Narcissist Trauma Survival and Recovery Community Group
Support for those anyone who is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist. Together we are much stronger than any of us would be alone. A place for non-judgemental mutial support, advice, and comfort.
NPD info from TX attorney site, additional good in
dadda11o
I was looking over an attorney site today and found some things that describe some common PDs and mental illnesses and how they can be handled (well) by attorneys ... and clients. Thought there might be some good reminders or tips in there for those going through or expecting to be going through divorce ... never easy with N, but probably a bit easier the more accurate info and preparation you have. Although this is a Texas firm and laws vary from state to state, pertinent case law is often cited from other states ... and these are more "guidelines" and info so should be pretty much applicable anywhere ... or definitely provide some material for you to check with your attorney or consider as you move forward. A lot of additional helpful articles at the site:
http://www.gbfamilylaw.com/CM/Articles/The-Mentally-Incompetent-Party.asp
Narcissistic Personality - Would You Like To Bask In My Light? I Thought So.
DSM IV CRITERIA: The DSM IV describes the narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) as a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and presents in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love;
Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions);
Requires excessive admiration;
Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations;
Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends;
Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others;
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her;
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
DESCRIPTION AND SYMPTOMS: The interpersonal relationships of persons with NPD are typically impaired due to their lack of empathy, disregard for others, exploitativeness, sense of entitlement, and constant need for attention (called "Narcissistic Supply"). Individuals with NPD typically fall into two categories. The NPD individual may be "cerebral" and derive their Narcissistic Supply from their intelligence or academic achievements. Or, the NPD individual may be "somatic" and derive their Narcissistic Supply from their physique, exercise, physical or sexual prowess and romantic or physical "conquests". The NPD may be either overbearing or charming and seductive. The NPD assumes that everyone else will accept their point of view and they will not hesitate to use gross or subtle coercion to achieve their goals. The individual with NPD will tend to blame others for any relationship or business problems and attempt to avoid looking at their own contribution. Individuals with NPD feel injured, humiliated and empty when criticized. They often react with disdain, rage, and defiance to any slight, real or imagined.
NPD symptoms may include:
Believing that you're better than others;
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness;
Exaggerating your achievements or talents;
Expecting constant praise and admiration;
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly;
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings;
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans;
Taking advantage of others;
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior;
Being jealous of others;
Believing that others are jealous of you;
Trouble keeping healthy relationships;
Setting unrealistic goals;
Being easily hurt and rejected;
Having a fragile self-esteem;
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional.
NARCISSISTS WE HAVE KNOWN, LOVED OR FEARED: Many of the most famous narcissists have been convicted of committing murder. They include O.J. Simpson, Ted Bundy, and Scott Peterson.
CAUSES: It is commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers.
COURSE: The onset of pathological narcissism begins in infancy, childhood and early adolescence. The course is variable and often prolonged. There appears to be no good data on the course of NPD.
PREVALENCE: Between 0.5-1% of the general population are diagnosed with NPD.
MALE V. FEMALE: Overwhelmingly, most narcissists are men. The percentage may be as high as 75%.
CO-MORBIDITY: NPD is often diagnosed with other personality disorders, such as the HPD, BPD, paranoid, and antisocial personality disorder.
DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT: The prognosis for an adult suffering from NPD is poor, though his adaptation to life and to others can improve with treatment. The common treatment for patients with NPD is talk therapy. Talk therapy is used to modify the narcissist's antisocial, interpersonally exploitative, and dysfunctional behaviors, often with some success. Medication is prescribed to control and ameliorate attendant conditions such as mood disorders.
AFFECT ON MARRIAGE AND PARENTING: When the narcissist reveals his true colors, it is usually far too late. His victims are unable to separate from him. They are frustrated by this acquired helplessness and angry at themselves for having failed to see through the narcissist earlier on. A spouse and parent with NPD often treats their spouse and child the same - idealizes them at first and then devalues them in favor of alternative, safer and more subservient, sources. Such treatment is traumatic and can have long-lasting emotional effects. The inability of the parent with NPD to acknowledge and abide by the personal boundaries set by others puts the child at heightened risk of abuse - verbal, emotional, physical, and, often, sexual. The narcissist's possessiveness and negative emotions, such as rage and envy - hinder the individual's ability to act as a proper parent. The NPD individual's propensities for reckless behaviour, substance abuse, and sexual deviance may also endanger the child's welfare, or even his or her life.
REPRESENTING AND DEFENDING AGAINST THE NPD CLIENT: The party with the NPD has a sense of entitlement that is endless and the other party will be maligned and disparaged. In the mind of the narcissist, the other party is worthless and deserves nothing. The narcissist will be vindictive and often stalks and harasses the other party. The narcissist makes a divorce the battleground and their spouse the enemy. There are two primary ways of coping with the vindictive narcissist in a custody case. The first method is to frighten them by exposing their lies and embarrassing them. If sufficiently deterred - the narcissist may disengage and give up everything they were fighting for and sometimes make amends. The other method is to neutralize the narcissist by offering them continued Narcissistic Supply until the war is over.
Behaviors to Expect from NPD Clients: Clients with NPD will engage in the following types of behavior:
Difficulty in understanding a different point of view.
Will take any experience of defeat as humiliating and may express and want retaliation.
React negatively to anything they perceive as criticism.
Can have a sense of entitlement that has to be fed and handled.
Prone to exaggerate the facts.
Dislike any reality testing.
May want to manipulate and exploit others.
May be difficult to get along with.
Can litigate or be violent when they feel slighted.
How to Manage Clients with NPD: In working with the NPD client:
Ask them to use their "good intelligence" to understand another person's point of view or need.
Acknowledge their minor accomplishments, even if they are routine.
Try to avoid or minimize the concept of win-lose in the divorce process.
Be aware of the vulnerability and poor sense of self-worth that lies underneath their confident surface.
Minimize the extent to which you can achieve their idealized and expected goals.
Require facts and corroborating evidence in order to verify their exaggerations.
Set out the limitations of family law and make sure they understand you.
Use confrontation sensitively, be very specific and gentle.
Don't argue with them.
Flatter their idea but explain why it might not produce the result wanted.
Firing them needs to be done delicately.
Preparing Your Client for Dealing with the NPD in a Court of Law: The following are some pointers for the client dealing with the NPD spouse in the family law court:
Take an assertive approach.
Quickly provide credible factual information to the court.
Try to be as perfect as possible in every way during the court process. You don't want to give the NPD spouse something to legitimately use against you.
Prepare for the lies. Have an answer. You may have the truth on your side, but your spouse has no empathy and will destroy you with lies.
Expose the false statements and serious misbehaviors of the NPD party with credible evidence.
Do not be emotional during the court process. Emotions in family court can be seen as a sign of a psychological problem.
Find a way to make sure your narcissist is getting something out of the negotiations that they want. They have to feel they are winning. If they feel like they are losing, the litigation will continue and be used as revenge.
How to Defend Against the Opposing Party with NPD:
Expose the Lies of the Narcissist: It is possible to "break" a narcissist, even a well-trained and prepared one if you and your client are prepared. Narcissists are superhuman in their capacity to distort reality by offering highly "plausible" alternative scenarios, which fit most of the facts. It is essential to be equipped with absolutely unequivocal, first rate, thoroughly authenticated and vouched for information. The following actions can be used to expose the lies of the narcissist:
Ask your client to outline the narcissist's lies and distortions of fact for you. The client needs to be as specific as possible. You need to know dates, locations, times and the names of the persons that can provide information on each lie.
Take each lie and look for how the lie leads to another and another. Because the narcissist has been lying for years, they are not likely to have taken the steps to conceal their lies or realize that one lie begets another lie.
As you are gathering and outlining the lies, be careful how much you reveal to the opposing attorney. Often the opposing attorney will not realize that their client is a full-blown narcissist and lying and distorting the facts until much later. You will have a better opportunity to collect the evidence you need to expose the narcissist's lies if the opposing attorney has not yet discovered that their client is liar.
Work with your client on the sources from which you can gather documents to reveal the lies and distortions of fact.
Ask the opposing counsel for releases so you can get documents directly from a source - if the opposing attorney does not yet know what you are looking for, they may be more likely to provide you with the releases.
Send a request for production of documents to gather documents from the narcissist.
Draft interrogatories that you know the narcissist will not be able to resist providing untruthful answers to and for which you have evidence to demonstrate that the answer is a lie.
Draft a request for admissions that you also know the narcissist will not be able to resist providing untruthful answers to and for which you have evidence to demonstrate that the answer is a lie.
Identify and interview witnesses that can demonstrate the narcissist is lying. Get the witnesses to provide you with a written statement about the facts they know.
If the parties are involved in a custody evaluation, you will want to outline the lies for the evaluator and then provide the evaluator with the documents to reveal the lies. Also, provide the evaluator with the witness statements.
Provoke the Narcissist: The narcissist reacts with narcissistic rage, hatred, aggression, or violence to an infringement of what he perceives to be his entitlement. Any insinuation or hint that the narcissist is not special will often result in the narcissist losing control and exposing their true colors. The narcissist finds the following devastating:
Any statement or fact, which seems to contradict their inflated perception of their grandiose self.
Any criticism, disagreement, exposure of fake achievements, belittling of "talents and skills" which the narcissist fantasizes that he possesses, any hint that he is subordinated, subjugated, controlled, owned or dependent upon a third party.
Any description of the narcissist as average and common, indistinguishable from many others.
Any hint that the narcissist is weak, needy, dependent, deficient, slow, not intelligent, naive, gullible, susceptible, not in the know, manipulated, and/or a victim.
The narcissist may lose control if you state to them:
That he does not deserve the best treatment.
That his needs are not everyone's priority.
That he is boring, that his requirements can be catered to by an average practitioner (medical doctor, accountant, lawyer, psychiatrist).
That he and his motives are transparent and can be easily gauged, that he will do what he is told.
That his temper tantrums will not be tolerated.
That no special concessions will be made to accommodate his inflated sense of self.
That, like everyone else, he is subject to court procedures, etc.
http://www.gbfamilylaw.com/CM/Articles/The-Mentally-Incompetent-Party.asp
Narcissistic Personality - Would You Like To Bask In My Light? I Thought So.
DSM IV CRITERIA: The DSM IV describes the narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) as a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and presents in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love;
Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions);
Requires excessive admiration;
Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations;
Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends;
Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others;
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her;
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
DESCRIPTION AND SYMPTOMS: The interpersonal relationships of persons with NPD are typically impaired due to their lack of empathy, disregard for others, exploitativeness, sense of entitlement, and constant need for attention (called "Narcissistic Supply"). Individuals with NPD typically fall into two categories. The NPD individual may be "cerebral" and derive their Narcissistic Supply from their intelligence or academic achievements. Or, the NPD individual may be "somatic" and derive their Narcissistic Supply from their physique, exercise, physical or sexual prowess and romantic or physical "conquests". The NPD may be either overbearing or charming and seductive. The NPD assumes that everyone else will accept their point of view and they will not hesitate to use gross or subtle coercion to achieve their goals. The individual with NPD will tend to blame others for any relationship or business problems and attempt to avoid looking at their own contribution. Individuals with NPD feel injured, humiliated and empty when criticized. They often react with disdain, rage, and defiance to any slight, real or imagined.
NPD symptoms may include:
Believing that you're better than others;
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness;
Exaggerating your achievements or talents;
Expecting constant praise and admiration;
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly;
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings;
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans;
Taking advantage of others;
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior;
Being jealous of others;
Believing that others are jealous of you;
Trouble keeping healthy relationships;
Setting unrealistic goals;
Being easily hurt and rejected;
Having a fragile self-esteem;
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional.
NARCISSISTS WE HAVE KNOWN, LOVED OR FEARED: Many of the most famous narcissists have been convicted of committing murder. They include O.J. Simpson, Ted Bundy, and Scott Peterson.
CAUSES: It is commonly attributed to childhood abuse and trauma inflicted by parents, authority figures, or even peers.
COURSE: The onset of pathological narcissism begins in infancy, childhood and early adolescence. The course is variable and often prolonged. There appears to be no good data on the course of NPD.
PREVALENCE: Between 0.5-1% of the general population are diagnosed with NPD.
MALE V. FEMALE: Overwhelmingly, most narcissists are men. The percentage may be as high as 75%.
CO-MORBIDITY: NPD is often diagnosed with other personality disorders, such as the HPD, BPD, paranoid, and antisocial personality disorder.
DIAGNOSIS AND TREATMENT: The prognosis for an adult suffering from NPD is poor, though his adaptation to life and to others can improve with treatment. The common treatment for patients with NPD is talk therapy. Talk therapy is used to modify the narcissist's antisocial, interpersonally exploitative, and dysfunctional behaviors, often with some success. Medication is prescribed to control and ameliorate attendant conditions such as mood disorders.
AFFECT ON MARRIAGE AND PARENTING: When the narcissist reveals his true colors, it is usually far too late. His victims are unable to separate from him. They are frustrated by this acquired helplessness and angry at themselves for having failed to see through the narcissist earlier on. A spouse and parent with NPD often treats their spouse and child the same - idealizes them at first and then devalues them in favor of alternative, safer and more subservient, sources. Such treatment is traumatic and can have long-lasting emotional effects. The inability of the parent with NPD to acknowledge and abide by the personal boundaries set by others puts the child at heightened risk of abuse - verbal, emotional, physical, and, often, sexual. The narcissist's possessiveness and negative emotions, such as rage and envy - hinder the individual's ability to act as a proper parent. The NPD individual's propensities for reckless behaviour, substance abuse, and sexual deviance may also endanger the child's welfare, or even his or her life.
REPRESENTING AND DEFENDING AGAINST THE NPD CLIENT: The party with the NPD has a sense of entitlement that is endless and the other party will be maligned and disparaged. In the mind of the narcissist, the other party is worthless and deserves nothing. The narcissist will be vindictive and often stalks and harasses the other party. The narcissist makes a divorce the battleground and their spouse the enemy. There are two primary ways of coping with the vindictive narcissist in a custody case. The first method is to frighten them by exposing their lies and embarrassing them. If sufficiently deterred - the narcissist may disengage and give up everything they were fighting for and sometimes make amends. The other method is to neutralize the narcissist by offering them continued Narcissistic Supply until the war is over.
Behaviors to Expect from NPD Clients: Clients with NPD will engage in the following types of behavior:
Difficulty in understanding a different point of view.
Will take any experience of defeat as humiliating and may express and want retaliation.
React negatively to anything they perceive as criticism.
Can have a sense of entitlement that has to be fed and handled.
Prone to exaggerate the facts.
Dislike any reality testing.
May want to manipulate and exploit others.
May be difficult to get along with.
Can litigate or be violent when they feel slighted.
How to Manage Clients with NPD: In working with the NPD client:
Ask them to use their "good intelligence" to understand another person's point of view or need.
Acknowledge their minor accomplishments, even if they are routine.
Try to avoid or minimize the concept of win-lose in the divorce process.
Be aware of the vulnerability and poor sense of self-worth that lies underneath their confident surface.
Minimize the extent to which you can achieve their idealized and expected goals.
Require facts and corroborating evidence in order to verify their exaggerations.
Set out the limitations of family law and make sure they understand you.
Use confrontation sensitively, be very specific and gentle.
Don't argue with them.
Flatter their idea but explain why it might not produce the result wanted.
Firing them needs to be done delicately.
Preparing Your Client for Dealing with the NPD in a Court of Law: The following are some pointers for the client dealing with the NPD spouse in the family law court:
Take an assertive approach.
Quickly provide credible factual information to the court.
Try to be as perfect as possible in every way during the court process. You don't want to give the NPD spouse something to legitimately use against you.
Prepare for the lies. Have an answer. You may have the truth on your side, but your spouse has no empathy and will destroy you with lies.
Expose the false statements and serious misbehaviors of the NPD party with credible evidence.
Do not be emotional during the court process. Emotions in family court can be seen as a sign of a psychological problem.
Find a way to make sure your narcissist is getting something out of the negotiations that they want. They have to feel they are winning. If they feel like they are losing, the litigation will continue and be used as revenge.
How to Defend Against the Opposing Party with NPD:
Expose the Lies of the Narcissist: It is possible to "break" a narcissist, even a well-trained and prepared one if you and your client are prepared. Narcissists are superhuman in their capacity to distort reality by offering highly "plausible" alternative scenarios, which fit most of the facts. It is essential to be equipped with absolutely unequivocal, first rate, thoroughly authenticated and vouched for information. The following actions can be used to expose the lies of the narcissist:
Ask your client to outline the narcissist's lies and distortions of fact for you. The client needs to be as specific as possible. You need to know dates, locations, times and the names of the persons that can provide information on each lie.
Take each lie and look for how the lie leads to another and another. Because the narcissist has been lying for years, they are not likely to have taken the steps to conceal their lies or realize that one lie begets another lie.
As you are gathering and outlining the lies, be careful how much you reveal to the opposing attorney. Often the opposing attorney will not realize that their client is a full-blown narcissist and lying and distorting the facts until much later. You will have a better opportunity to collect the evidence you need to expose the narcissist's lies if the opposing attorney has not yet discovered that their client is liar.
Work with your client on the sources from which you can gather documents to reveal the lies and distortions of fact.
Ask the opposing counsel for releases so you can get documents directly from a source - if the opposing attorney does not yet know what you are looking for, they may be more likely to provide you with the releases.
Send a request for production of documents to gather documents from the narcissist.
Draft interrogatories that you know the narcissist will not be able to resist providing untruthful answers to and for which you have evidence to demonstrate that the answer is a lie.
Draft a request for admissions that you also know the narcissist will not be able to resist providing untruthful answers to and for which you have evidence to demonstrate that the answer is a lie.
Identify and interview witnesses that can demonstrate the narcissist is lying. Get the witnesses to provide you with a written statement about the facts they know.
If the parties are involved in a custody evaluation, you will want to outline the lies for the evaluator and then provide the evaluator with the documents to reveal the lies. Also, provide the evaluator with the witness statements.
Provoke the Narcissist: The narcissist reacts with narcissistic rage, hatred, aggression, or violence to an infringement of what he perceives to be his entitlement. Any insinuation or hint that the narcissist is not special will often result in the narcissist losing control and exposing their true colors. The narcissist finds the following devastating:
Any statement or fact, which seems to contradict their inflated perception of their grandiose self.
Any criticism, disagreement, exposure of fake achievements, belittling of "talents and skills" which the narcissist fantasizes that he possesses, any hint that he is subordinated, subjugated, controlled, owned or dependent upon a third party.
Any description of the narcissist as average and common, indistinguishable from many others.
Any hint that the narcissist is weak, needy, dependent, deficient, slow, not intelligent, naive, gullible, susceptible, not in the know, manipulated, and/or a victim.
The narcissist may lose control if you state to them:
That he does not deserve the best treatment.
That his needs are not everyone's priority.
That he is boring, that his requirements can be catered to by an average practitioner (medical doctor, accountant, lawyer, psychiatrist).
That he and his motives are transparent and can be easily gauged, that he will do what he is told.
That his temper tantrums will not be tolerated.
That no special concessions will be made to accommodate his inflated sense of self.
That, like everyone else, he is subject to court procedures, etc.
I really think it is good to have some of the tips and also, a way to break ice/determine if the attorney will be able to identify and deal with the issues. Seems I am always behind the 8 ball when it comes to having the knowledge when I need it, but maybe I'll become an "expert" and use that to be of help to others ... the only way to "fly" in my opinion! :-)
Very good tips...I had a gay legal aid guy representing me re the child support..and he was so great because he didn't feed into his dynamic..and he really stood up for me...
Yes I could have done with more information like that a long time ago...I would have been way more prepared..but if it helps anyone else..Or if we can use it to help anyone else..still is really great to share thanks...
"Individuals with NPD feel injured, humiliated and empty when criticized. They often react with disdain, rage, and defiance to any slight, real or imagined." So true. The NH just raged at me because I did think some lame article he read to me was the most insightful dietary article to come down the pike. I slipped and pointed out that if he wasn't so concerned with getting N supply he wouldn't care what I thought and would not get mad when I had a thought that did not match his. He really lost it then. I threw out an insult and left the room. Should have just left the room . . . but these last weeks before court date are so stressful . . . Oh, well. I refuse to play up to him or feed him false compliments just so he will be nicer in court . . . sounds much to much like what a N might do . . . playact to get what they want. Wish I could afford a lawyer . . . I may rue the fact that I am going into court without one.
Dadda, you have been through so much turmoil and pain. I hope things get easier for you. How do you deal with all the stress? I can't help but worry about what this stress is doing to our bodies and our mental health. I just want this nonesense to end. Hugs, my friend.
"Individuals with NPD feel injured, humiliated and empty when criticized. They often react with disdain, rage, and defiance to any slight, real or imagined." So true. The NH just raged at me because I did not think some lame article he read to me was the most insightful dietary article to come down the pike. I slipped and pointed out that if he wasn't so concerned with getting N supply he wouldn't care what I thought and would not get mad when I had a thought that did not match his. He really lost it then. I threw out an insult and left the room. Should have just left the room . . . but these last weeks before court date are so stressful . . . Oh, well. I refuse to play up to him or feed him false compliments just so he will be nicer in court . . . sounds much to much like what a N might do . . . playact to get what they want. Wish I could afford a lawyer . . . I may rue the fact that I am going into court without one.
Dadda, you have been through so much turmoil and pain. I hope things get easier for you. How do you deal with all the stress? I can't help but worry about what this stress is doing to our bodies and our mental health. I just want this nonesense to end. Hugs, my friend.