I was going to catch up and the first thing I read was what Coffeecupgirl wrote about how she was feeling. I noticed some interesting stuff about her post - the first one and wanted to mention it as I am sure many of us can relate to her feelings. Even the title - what is wrong with me - and then going on to describe the experience makes it sound like what she was going through wasn't "normal". For her, anyway. Yet she was looking at it and trying to make sense of it ... I've had the experience of it being that time of the month (which never good at keeping track), and I'm feeling really tired, out of sorts and then all of a sudden, it clicks in and there is a big, "Oh!" and relief. Maybe that one hits some of you, too ... yes, I saw I am in good company and that was cool to have picked up on and mentioned as possibility, KassandraDee!

One of the BIGGEST defenses (and primitive, or on the very immature side, developmentally speaking) used by people with strong (unhealthy) narcissism is "Projective Identification". People with borderline personality disorder are more mature in terms of their defenses, so when this PI hits, it is likely to cause a great deal of confusion in the person who it is directed at. I've looked at a lot of material on it and it is hard to really describe in a really simple fashion to make it easily understood (clinically relevant – yet theoretically enigmatic – process of projective identification; this is a description from a web site FOR mental health professionals!). But some good "clues" from Coffeecupgirl's post:

I can't handle things!!! (Fear)
I'm feeling insecure and jealous of his past (Fear)
I was just distant and pretty much ran off. (Detachment; a big N thing)
I don't feel like I'm ready for a relationship (Fear)
I cant stand that he has been married twice before and has children with them both and (multiple) exes
I'm feeling all insecure like I'm not really his type (Fear)
he probably isnt really attracted to me. (Fear)
I feel so pissed and angry (N rage)
(I) want to shove him the HELL away from me!!! (Fear)
I feel like I don't want or deserve anyone (Some Detachment and fear)
No one could ever really love me or want me (Fear)
I will never be good enough or measure up!! (Fear)
I don't know if it's me or it's him or if it's just always going to be this way. (Your confusion in the 1st part and his Fear in the 2nd)
I can't imagine ever not feeling this way/insecure/jealous/etc (his disowned (Detachment) experience)

Now, I might not have that 100%, but I was doing some reading last night on psychoanalytically based or object based relational theories. It was overwhelming; I came here to post but couldn't get through it. But I copied and pasted Coffeecupgirl's exact post and just removed words. What is reflected here? The TWO primary emotions of narcissism ... FEAR and RAGE. N's don't have a "separate" genuine self, so the only options for "relationship" is FUSION (where they see you as part of themself) or DETACHMENT.
I really allowed my ex N to squash my self esteem (your recognition of similar, previous experience and its effects on you - pushing the REAL you away and down by putting their unresolved drama onto and into you)


So, basically, I just want to point out how lovely this posting is in identifying the process of PI. You are "GIVEN" the feelings and experiences the N has split off (they are unconscious to him/her). Normally, (and this is "normal" at six months of age; by eight months, an infant is beginning to be capable of "taking back" projected material and becoming more integrated and capable of developing a separate self from the mother, over the course of the following months.) The way that Coffeecupgirl talks about the experience makes it pretty clear that internally (for her) this is NOT "business as usual" ... where her head normally goes. She MAY identify in general, just that the experience is WAY more intense and foreign than any normal reactions she is capable of remembering. Also, her looking for rational reasons for the experience just points out a higher developmental level ... this is seen as "a problem" but with a solution. And making the connection with the previous N involvement ...

Coffeecupgirl, I want to say this to you, directly: I think you did a FANTASTIC job dealing with the situation and I am guessing that it felt completely overwhelming, as it unfolded. You were conscious of the experience and compare it with your previous experiences. You were able to suppress (a mature defense) it and have a great time, but then come back to it and whatever else associated with it and try to work toward resolution. And finally, you did not "own" the experience, you gave it back, rejected it, whatever ... and got yourself free. And as you so very nicely pointed out, you could have "kept it" and ended up losing yourself again ... and to what degree? I wish that we could get more GOOD info about this process ... it almost all takes place on the unconscious level, when it is pathological ... when a person works through it normally and the process is used in adult life, it is this:

The person who can tell a story, using their body, and the nuances of voice and facial expression, to make you feel like you are living the story they are telling ... you can feel your own body responding ... maybe tears in your eyes, stirred passions or goosebumps on your arms ... but you know what is going on and there is no confusion. In pathological PI, a story (that has never been resolved) is "being told" but it is "made" to be your story ... the N somehow becoming the audience and sometimes the actor in his/her own experience ... but not capable of either recognizing that it is about them OR able to keep from doing it to those who become "part of them".

I am just going to wrap up by a few things I read in various articles, maybe to make you realize that it is a serious phenomenon and even poorly understood by experts, maybe not understood AT ALL if you go with a purely biologically based or another therapist who doesn't use psychodynamic (developmental) theories as a basis of understanding possible foundation for current distress.

"In two seminal papers, Klein conjectured that defensive projective identification is associated with the massive invasion of someone else’s personality (1955) and represents an evacuation of unwanted parts of the self (1946). "

"Boyer describes a group of patients who have experienced an early defective relationship with the mother that results in a grossly deficient ego structure. Their excessive use of projective identification:

...very heavily influences their relationships with others as well as their psychic equilibrium. Their principal conscious goal in therapy is to relieve themselves immediately of tension. Often they greatly fear that the experience of discomfort is intolerable and believe that failure to rid themselves of it will lead to physical or mental fragmentation or dissolution (1990, p. 304)."

"What is projected most often is an intolerable, painful, or dangerous idea or belief about the self that the projecting person cannot accept (i.e. "I have behaved wrongly" or "I have a sexual feeling towards ..." )"

"Basically it breaks down like this: What we hate in ourselves, and even what we expect of people based on previous relationships – we project onto others. We take it a step further and call it projective identification when the person we are projecting onto subconsciously ‘becomes’ those projections, in a sense losing their own self-identity. It is the epitome of the self-fulfilling prophecy. For example: I am in a new relationship, and I am insecure and have bouts of jealousy – but I feel shame about this aspect of myself so I hide this truth from my partner. Sometimes people project what they hate about themselves onto others. So, in this case, to soothe my own insecurity I would accuse my significant other of insecurity, and of being jealous – literally attempting to shed my own shame and place it on someone else so I don’t have to deal with it. Much of this can be subconscious from both parties. Projective identification would be complete if my significant other, due to being cast in this light by me, then begins to show symptoms of insecurity and jealousy in the relationship. In a way, I just molded this person into something I fear about myself. It is a form of brainwashing, and it happens quite often in relationships that are dealing with sophisticated abuse. If both parties have low self-awareness, and are unable to ‘catch’ this covert manipulation – it can completely destroy people’s self-esteem, and self-worth. The victim is made to believe they are the one to blame, the one who needs help, and the one who is wrong. Narcissists, sociopaths, and Cluster B personalities are renowned for this high form of coercion. Therapists who treat individuals who use projective identification disclose that in moments during therapy they feel themselves talking differently, acting differently, and taking on the ‘traits’ that the abusive individual is projecting onto them."

"For example, the earliest relationship the infant has with its mother is feeding and
touching, but the mother is not always able to respond quickly enough to the infant's need.
Since the natural rage and longing the infant feels at such times are intolerable, to survive
these feelings the infant "splits them off" and represses them from its
consciousness. The "split off"feelings can be thought of as other parts of the self (ego).

When such splitting takes place, the infant is free of the rage but has placed that part of
itself inside the mother. To make itself whole again it must identify with the mother. The
mother may or may not allow herself to become the cntainer for the infant's negative
feelings. Even if she doesn't, the projective identification still occurs.

The above process begins in the first half year of life, known as the paranoid-schizoid
position. It is characterized by an ability to distinguish good feelings from bad, but an
inability to distinguish the mother from the self.

Depending on how consistent the mothering is, the infant may or may not progress to a
higher level of development known as the depressive position. In the depressive position,
which starts at about eight months of age, the child takes back its bad feelings from the
mother and separates from her. The mother is now seen as a separate object, with both
good and bad feelings of her own. The infant is aware of its own good and bad feelings.

For a child to reach this level of development, the earlier mothering must be consistent.
The mother must have accepted most of the child's projected feelings. A child who reaches
the depressive position will, in adulthood, be capable of experiencing, at best, such
feelings as empathy, or will at least become neurotic.

In contrast, if the mothering is not consistent, the child can't take back its projected
feelings and splitting continues both inside and outside the child. It remains in the
paranoid-schizoid position or, at best, a precarious form of the depressive position. This
type of development is associated with borderline personalities.

In the above infant-mother example, the repressed parts of the self, if unresolved, will
remain repressed into adulthood. Those parts will govern the choice of marital partner and
the nature of marital relationships, and by extension the nature of relationships with
children."