Narcissist Trauma Survival and Recovery Community Group
Support for those anyone who is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist. Together we are much stronger than any of us would be alone. A place for non-judgemental mutial support, advice, and comfort.
I just had a mind flash ... stunning insight into something we have mentioned over time. How Ns "sense" or can tell "right before" we are getting ready to leave them ... Maybe it's not so sly as that, though ... maybe they can't "read" our minds or intentions ... maybe, they themselves PUT the idea there and therefore, they are merely anticipating what is to come? I don't know if this IS correct, but as I was reading this article, it seemed the ideas tumbled into place. If nothing else, food for thought.
Here is some info on one of the Ns "favorite" (highly used) defense mechanisms. This one concerns us all, as this is where the N puts things into your head. The N may not know it, you may not know it. But it happens; the more you are mindful of yourself mentally/emotionally, the more likely you are to "catch" these foreign ideas, urges and such and get them out of yourself.
"Projective identification differs from simple projection in that projective identification can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby a person, believing something false about another, relates to that other person in such a way that the other person alters their behavior to make the belief true. The second person is influenced by the projection and begins to behave as though he or she is in fact actually characterized by the projected thoughts or beliefs, a process that may happen outside the awareness of both parties involved."
"'Projective identification is frequently the major suffering of a wounded couple. Each member enacts the most ideal, dreaded, and primitive aspects of the other in a way that drives both partners crazy'.[8] The partners may have been initially chosen 'because of their willingness to carry idealized or devalued parts of the self': unfortunately 'what is projected into and rediscovered in the partner is then treated in the same way as it was treated in the self. What you cannot stand in yourself, you locate and attack (or nurture) in the other'." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification
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"Because Ns have no internal mechanism to cope with feeling shame, they tend to unload it onto their nearest and dearest. They get somebody else to do their dirty work. And when the stink of shame permeates their psychological house of cards, they will fumigate with a vengence. It just helped me a lot to understand that little mental sleight of hand, and to NOT take on those feelings that weren't even mine in the first place.
Every time I figured out one of those subtle abuse techniques, it was very empowering to me - I knew what was going on and I knew I was in control of myself and I wasn't nutz. I learned how to maintain my psychological boundaries and not get sucked in to a lot of crazy N-games." http://narcissism-support.blogspot.com/2009/01/projection-made-easy.html
(There is not a lot about projective identification as such on this page, but there are links to other helpful articles; this is a reference to the idea of "shame dumping" from the Sandy Hotchkiss book, "Why is it Always About You?")
Also, an important (I think) point made at the beginning of the article by the author:
"I , personally, have not spent a lot of time exploring the defence mechanisms that the disordered use. I know it is helpful to some, but to me psychologising someone, or yourself, when in a personal relationship, can backfire bigtime; it's easy to get tangled up in concepts that are typically difficult to understand in any depth, and lose sight of the fact that it will not help you cope or get out."
Projective identification is a difficult (for me, at least) concept to fully understand. Even therapists fall prey to it at times and start acting out and behaving after introjecting (taking into themself) the client's projection. Therefore, I am not recommending that you necessarily try to understand it fully as much as to have an appreciation that "such a thing" exists. Being mindful, you will more easily identify more blatant mind games, but more importantly, you will be able to notice times that you feel strange urges or compulsions or feel motivated to behave in ways that you are pretty certain are not "normal" for you. If you are already working with a therapist, you can bring this up in therapy and sort out "me" vs. "not me" there.
I will see what other information I can find to post. A lot of it (that I have found) is fairly technical and I figured most of us already have our hands and minds full, so I will try to keep to what is understandable/helpful.
Here is some info on one of the Ns "favorite" (highly used) defense mechanisms. This one concerns us all, as this is where the N puts things into your head. The N may not know it, you may not know it. But it happens; the more you are mindful of yourself mentally/emotionally, the more likely you are to "catch" these foreign ideas, urges and such and get them out of yourself.
"Projective identification differs from simple projection in that projective identification can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby a person, believing something false about another, relates to that other person in such a way that the other person alters their behavior to make the belief true. The second person is influenced by the projection and begins to behave as though he or she is in fact actually characterized by the projected thoughts or beliefs, a process that may happen outside the awareness of both parties involved."
"'Projective identification is frequently the major suffering of a wounded couple. Each member enacts the most ideal, dreaded, and primitive aspects of the other in a way that drives both partners crazy'.[8] The partners may have been initially chosen 'because of their willingness to carry idealized or devalued parts of the self': unfortunately 'what is projected into and rediscovered in the partner is then treated in the same way as it was treated in the self. What you cannot stand in yourself, you locate and attack (or nurture) in the other'." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_identification
*******************************
"Because Ns have no internal mechanism to cope with feeling shame, they tend to unload it onto their nearest and dearest. They get somebody else to do their dirty work. And when the stink of shame permeates their psychological house of cards, they will fumigate with a vengence. It just helped me a lot to understand that little mental sleight of hand, and to NOT take on those feelings that weren't even mine in the first place.
Every time I figured out one of those subtle abuse techniques, it was very empowering to me - I knew what was going on and I knew I was in control of myself and I wasn't nutz. I learned how to maintain my psychological boundaries and not get sucked in to a lot of crazy N-games." http://narcissism-support.blogspot.com/2009/01/projection-made-easy.html
(There is not a lot about projective identification as such on this page, but there are links to other helpful articles; this is a reference to the idea of "shame dumping" from the Sandy Hotchkiss book, "Why is it Always About You?")
Also, an important (I think) point made at the beginning of the article by the author:
"I , personally, have not spent a lot of time exploring the defence mechanisms that the disordered use. I know it is helpful to some, but to me psychologising someone, or yourself, when in a personal relationship, can backfire bigtime; it's easy to get tangled up in concepts that are typically difficult to understand in any depth, and lose sight of the fact that it will not help you cope or get out."
Projective identification is a difficult (for me, at least) concept to fully understand. Even therapists fall prey to it at times and start acting out and behaving after introjecting (taking into themself) the client's projection. Therefore, I am not recommending that you necessarily try to understand it fully as much as to have an appreciation that "such a thing" exists. Being mindful, you will more easily identify more blatant mind games, but more importantly, you will be able to notice times that you feel strange urges or compulsions or feel motivated to behave in ways that you are pretty certain are not "normal" for you. If you are already working with a therapist, you can bring this up in therapy and sort out "me" vs. "not me" there.
I will see what other information I can find to post. A lot of it (that I have found) is fairly technical and I figured most of us already have our hands and minds full, so I will try to keep to what is understandable/helpful.
"Projective identification differs from simple projection in that projective identification can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby a person, believing something false about another, relates to that other person in such a way that the other person alters their behavior to make the belief true. The second person is influenced by the projection and begins to behave as though he or she is in fact actually characterized by the projected thoughts or beliefs, a process that may happen outside the awareness of both parties involved."
I see this so often in children. They began to internalize the traits, actions, and beliefs that their parents project on to them with repeated phrases such as "you are my quiet one," or you are my problem child," or you can't do this or that". It is sad but the "labeling" often becomes a self-fullfilling mandate.
As for myself, I know that in the early years I would rant and rave back at him when he was raging. That is so far out of my true nature. I was just so frustrated from trying to reason with him that I became much like him in that way. Slowly, I took back control and became responsible for my own behavior. I could not change him but I could change the way I reacted to him. Hence, my 'No Contact When He Rages" policy of only listening to one or two statements, only responding with one or two consise statements, and then refusing to discuss the topic of contention again, but instead, insisting on agreeing to disagree. Previously, I did take on is methods of yelling back and forth . . . in a way, becoming the incoherent wierdo he said I was. I learned better coping techniques and the situation has gotten better . . . far from perafect, but much better. I am in control of my own actions and destiny.
"Projective identification differs from simple projection in that projective identification can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby a person, believing something false about another, relates to that other person in such a way that the other person alters their behavior to make the belief true. The second person is influenced by the projection and begins to behave as though he or she is in fact actually characterized by the projected thoughts or beliefs, a process that may happen outside the awareness of both parties involved."
If I understand this concept correctly, I see this so often in children. They began to internalize the traits, actions, and beliefs that their parents project on to them with repeated phrases such as "you are my quiet one," or you are my problem child," or you can't do this or that". It is sad but the "labeling" often becomes a self-fullfilling mandate.
As for myself, I know that in the early years I would rant and rave back at him when he was raging. That is so far out of my true nature. I was just so frustrated from trying to reason with him that I became much like him in that way. Slowly, I took back control and became responsible for my own behavior. I could not change him but I could change the way I reacted to him. Hence, my 'No Contact When He Rages" policy of only listening to one or two statements, only responding with one or two consise statements, and then refusing to discuss the topic of contention again, but instead, insisting on agreeing to disagree. Previously, I did take on his methods of yelling back and forth . . . in a way, becoming the incoherent wierdo he said I was. I learned better coping techniques and the situation has gotten better . . . far from perfect, but much better. I am in control of my own actions and destiny.
At times, you might "get" to contain and "be" the aggressor, other times, that is who he will have identified with more and you may get a glimpse into "his" experience as a youngster - being shocked into silence or fear, feeling terrified and wanting to run/hide. There is more complexity, but that is the basic jist going on -- it is an acting out or re-enactment.
And the other part of your observation is pretty much a "BINGO", BUT it does not have to be a negative, labeling type experience. There are variations in projective identification theories, BASICALLY - projective identification is the beginning point of EMPATHY. BUT, what the projector originally "puts into" the other, they are supposed to "take back the projection" (own it) after having the chance to see what the other "does with it". Normally in childhood, there is very simplistic, good/bad, black/white thinking (does that ring a bell regarding narcissism, anyone?).
Those of you with children can relate, especially. Remember when your child had "colic", just cranky and couldn't be consoled no matter what? And of course, their experience gets "inside" you as nothing works to soothe them (same as if they are in pain, etc). Eventually, you may actually feel angry upset and like you are going to lose your mind (at least I have). You don't do the things that would hurt your child to get them to be quiet. You pull out every ounce of patience and calm you possess and get through it, often numerous times. But you see how the child's internal experience in a sense becomes your own - you want to be rid of this feeling and the inability to do anything about it. As you are experiencing the other's experience, they are "watching" you to see how you do deal with it (the "bad" stuff, shame based stuff). Best case is the child "learns" that this painful and bad experience does not overwhelm mother; she models calm, patience, resilience and maybe some other positive coping mechanisms. When the child "takes back" their experience, they take it back WITH those positive things and with additional security: even if they "are bad" (as they "see it" at that stage), mother is still there and still cares. People with NPD never get to the stage of "taking back" (owning) their projections (their "bad" stuff). They were only found "acceptable" if they "remain" good, which is obviously, for a baby or child (or us?) impossible. So they never develop empathy because they have never had that experience of having their own negative moments and experiences dealt with compassionately and with "just that perspective"- that these are moments and experiences, not the definition of "him/her". They remain stuck in a split condition, where things (and people) are viewed in black/white, good/bad, either/or thinking; there is no depth or breadth to the thought processes. They never develop a complete, individual "self" - they have never separated from mother.
Some of the children may take on the "label" the parent/caregiver provides. This is still not developing a self, because there is a realization (survival instinct) that "living up to the label" provides them with a known quality of security, acceptance and so forth. To throw off the label means risking that the parent(s) will "throw off the child"; it's easier to sneak around and indulge secretly in "forbidden" behavior, but this is also split off for the N and not admitted into conscious experience. Maybe some of you (like me) have had the experience where the N claims or seems to have amnesiac episodes, often for rages or other unacceptable behavior?
But that's one reason why Livelifenow's response to her daughter is so good: she may not agree with her daughter wearing makeup completely, but she is ACKNOWLEDGING her daughter as a SEPARATE individual with DIFFERENT thoughts, values and so on than her own. Her daughter is not "an extension" of her. Since her daughter can feel safe showing mother "who she is", that trust relationship can grow and get strong and Livelifenow can help channel some of her daughter's differences, or counsel her, to help keep her from harm. She can't live her daughter's life for her and can't protect her from everything, but she can acknowledge her pretty much in entirety and be a positive influence and force. And her daughter is more likely to approach her mother, knowing that she can show Mom some sides she might not like or agree with, but Mom isn't taking those things and using them as the "complete definition" (and shame) of her daughter.
Hope to find more good explanatory stuff on this as I look round.
The other place where the two can be compared is that there is the in GROUP, which is where the N strives to position himself. Have you ever heard of the Lone Narcissist? There may be some seemingly operating in some "solitary" endeavor, but the norm would be for them to be "attached" to a group or an image just as they are still "attached" to mother, maybe the good mother they never found in reality. And that is one of the reasons they can apparently change loyalties without blinking an eye ... the ideals and principles of the group are never the main thing ... the success and prestige of the group is what attracts and holds them ... for as long as it lasts.