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I am just finishing an astounding book, which I believe addresses a lot of the worries we have about Ns and Ps, even though the book is not about that. I started to talk about this in another thread on the psychopath (P) forum. Here's the link to my comments there:
http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/victims-of-psychopaths-sociopaths/discussions/messages/17310829/page-3
I think this is so important I wanted to highlight it on both the N and P boards as a separate topic.
We wonder how we were so unlucky to get selected by the N or P in our lives (assuming it was not a relative). We want to know what they noticed about us that attracted them. We want to know how to see them sooner and more clearly so we can avoid more Ns and Ps in the future.
The book, Compelling People, by John Neffinger and Matthew Kohut, addresses these concerns, reading between the lines, and explicitly a couple of times where they mention Ns and Ps. Basically they say there are two main qualities to people's personality and they are somewhat opposite and on a spectrum of tradeoffs between them. The two qualities are "strength" and "warmth". Strength is often what attracted us to the N or P in our life, and I would say embodies at the extreme, things like charisma, intensity, animal magnetism, strong personality, confidence, controlling, manipulating, etc. The other dimension is warmth. Warmth embodies things like caring, empathy, inclusiveness, embracing (physical and metaphorical), and other connecting, feel-good emotions and qualities. Ns (mostly) and Ps (totally) can be viewed as having only strength with no warmth.
I believe victims of Ns and Ps either have mostly warmth, or show mostly warmth. I believe the Ns and Ps, without warmth, want that in their lives, so they pursue warm people, who tend to be giving people. (Though, we on this board know they also want what we can give them, LOL!)
If we have mostly warmth, and we are lower on strength, this results in our being vulnerable and not protected from the strong who would want to hurt us. Not all strong people want to hurt us, but I'm talking now about pathological Ns and Ps or other abusers (mostly Cluster B PDs) who do want to take advantage of us.
The book goes further into the topic of strength and weakness in a chapter on romantic relationships. In women in romantic relationships, the authors note, the opposite of strength is not warmth (which is complementary to strength and, as I understood it, desired by the strong in romantic relationships). Instead the opposite of strength is weakness in women in romantic relationships (which not apply in other areas of life, such is in professional life).
So, why do we maybe have lower strength? Well, we could have started out that way, as many in the caring professions and the more selfless may -- with high warmth, and less strength than those drawn to more exploitive professions or who are more selfish and self-focused. Or, we did have strength once upon a time, but were incessantly worn down by abusive Ns and Ps, that wore us often even to the extreme of learned helplessness, similar to what a brainwashed captive goes through. That certainly takes away our strength.
This latter way explains how so many formerly successful, confident, educated people still get ensnared by N and Ps. Sandra Brown, in her book, Women Who Love Psychopaths, devotes an entire section to why the personalities between Ps and victims were a match or a fit, even in seemingly strong, impervious victims. Additional factors contributing to actual or perceived weakness in successful people from high socioeconomic groups (upper class, especially) were also described in the book, Not To People Like Us: Hidden Abuse in Upscale Marriages, by Susan Weitzman. The Ns and Ps in our life have made us weaker. But these observations about strength and warmth (and weakness) seem universal, and I would think apply to all victims of Ns or Ps, men or women, gay or straight.
In thinking more about this, I think strong women involved with strong men in romantic relationships tend to hide and pull back on our strength so as not to outshine our men. We want them to feel and act in a strong masculine way. And they may not want us to feel or act in a strong way, seeing it as competitive, aggressive, emasculating, etc. They want us to be the "little woman" to some extent. So, it behooves both of us, to on the whole, even in this time of greater feminist initiative, to let him be the stronger guy. That might be OK, desirable even, with a non, but give a N or P an inch, and they'll take the entire circumference of the earth. Characters like Ns and Ps who win one up by pushing us down take advantage of this social and biological dynamic.
As I said in the thread I referenced above (see link above in this comment), this book can help us see what it looks like in daily life to show strong vs warm traits. This book is like a manual, guiding us through this process. We could learn to see too extreme or too many strength traits untempered by warmth. That will identify Ns, Ps, or those too much like them. We could learn how to better hide our warm traits, and emphasize more strong ones to better protect ourselves and make ourselves less appealing to Ns and Ps. Even if we're not feeling strong, we can learn to look strong. (This tactic also reminds me of earlier posts about getting approached in public by Ns and Ps. Looking stronger might stop that.)
Thinking back on it, I am a strong woman who was outgoing and confident socially and successful professionally. If you had asked me before reading this book, am I more strong or warm? I would have said both, but more strong. However, I saw in the book that I either am more warm, or I show myself as more warm, and sometimes in my marriage to a N/P, weak. As we know, fatal error. I know I pulled back on my strength to maintain his male pride and not emasculate him, especially when I began to succeed and he, due to his N/P weaknesses, began to fail. I may not be the only one who faced this dynamic and made these kinds of choices.
If we want to avoid being victims, we have to learn to make better, more informed choices. I think this book will be an immense help to those of us looking for answers to these problems.
http://www.dailystrength.org/groups/victims-of-psychopaths-sociopaths/discussions/messages/17310829/page-3
I think this is so important I wanted to highlight it on both the N and P boards as a separate topic.
We wonder how we were so unlucky to get selected by the N or P in our lives (assuming it was not a relative). We want to know what they noticed about us that attracted them. We want to know how to see them sooner and more clearly so we can avoid more Ns and Ps in the future.
The book, Compelling People, by John Neffinger and Matthew Kohut, addresses these concerns, reading between the lines, and explicitly a couple of times where they mention Ns and Ps. Basically they say there are two main qualities to people's personality and they are somewhat opposite and on a spectrum of tradeoffs between them. The two qualities are "strength" and "warmth". Strength is often what attracted us to the N or P in our life, and I would say embodies at the extreme, things like charisma, intensity, animal magnetism, strong personality, confidence, controlling, manipulating, etc. The other dimension is warmth. Warmth embodies things like caring, empathy, inclusiveness, embracing (physical and metaphorical), and other connecting, feel-good emotions and qualities. Ns (mostly) and Ps (totally) can be viewed as having only strength with no warmth.
I believe victims of Ns and Ps either have mostly warmth, or show mostly warmth. I believe the Ns and Ps, without warmth, want that in their lives, so they pursue warm people, who tend to be giving people. (Though, we on this board know they also want what we can give them, LOL!)
If we have mostly warmth, and we are lower on strength, this results in our being vulnerable and not protected from the strong who would want to hurt us. Not all strong people want to hurt us, but I'm talking now about pathological Ns and Ps or other abusers (mostly Cluster B PDs) who do want to take advantage of us.
The book goes further into the topic of strength and weakness in a chapter on romantic relationships. In women in romantic relationships, the authors note, the opposite of strength is not warmth (which is complementary to strength and, as I understood it, desired by the strong in romantic relationships). Instead the opposite of strength is weakness in women in romantic relationships (which not apply in other areas of life, such is in professional life).
So, why do we maybe have lower strength? Well, we could have started out that way, as many in the caring professions and the more selfless may -- with high warmth, and less strength than those drawn to more exploitive professions or who are more selfish and self-focused. Or, we did have strength once upon a time, but were incessantly worn down by abusive Ns and Ps, that wore us often even to the extreme of learned helplessness, similar to what a brainwashed captive goes through. That certainly takes away our strength.
This latter way explains how so many formerly successful, confident, educated people still get ensnared by N and Ps. Sandra Brown, in her book, Women Who Love Psychopaths, devotes an entire section to why the personalities between Ps and victims were a match or a fit, even in seemingly strong, impervious victims. Additional factors contributing to actual or perceived weakness in successful people from high socioeconomic groups (upper class, especially) were also described in the book, Not To People Like Us: Hidden Abuse in Upscale Marriages, by Susan Weitzman. The Ns and Ps in our life have made us weaker. But these observations about strength and warmth (and weakness) seem universal, and I would think apply to all victims of Ns or Ps, men or women, gay or straight.
In thinking more about this, I think strong women involved with strong men in romantic relationships tend to hide and pull back on our strength so as not to outshine our men. We want them to feel and act in a strong masculine way. And they may not want us to feel or act in a strong way, seeing it as competitive, aggressive, emasculating, etc. They want us to be the "little woman" to some extent. So, it behooves both of us, to on the whole, even in this time of greater feminist initiative, to let him be the stronger guy. That might be OK, desirable even, with a non, but give a N or P an inch, and they'll take the entire circumference of the earth. Characters like Ns and Ps who win one up by pushing us down take advantage of this social and biological dynamic.
As I said in the thread I referenced above (see link above in this comment), this book can help us see what it looks like in daily life to show strong vs warm traits. This book is like a manual, guiding us through this process. We could learn to see too extreme or too many strength traits untempered by warmth. That will identify Ns, Ps, or those too much like them. We could learn how to better hide our warm traits, and emphasize more strong ones to better protect ourselves and make ourselves less appealing to Ns and Ps. Even if we're not feeling strong, we can learn to look strong. (This tactic also reminds me of earlier posts about getting approached in public by Ns and Ps. Looking stronger might stop that.)
Thinking back on it, I am a strong woman who was outgoing and confident socially and successful professionally. If you had asked me before reading this book, am I more strong or warm? I would have said both, but more strong. However, I saw in the book that I either am more warm, or I show myself as more warm, and sometimes in my marriage to a N/P, weak. As we know, fatal error. I know I pulled back on my strength to maintain his male pride and not emasculate him, especially when I began to succeed and he, due to his N/P weaknesses, began to fail. I may not be the only one who faced this dynamic and made these kinds of choices.
If we want to avoid being victims, we have to learn to make better, more informed choices. I think this book will be an immense help to those of us looking for answers to these problems.
But this Board is so helpful. I cannot thank everyone here enough for sharing their experiences and giving much needed advice.
Ii've read your post. I do agree with everything you posted about the strength versus warmth.
My XN had charisma. I still miss the person I thought he was. However, the N shows strength but that is fiction. The strength the N shows is not reality.
When I read your post, I do see myself as a warm person and I see how he was attracted to me as I was to him. He was smart, we had such intelligectual conversations. But, I was stronger than he was. The N crumbles when confronted which is why I escaped.
Maybe, I was stronger than I thought I was. Or maybe, the N crumbles when confronted.
I owned a bar and much like this farm I have, I did it all. Bartender, bouncer and I was good at my job. I kicked the ex out of my bar at least once and wouldn't give him the time of day. He had to dump the drunks he was running with and change his attitude to get me to even look at him. That was my mistake to think he was better than I thought and yes, he married me for MY strength and because I didn't panic and could handle things. His words much later in our marriage and not mine. No where did he say he married me for love but he used I love you often.
Yes I still have trouble deciding about the strength of Ns. On the one hand, their personal power, magnetism, and charisma seems SO strong. On the other, mine too crumbled when faced. I was stronger, and his strength may have been false. But there is more to it than that, as he seems very resilient and always lands of his feet, whereas I was thrown for a loop. In the end, I won by using his strength against him and stopping being warm at all.
I just noticed it in terms of "arguments" and the stonewalling ... a lot of the time, in past, I would come forward and make peace rather than spend days on days with the silent treatment, etc. I'm sure there are times that CAN be the best policy, even when a person is totally in the right, but it became a habit over time. And of course, that is merely ONE example. I think I was finally "getting it" when I had one of those monologues in front of his stonewalling self ... I just started talking about how a DECENT (strong, principled) MAN would respond, even if he was angry .... he could realize, for example, that his partner might not know as much, might have gotten onto the wrong track, might be depressed or some other difficulty ... as he sat there, continuing his stonewalling, I merely came to realize that I was, pretty much, all the things I was describing ... and he just continued to sit there ... nursing grudges from a decade before that I didn't even know existed ... holding onto his anger and whatever else to justify himself ... definitely NOT strength. But for sheer stubbornness ... I can be pretty stubborn (I prefer to call it tenacity, in my case LOL :-)) but I can't begin to hold a candle to his ... there just aren't that many things in life worth it, to me, other than some certain few but strong principles.
All I know about the charisma, etc is that sure, he can turn it on and use it on many, who respond, and so can his mother, but over time and I think as I was maturing or seeing things differently, their "warmth" really seemed shallow, as did most relationships. But when someone, like when I called him on his lies, there was no more ... oh, to a certain extent as he sought to play me or get info by "being nice" but I had my sister-in-law's warning and took it to heart ... "don't trust him" and learned that he could be holding a metaphorical knife to my back at the same time he was "making nice" to my face ...
Personally, I guess I like people who can be a bit crotchety at times ... LOL in a way, cause it also makes me nervous ... I guess what I mean is that I just prefer people who are genuine ... sometimes it is hard to tell ... but I like it when I know someone and we can disagree, debate, hold a different viewpoint but still get along ... and enjoy spending time together.