking about the times I was walking with my older daughter and the dog in the little town and my younger daughter and I trouncing through the snowy woods back of here back when I first came back ... memories like 5 years or so old but almost so close to touch ... it was making me cry and my daughter hugged me before she left. It makes me so sad because I remember how screwed up I was and also, how affected (I can see) they are, but I will have to honor that they are adults who will make their own decisions how to live.

I have the book Caring Enough to Confront; actually, as a mother it's something you HAVE to do, IF YOU CARE about your children. Eyeswideopen, just the title is a great point, in fact in past I have sat down with my daughters when we've been arguing something out and tried to explain that the EASY course of action (for me) would be .... let you do whatever you want ... when you get in some kind of trouble, tell you "tough luck, you are on your own". Sometimes I know stuff that is going on and don't directly confront, as it seems it would be likelier to cause a "shut-down" or a meltdown, but I try to do what I know or think will help them best be prepared to live successfully, with a well developed brain and reasoning skills as an adult and without them "needing me" (I'm thinking of how N parents will set their children up to fail or at least NEED to come running back to boost the parents' "self esteem"). So that book is there in my bedroom and will read it further, but I am glad of the reminder it brought back to me that I DO have some good communication skills; the other night I just told my daughter I know she is smarter than what she was sounding like and will keep trying to emphasize the reasoning over emotional reactions ... and that "taking responsibility" isn't a punishable offense or reason for shaming.

And QuePasa, I know ... the money hurts at times, BUT again I have done the best that I know how and can, despite less than ideal circumstances. I tried to provide what I believe is right for a parent to and at times, they have taken advantage ... even people who turn out okay might, at that age and stage. And hopefully, I can work out paying my debts and living ... get to the point of thriving again and be able to show a role model of sometimes having to persevere ... as long as my values and practices continue to match up so they need not doubt (the only thing that worries me, actually is the economy and political things that have been and will continue to go on, which often mincemeat a lot of otherwise honorable people). I know I will have to let them flounder to grow and it will be scary at times, but my mother was super-protective and class conscious, so I know had I grown up around her, I'd probably have become an insufferable b*tch ( I remember some of my dumb "elitist" remarks as a child) and getting hurt a lot, as I was always more challenged and curious about the dangers she tried to protect me from - never any explanations given. Just wish they'd had an even keel and 2 supportive and encouraging parents launching them into their adult lives ...

Thank you for the prayers, too IDonna. I keep thinking to myself that things end up "working out" somehow, maybe not easily or in a way that's comfortable, but it seems like this must be a faith-developing time. I forgot I have a few friends around here ... as we don't "hang out" or see a lot, but a local couple of friends have been making contact, one let me use her car the other evening and I am remembering that often, it is the people who seem to be loaded down the most who are often the most giving. So I think too I am learning more about being a real friend and will be.

Snowy, I am sorry to hear about your son. Maybe in a sense, even though it might sound "trite" to say it, the "neglect" is a buffer for him of sorts. My father and stepmom divorced when I was about 14; I didn't know where she was as we moved across country, but somehow got her address about 15 years or so later. She has remarried and has "new" stepchildren (adults now, of course) but she has been out here to see us several times; my daughters call her grandma and have been down to her place for visits, etc. There would maybe be more likelihood of emotional confrontations if you pushed it, but people grow up and their priorities and perspectives change. I remember it was VERY tempting before I came back, to maybe have just "disappeared" and tried to explain to my daughters, later. No matter what, I think these situations are almost always hurtful at some level ... I sort of understand a lot of the emotional outbursts as displaced emotions and whatever else ... but especially as attempts by our children ... however they end up expressing it, as attempts at self-protection, of their sanity and of their potential selves. I'd guess a lot of us and even our children, depending on the levels of trauma, have some "pockets" of where our personality or other attributes haven't developed or fully so ... sort of put in cold storage and protected for better days. I hope that something in that thought helps you ... I know sometimes, I wish my stepmom would call more often but it is great when she does and I REALLY appreciate her. I could also pick up the phone, but in a sense this forces me into others' company and onto my own resources and even though things DO go wrong and are extremely hard, I have those moments of just KNOWING how well I sometimes handle something or I surprise myself with some talent or skill I didn't know til I was forced to develop it! I am NOW (and have been) REALLY appreciating how much I have accomplished and stuck through all this up and down, deprivation and being quashed. I keep thinking if I were on level ground, I'd have "blown the bad guys away" long ago. I never used to think like that at all during the hard times and sometimes I forget it now, when things are tough and I'm exhausted. Maybe, Snowy, by the time he has matured a bit more and not so much under his father's influences, you will have made some great progress so that you not only won't have a lot of nasty words or moods to get past, but no resentments from role reversals. I know I try not to ask my daughters for too much "support" or put them out of their way, but in my mind in normal families, people work together and yes, sacrifices are sometimes necessary and children need to learn that, too. Just that I know "guilt tripping" and appeals to "family" are a couple of the major N tools and we can seem to be doing the same thing to our children, when the N leaves us unfairly settled. Hopefully, it'll all end up meaning that you are as free of taint as possible. Maybe just keep your lines of communication open with him and no pressure to visit, just open invitation and the assurance that you care about him and are interested in him.

HI Dadda - I am sorry for all your troubles you are dealing with - the car and a job especially. Things can get pretty scary. I don't have any book recommendations for you but wanted to say I feel for you and hope it all gets better. Some of what you wrote rings true for me in terms of the N parent making their child dependent on them. I am dealing with being on the receiving end of this finally and it is not easy.

I take a lot of faith for myself in what you say about being forced back on your own resources and being able to surprise yourself. this is an adventure I realize I need to take now, disabilities and all.

I am going to have faith too that my higher power knows what I need and will help me get where I need to be. Things always have a way of working out though, don't they? I mean the day to day stuff.

Hi Dadda,
Just when you think dealing with the N is the worst you'll have to put up with,
your kids become infected with the N's BS as well.

A book that really opened my eyes was "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and
Dealing with Manipulative People". Don't let the cover throw you, it's a great
primer for those of us who don't get the manipulative mind set. And yes, tons
of kids are manipulative. It stands to reason that kids who are raised with N's
are going to be especially manipulative.

Also, I just started checking out this website, but it looks really good. There may
be some ideas on there as well. I too am seeking good ways not to get
bamboozled. Hang in there Dadda. (((( hugs )))))
The link:
http://counsellingresource.com/features/2008/11/19/covert-aggressive-personality/

You amaze me. As for the kids, they are at the stage that even in the most happy homes they can become rude, disrespectful and whatever. There is something about their behaviours that makes cutting the apron strings easier. hang in and have courage. Those sweet little babies are still in there somewhere. They will emerge again later.

Hi: thanks for the additional encouragement and also, Betty for the book and link. Hoping to check out all later. I was also looking for that book I talked about earlier (referring to a post on infidelity) about living out intergenerational dramas without knowing it. Couldn't find it yet, but not surprising, I have gotten the car operational again. The first cable I got didn't work, although the car would start so had to go back and get another. It was a touch and go process. The car was "sawed in half" and all the ground around and under it very soft. Jack kept sinking and so I couldn't get it on a stand, either. Had to find and move a lot of tires to brace the car from falling when working under it ... as the cable is mounted directly in the center with something like 3 or 4 blots. I get claustrophobic under cars when they are on stands, so it wasn't much fun to have my neck directly under where, if it fell, I knew I'd probably be dead ... or fairly quickly ... and as it was Saturday, I'd probably have lain there the whole weekend (since I got locked in last week). Not saying that to gross anyone out ... it was just the reality of the situation ... and what I am forced to do to just keep treading water. And by the way, hubby apparently has another car ... saw one over there for several weeks and saw him getting out the other day. Must be nice; he can't afford to pay me a dime (or he's refusing to) despite the negative consequences to me and I KNOW if the shoe was on the other foot, he probably would have had me in jail by now. So I am around, but trying to catch up. Too much stuff for one person to handle! Miss you all! But hope to catch up soon ... if not though, hope you all have a good and safe weekend.

PS wanted to let you know, too, my younger daughter got a job in a vet clinic and sounds pretty happy. I am glad of that and hopefully, she is on the road of healing and less interference with her emotions and stuff. I am painfully aware that even with my best intentions, the whole situation is hard on them, so we are keeping in touch and I am just trying to pray that only good people around her, etc. for her sake. I am trying to get some time to help my older daughter, too as she wants out of here, her finances are sort of messy. Yes, I know and that is the crux of the issue ... she needs to get healing and also, look at things and deal with them from a perspective of accountability and adult perspective. Unfortunately, a lot of pressure on her throughout childhood and especially the last couple years, to disregard sane thinking and wisdom and being so young and inexperienced, etc., she has fallen into the trap sprung by the other side. Anyone that cares to, prayers and suggestions for her and for me to have wisdom to help her, that is appreciated. Thanks!

Hang in there, friend. Glad to here of your younger daughter's new job. Working around the animals should help distract her from any stress in her own life. Something about being with animals really helps in that regard most times. Good luck with your older daughter and with the car issues. Know that we are all here supporting you in your long and varied struggles. I am particularly worried about you now that winter is fast approaching. I hope you get that car going before the bad winter sets in. Stock up on food that will keep for times when the weather is bad so that if that car breaks again, at least you will have food. Courage. And, multiple hugs coming your way.

I am sitting here and crying my eyes out. I have to get all this paperwork together and again, it's like what's the use? I know that no matter WHAT the judge decides, he is going to give me grief. I'm reviewing paperwork, including my transcripts. He tells me 1000 women would kill to have what I have had. Takes WEEKS to get him to agree to let me pick up kids at school on Friday and drop them at school on Monday morn ... because 1st, he'd want to meet me 2x (in the middle). Then he'd tell me I had to bring them to the middle spot on Sunday. I'd tell him NO, you can come get them, then. He's raise hell and tell me he couldn't drive there. I'd tell him that's too bad; it's neither my problem or responsibility. He'd hand up. Constant threats of Court action. It's amazing the stuff that gets "forgotten". Found a note one daughter had written to Court about how I wouldn't let her see her aunt ... who she had seen multiple times and I'd even allowed some extra out of my punt visitation. I'd let him pick them up for a few hours of visiting. But he kept egging them on ... how the other daughter told me I had told her Grandma I would kill them ... all I can think is that woman is a black-hearted evil liar and HOW have I managed to push all that stuff down and be a civilized human being, despite all the wrongs our kids and I endured. It's all on tape, too ... but nobody would ever listen when it might have done some good ... so I came back. And now I will probably have to fight to get anything (besides my personal property) just as I had to fight JUST to spend time with our children and I didn't even get to see them for two summers (except for one week, when he brought me here and then threw me out because I wasn't "nice" to his friend); the next summer he terrorized us and then started the Court stuff and just kept going with it.

Dadda, I am so sorry to hear about this trauma your ex and his
family are putting you through. I know it probably doesn't feel any
better to hear this, but he's likely just hoping you'll give up fighting for
what's yours. Creating needless drama and trauma is the name of
the game with these hollow nightmarish people.

And drawing the children into their web of lies and manipulation seems
par for the course as well. I'm dealing with that now as well, although
not in the heat of a court battle. It's gut wrenching to hear their lies
come out of the mouth of your child. I'm afraid children are the ultimate
weapon for narcs. Just remember it's not personal--this website has
a lot of personal accounts about narc enablers. It is religious (don't
know if that's an issue for you or not) but either way it is healing to
read the first hand accounts as a reality check-- that it's not you it's
them.

http://dealingwithtoxicpeople.blogspot.com/

I wish I knew what to say, had a magic wand to wave over this situation
so it'd vanish. All I know is that in times of high level of stress, it is so
important to take great care of yourself. Make a cup of tea, take a hot
bath, call a friend, watch a funny movie. I'll be keeping you in my
thoughts, please take care. Sending you lots of hugs (((( ))))))

Um Dadda, I was just wondering, can't your lawyer take on all this
bickering and mediate some of this stuff for you? It sounds like he is just
dragging his feet, maybe your lawyer can light a fire under his butt
and force him to settle.

Actually we are going to trial. I was reading that when someone screws up their dastardly plot, they sometimes like to do that hoping that things go better that way. But basically, not expecting anything. That has become "too good to be true". And LOL, we had a mediator in what feels like another lifetime ... but I guess it was only last year. I have been crying, listening to all these recordings, but I am really starting to "hear/see" the sick twists he uses to blame me for EVERYTHING. Hopefully, will catch on lots quicker in future. Plus, in a very few, I heard myself "blow up" but not lose it. Darn, If I was a man, I'd say I am a pretty reasonable woman overall, even in a fight (!!). I think I'm crying more for our children plus all the lost years AND the cowardice ... I mean, I REALLY feel like (for a while now) that we HAD to move out here 'cause they KNEW he would have trouble with marriage and had to have gangbangers to back him up against me. P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!

I heard a few where our daughters lost it, etc. I caught on a while back that if they spent time around him, they were likely to come home and start in on me. My younger daughter sent a text a bit ago and I have not wanted to bug her with communication all the time, (both have, when angry and upset threatened to never see/talk to either of us again. I know that expresses a lot of pain, but sort of touchy, you know? Trying to give space (cause, like I told her, I know what this scene is like and my "magic wand" no good). She sends one back "I didn't know you were ever bugging me". So maybe she walls that stuff off when emotions are normal. It was sort of nice to hear that, though ... was reading my journals earlier too and she'd said she likes having me for a mom because I'm "creative" and "into" the stuff she likes (from like 2003 or 2004). Lots of good memories with both as well as the sadness and I am mourning, of course, what I thought would be and what I thought was.

And I am trying to incorporate my faith into EVERY aspect of my life and thinking, I was reading some Proverbs last night and it was so on target as far as describing what happens walking down the N road. I read it in the beginning, too and it was sort of weird, because I didn't know about the PD aspect of things with him, but I was reading the parts talking about how a person that falls into adultery has already had some other things not resolved. It made sense. And it talked about how very few EVER "come back" (to life, not their spouse). Pretty sobering stuff, especially when seeing it and KNOWING his main problem is being too afraid to take that first step to look at himself. Seeing how afraid he claims to be of me controlling him, while it's his mother he's still with and I think that will be even after her death. VERY VERY sad. I am thankful to know I probably will not ever do our children that disservice and am standing up and saying out loud to them (well, not always to them, but a few subscriptions and comments on FB sprinkled through about normal and N relationships) that what we have gone through is NOT healthy or the way it needs or has to be. I know there is still plenty of syrupy sweet, lying sugar coating by his relatives and guessing at least MIL (I can only picture it, having heard it) badmouthing me.

I am SO looking forward to a funny movie! I don't even know what's out or a lot of other stuff. But close to "the end". So please, keep me in mind. I'm a bit nervous. And sad. Thanks (and there is a "smiley face" here even though you can't see it!)