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I want to preface this by saying first I am not trying to preach or tell anyone how to or what to believe or think. I know we all have some beliefs and my main thought in all is that ultimate "preaching" is done silently, by example and way we live. But there are a couple of points to my post and I think it may be applicable to any faith system, as I have read about similar problems in other religions.
I have been in a quandary lately about going to church. Well, truly it is more than lately, but it has been going on. I know we are supposed to assemble together, but my "gripe" has been that God doesn't live in a box, waiting for us. In past, I've been harsh on myself for not doing things - as a wife, a person, a mom when I should have. More so than doing what I know is wrong. It took me a long time to realize that part of the reason I wasn't doing things that I would now do is that I didn't "know any better". And I guess that has been part of my problem with church. If there is no or little effect, what is the point? If you are already a "good person" why bother?
So anyway, I think I have been sort of clear that I read my Bible a lot during the last divorce as a way of getting through the grief I was going through and also, to get a better understanding of why I was going through hell on Earth and why there was (apparently) no forgiveness from other people who claimed to be of the same faith. So I found a lot of answers ... and recently, stood up in my car repair dungaree suit and made some speech about divorce and about it not being allowed in the bulletin or people doing anything, as they would with physical ailments and such ... and trying to point out that it would seem spiritual illness or suicide is even more important to deal with and approach, per the Bible, than physical ailments. I hate making speeches; I am always waiting for the other person who thinks like me to make the speech. So it was nerve-wracking and I don't remember much of what I said, other than the stuff about divorce and discord and how it doesn't affect ONLY the family it is happening with, plus that it wasn't homosexuality that was the cause of Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed ... it was the state of the heart. People can look fantastic, from the outside and smile and yet be filled with hatred, bitterness anger and all that. Sin is sin is sin, too apart from one.
So after my speech, in which my mouth dried up to the point where I could hardly talk, nobody said a word about it to me. I didn't go last week because I had to get ready for that trial. And I was fighting with myself about going today. So I went ... and there is a spot in the bulletin ... for friends who are having marital difficulties. So that was something ... and I guess a start. I've been doing a lot of research and writing and there is a lot of abuse that goes on in churches, too. I have told the pastor that I will be bringing in material from a site that I found that is faith-based and directly addresses churches getting involved and helping those in the situation. And I have read countless stories of people who've endured - in silence - such abuse and nobody in the congregation knows, or if they do, they don't stretch out a hand to help. I have been fighting within myself because my first inclination has been QUIT. Go elsewhere. I have to remind myself there is still a lot I don't know or understand and remember back to when I was even more "there". I don't know what I would think, if I was in the seats and someone came up to make my speech ... would I think they were weird, maybe trying to wreak some havoc ... would it even be conceivable that God still speaks when we allow ourselves to be used?
Personally, I think God is powerful, but we are often expected to manifest that power to others. The reason for the story of the good Samaritan ... God could have sent an angel to help or zapped the man back to health in response to a quick prayer by the Levite or priest, as they crossed the street and hurried away. I personally have often found help and genuine caring responses from many people who would normally be categorized as "dregs" of society, like the Samaritan was by the Jews.
But anyway, I wanted to share that because all of us have our passions and get involved in different places in life and sometimes it seems pretty useless or like nobody cares, why bother. I was just encouraged yesterday with the quote about being so close to success (and that being where many times we give up, never realizing). I just had a really "down" week and am feeling better and I am sure some of you go there too at times. So just to let you know, you make a difference and so keep on keeping on as they say and never, never, never give up.
And also, I am sharing a couple of sites that go into some of the issues using a Biblical emphasis, if anyone is interested. Some places still do teach "woman submit" or a variation without taking the whole context. I know I have been much more able to stand against that stuff (inside and refuting those who try to make me accept it as authority) by knowing the whole story. And it may be helpful if you used to have faith but that has been shattered by all that has happened.
http://www.marriagemissions.com/
http://www.focusministries1.org/
I have been in a quandary lately about going to church. Well, truly it is more than lately, but it has been going on. I know we are supposed to assemble together, but my "gripe" has been that God doesn't live in a box, waiting for us. In past, I've been harsh on myself for not doing things - as a wife, a person, a mom when I should have. More so than doing what I know is wrong. It took me a long time to realize that part of the reason I wasn't doing things that I would now do is that I didn't "know any better". And I guess that has been part of my problem with church. If there is no or little effect, what is the point? If you are already a "good person" why bother?
So anyway, I think I have been sort of clear that I read my Bible a lot during the last divorce as a way of getting through the grief I was going through and also, to get a better understanding of why I was going through hell on Earth and why there was (apparently) no forgiveness from other people who claimed to be of the same faith. So I found a lot of answers ... and recently, stood up in my car repair dungaree suit and made some speech about divorce and about it not being allowed in the bulletin or people doing anything, as they would with physical ailments and such ... and trying to point out that it would seem spiritual illness or suicide is even more important to deal with and approach, per the Bible, than physical ailments. I hate making speeches; I am always waiting for the other person who thinks like me to make the speech. So it was nerve-wracking and I don't remember much of what I said, other than the stuff about divorce and discord and how it doesn't affect ONLY the family it is happening with, plus that it wasn't homosexuality that was the cause of Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed ... it was the state of the heart. People can look fantastic, from the outside and smile and yet be filled with hatred, bitterness anger and all that. Sin is sin is sin, too apart from one.
So after my speech, in which my mouth dried up to the point where I could hardly talk, nobody said a word about it to me. I didn't go last week because I had to get ready for that trial. And I was fighting with myself about going today. So I went ... and there is a spot in the bulletin ... for friends who are having marital difficulties. So that was something ... and I guess a start. I've been doing a lot of research and writing and there is a lot of abuse that goes on in churches, too. I have told the pastor that I will be bringing in material from a site that I found that is faith-based and directly addresses churches getting involved and helping those in the situation. And I have read countless stories of people who've endured - in silence - such abuse and nobody in the congregation knows, or if they do, they don't stretch out a hand to help. I have been fighting within myself because my first inclination has been QUIT. Go elsewhere. I have to remind myself there is still a lot I don't know or understand and remember back to when I was even more "there". I don't know what I would think, if I was in the seats and someone came up to make my speech ... would I think they were weird, maybe trying to wreak some havoc ... would it even be conceivable that God still speaks when we allow ourselves to be used?
Personally, I think God is powerful, but we are often expected to manifest that power to others. The reason for the story of the good Samaritan ... God could have sent an angel to help or zapped the man back to health in response to a quick prayer by the Levite or priest, as they crossed the street and hurried away. I personally have often found help and genuine caring responses from many people who would normally be categorized as "dregs" of society, like the Samaritan was by the Jews.
But anyway, I wanted to share that because all of us have our passions and get involved in different places in life and sometimes it seems pretty useless or like nobody cares, why bother. I was just encouraged yesterday with the quote about being so close to success (and that being where many times we give up, never realizing). I just had a really "down" week and am feeling better and I am sure some of you go there too at times. So just to let you know, you make a difference and so keep on keeping on as they say and never, never, never give up.
And also, I am sharing a couple of sites that go into some of the issues using a Biblical emphasis, if anyone is interested. Some places still do teach "woman submit" or a variation without taking the whole context. I know I have been much more able to stand against that stuff (inside and refuting those who try to make me accept it as authority) by knowing the whole story. And it may be helpful if you used to have faith but that has been shattered by all that has happened.
http://www.marriagemissions.com/
http://www.focusministries1.org/
Thank you so much for sharing this! I struggle so deeply with returning to church. The church I long attended or even a new one. I believe I will be misunderstood. Seen as a woman who gave up on her marraige, a woman who failed in marraige. Those who don't know me closely could never understand what occured in my marraige. That is wasn't just two people that wanted out for our happiness or that is just didn't work out.
I looked at focus ministries and I believe both of these sights are going to be tremendously helpful to me.
Thank you for "speaking out" :)
The church I grew up in was against divorce. Even now, as I walk through the front door I am waiting for the stone to be thrown or to be struck dead by lightning.
Mom, we did not fail in marriage. We stuck it out for 16/17 yrs, We tried every strategy we could try. We smiled and hid our pain form everyone so well that now no one knows why it is over. We did our parts in the marriage. We made the husband look great. We held our heads high.
They failed us. They abused us. They took every part of us and tried to destroy it. Nowhere is it written that husbands have the right to treat us like we were treated. They tried to make us so little that we would become slave, not partner to them. BUT,
now we are free from that(well in theory anyway) and screw what others think. You didn't give up use wised up. You saved yourself. You saved your boys. You did the right thing.
You continue to be inspiring! You are a prime example of "The Power of One" and each person's ability to make a difference just by speaking out against oppression and injustice. So often we never know who or what we influenced or even if we influenced anyone other than ourselves . . . nonetheless, we all need to speak out for justice, compassion, for ourselves, and for those who can not, for whatever reason, speak out for themselves. The sheer fact that they have that new catagory in the bulletin shows you touched someone's consciousness. Even if it turns out they just did it to shut you up, it proves that you have made them question themselves. Way to go, girl. As a Unitarian, I have no need for formal religion but respect your need to find solace and nurturing. You are on the right road, whether you stay at that particular church home or wander elsewhere or find peace within your own spirituality. A community of spiritual, loving, and caring people makes our daily travels and travails easier. You have found such a community, here, among your friends. I hope you find it elsewhere as well . . . at church or in your community. Never stop searching for it, but know the basic seeds for it are within yourself . . . nurture them and they will blossom.
Seriously, I have NO idea how anybody else's mind works ... I know I try to learn the hard lessons vicariously, by other people's results. Most stuff, I don't need to try it to think it's a "bad idea". I listen and read and usually get a lot of stuff to think about as a result. I also look up a lot of stuff on numerous subjects, especially things that aren't super clear-cut. But I figure a lot of people's minds probably, similar to mine, light up super brightly with insight that motivates immediate change; other things - something might catch a person's attention, but it's not "high priority" and they may or may not seek more information.
I think some of this stems from other people. I remember when we were getting this house built and set up, and it was worth about 100k, NH's friend, the "lecher" was building a 400k house, custom designed and very nice. Meanwhile in our congregation, there was a woman whose husband had left; she had the responsibility for their 5 children and lived in a crazy looking and small, dumpy rental house. It wasn't even all the same color (paint) on the outside. I didn't know her well, but we all were members of the same congregation and I kept thinking about it and how wrong it seemed. To this day, I wish I had done something (concrete) to ease her burden, make that house more "home-like". Back then was the time I thought all the other people were the "super Christians" or the like; now I'm starting to see or think that whether in church or society, people often get into a certain mind set and it's not that people DON'T care, they may not know something is going on or don't know what practical things might be helpful. They get used to there being an "agency" or a "person" who handles "those problems". Most agencies I've dealt with give you a tri-fold pamphlet as they explain that "their" agency can't help you and send you to the next .... I remember how I hated being told "good luck" as I was leaving each "next place" I was sent to ... I even decided it was short-hand for "you are screwed, but no hard feelings from here."
And finally , on the "church", well I don't see the point of it, if it doesn't show a difference and BE a difference. If it is still "everyone for themself" and God is dead (or people act like it), a social club would be much more appropriate. I know Jesus spoke of divorce and the poor (who would always "be with us") ... and I have heard it used to justify people's suffering "as God's will". NO. He spoke of them as having the same fundamental cause: hard, obstinate, selfish rock-like hearts.
Mom and livelife: NO we are not "failures". I was chastised a few times when I left; I don't think he ever has been, or counseled. I was accepting a lot of blame for things, but somehow it hit me: I was only getting the knowledge because I was LOOKING, and hard, for it. I DIDN'T have that knowledge when the problems were made; and I have attended "church" most of my life. I was SO uncomfortable coming back here, THAT felt like "failure". And even if you don't go to church, you can still read your Bible and learn more and have a relationship with God. Start reading and things will hit you and start to make sense. When he started the rampage two years ago, I was reading the verses about how "all" the disciples fled when Jesus was arrested. That hit me HARD. These disciples had seen so many miracles, including people brought back to life, why should they be afraid of ANYTHING? Just made me realize if those who had actually been there for all of those miracles left Jesus at the height of crisis, how much less might we have to make do with? A lot of the verses that talk about people's minds, ears and eyes not "able" to make good sense of His words and what they "got" would be the surface stuff, not the complete and deeper, complex meanings in the parables and other words. I also find Revelations 2 & 3 extremely helpful, in terms of church. As there is MUCH repetition of the important points throughout the Bible, warnings about false profits, all the words about the Pharisees, I take it pretty safely that whoever I'm assembling "with" as a church, the congregation and leaders will fall into one of the 7 churches Jesus addresses. I also remember the woman caught in adultery and one of the men Jesus healed. He did not treat them like crap about what they had DONE, but he did warn them, don't do that anymore.
I found this from an article/blog at Psychology Today:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/repairing-relationships/201210/the-spiritual-disconnect-in-society-deception
"A recent report on devout Christians married to non-believers noted that the vast majority of these "unequally yoked" Christians are women. True to what we call Mirage Man Syndrome, a significant number of these women reported marrying "men who pretended to be Christians during the courtship only to reveal their religious indifference after the wedding." Their approval seeking was successful in getting them to the altar. Living the 100% Christian life after the wedding was another story, as their shocked and disappointed Christian wives were soon to discover.
It is indeed tragic that we are given challenges, sermons and homilies to live lives of authenticity from our clergy and spiritual leaders like Oprah Winfrey, but these same spiritual leaders express absolutely no interest in discussing why our romantic relationships are based on dishonesty and result in so much pain."
My relationship with my church family was such a huge part of my life.( Has been since high school)
I would like it to be again.
Since I chose to be "quiet" and meanwhile he went to the Pastor, also told the Woman's Ministry Director the day I filed for divorce and continued to go to our weekly "Family Group" I assume that he has "shared" lots of words about me.
Live, I LOVE everything you said. I may write that out & read it over & over.
I did meet with both the Women's Ministry & Children's Ministry Leaders (both women) about 1 month after filing for divorce and shared EVERY detail with them. I needed for them to know what was really happening. I chose not to share with anyone else & I am very proud of that.
I am the one who can hold my head high!
that is part of why I returned to the same church.
That is my "home" I LOVE it there and I love the people & the worship.
He sits in those pews with his girlfriend whom he is living with ( & sleeping with) he is such a hypocrite.
I started a Bible study 2 weeks ago on the book of Ruth. It is giving me such hope for my future.
I found though that I answer almost every question from the perspective of my divorce, which is where I am at, but not so sure the others at my discussion table really can relate.
However,like you said Dadda, my time spent with God and my Bible doing the study have been very good for my heart as work through this stage of my healing :)
Thanks for starting this post, Dadda. A good thread to share on more personal faith.
I guess, too, since the "pastor" back then (in 98) helped snatch the children but did not, after that, work together WITH US, I am realizing that people come up against unhealthy leaders and people in churches, which are supposed to help us and toward healing and growth. The one now sort of "put things on me" (or so I felt) when this was brewing and come about; he just left here after checking how things are going and I did tell him that I had noticed the bulletin; he said it was the responsibility of one of the women who I had talked with briefly (after me speech), but again, I got an opportunity to develop some additional points, he said some people were just "not sure" WHAT to do ... I said I know the feeling, and that there are people who can make some really tacky remarks (like with people trying to "get pregnant" or loss of child) but most hurting people understand the underlying care and good motives and appreciate the contact, the caring it shows. Anyway, if we never get beyond our ignorance, we still have the hurting people and the ignorant, uncomfortable people, so how does that help?
Anyway, this all "turns back to me" at certain areas and places and am glad that I am keeping in mind my own need to reflect, learn and grow. We were meeting with the hospital chaplain and I always remember his saying, "when you point the finger at someone, there are three pointing back." Not to mean that we are always responsible or to blame or just should "suck it up", but sometimes want to regain "control" or the situation as it was and of course, if we don't change (perspective or behavior) we will just stay on that treadmill.
I like the book of Ruth; how Naomi even advises Ruth what to do and points her to a good and accomplished man. I wish I had a mother in law like that instead, instead of one who acts like I died and unconcerned how her son's behavior affects me and her grandchildren. At least I can know I have tried to be a good wife and daughter in law and not use the past against them; I saw where a lot of the confusion and upheaval could have created a "loop of escalation". This time around and being more forthcoming, but in order of how the Bible states to do it (not shaming but trying to resolve) I have no doubts and understand the past WAS driven and created by unhealthy and actually malicious actions and attitudes and is still true today. Regretful, but more chance of positive change now. And THAT is a good thing!
And I do feel (seem) more like an adult, being able to (knowledgeably) discuss and even challenge certain areas, not just "go for guidance" and do as told. And that is definitely Biblical, as there is "neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." And if I find other than that, I now will try to correct or clarify, but will have no guilt about leaving if there is not truth at the foundation.