Narcissist Trauma Survival and Recovery Community Group
Support for those anyone who is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist. Together we are much stronger than any of us would be alone. A place for non-judgemental mutial support, advice, and comfort.
First off: this is not a "rant" per se. Some religions do, however (and I don't necessarily think it's intentional, always) subjugate people or women and children ... it was when I REALLY began studying the materials of the "religion" I was brought up in I learned there was a lot more in there than what I was taught or observing ... I also found power and some confidence through that; maybe that will be a help or inspiration to some of you, no matter what spiritual beliefs you may have (or even if you don't, studying reality is the basic crux, I suppose)
Went to therapy yesterday. Today, the pastor came with a bucket of tomatoes and I let loose with all the passion of conviction within me. Not out of control, but making points as I understand them. That the "Good Samaritan" parable DOES TELL US to do the RIGHT thing (and as I understand it, Samaritans and Jews were often attacking when they were in the "wrong territory" so the man was taking personal as well as financial risks). Jesus could have sent an angel or a miracle ... He could have told us that prayer can achieve anything ... He didn't.
I pointed out that Paul talked about the shame of a woman "teaching" or speaking up in church: yes, a REAL shame, because it speaks very loudly that the "men" are not taking their responsibilities.And that God PUT women in positions of authority and leadership at times; I have to believe they were, for that time, the "best man" for the job.
And just basically, that people like Abraham Lincoln, MLK and so many others have DIED because they dared to stand up. That I have more balls than most of them all rolled up together; I came back, facing my fears, sacrificing and trying, even imperfectly. And THAT after having his child snatching brother and "our" pastor totally betray my trust. And none of these so-called Christians EVER apologizing or even checking how things are going.
I am actually calm. I was not claiming perfection but I have spent one hell of a lot of time in studying, my Bible and commentaries as well as regular material in social issues, psychology and etc. I may not be 100% right but I'm closer to it than armchair philosophers, as I was told that it is "such and such a way". YES, I said and that is why gay marriage is becoming legal and all kinds of other stuff is changing, because people are willing to blow some hot air, but their God doesn't do anything and can't, apparently, til Jesus returns.
I just relate a lot with Peter, who was maybe impetuous but wanted to do the right thing. And that despite his "flaws", he was chosen ... probably because when they were modified and channeled, they were part of him that he could use to relate to and with others ... as Jesus told him about the denial, "and when you have turned again, turn and strengthen your brethren". In other words, tell them and show them how you "shamed" yourself (convictions) but got through and weren't destroyed. But I've been feeling like Elijah ... but I don't know how to find the 7000 hidden. Or whether I need to.
But when he told me something about it being impossible for him to have any effect on matters, I flatly contradicted that. I don't remember everything I said. So now I may be a wild-eyed raving religious maniac, but I feel a lot better and stronger. That the "law" is not responsible to make people act like adults, the law is supposed to only be a guide. I read an article last night about a woman in a similar situation to mine and her father-in-law came over and shot her to death after she had put her 12 and 16 year old on the school bus. That is senseless and my guess, the husband's family (on whose land their residence is) probably claimed to love the grandchildren. And also that they had to help their son against the harpy trying to destroy him (he was having an affair and apparently, she found out and told him he could go and be happy with the other woman ... so she had a protective order as a fight broke out, etc). So the grandchildren can "be resilient" as people say they are, because they damn well don't have a chioce, whereas "the adults do" but don't avail themselves of the opportunity to demonstrate some maturity and compassion.. So all of this stuff and "society" and "church" and everybody (around here) lack of response or interest until the worst happens has just been on my mind.
But that the things that are "impossible" with "men" (which can include women), consider them done with God. And the people who care and do more than talk. Because that woman who was killed refused to let her father-in-law drive her off the property and apparently, her standing up to his control tactics sealed her death warrant. And their other son was divorced, too, so maybe they weren't perfect parents (but who is?) still didn't give them the right to interfere. If they really cared about the grandchildren, they could have done a lot of other things besides try to "win" at all costs.
Went to therapy yesterday. Today, the pastor came with a bucket of tomatoes and I let loose with all the passion of conviction within me. Not out of control, but making points as I understand them. That the "Good Samaritan" parable DOES TELL US to do the RIGHT thing (and as I understand it, Samaritans and Jews were often attacking when they were in the "wrong territory" so the man was taking personal as well as financial risks). Jesus could have sent an angel or a miracle ... He could have told us that prayer can achieve anything ... He didn't.
I pointed out that Paul talked about the shame of a woman "teaching" or speaking up in church: yes, a REAL shame, because it speaks very loudly that the "men" are not taking their responsibilities.And that God PUT women in positions of authority and leadership at times; I have to believe they were, for that time, the "best man" for the job.
And just basically, that people like Abraham Lincoln, MLK and so many others have DIED because they dared to stand up. That I have more balls than most of them all rolled up together; I came back, facing my fears, sacrificing and trying, even imperfectly. And THAT after having his child snatching brother and "our" pastor totally betray my trust. And none of these so-called Christians EVER apologizing or even checking how things are going.
I am actually calm. I was not claiming perfection but I have spent one hell of a lot of time in studying, my Bible and commentaries as well as regular material in social issues, psychology and etc. I may not be 100% right but I'm closer to it than armchair philosophers, as I was told that it is "such and such a way". YES, I said and that is why gay marriage is becoming legal and all kinds of other stuff is changing, because people are willing to blow some hot air, but their God doesn't do anything and can't, apparently, til Jesus returns.
I just relate a lot with Peter, who was maybe impetuous but wanted to do the right thing. And that despite his "flaws", he was chosen ... probably because when they were modified and channeled, they were part of him that he could use to relate to and with others ... as Jesus told him about the denial, "and when you have turned again, turn and strengthen your brethren". In other words, tell them and show them how you "shamed" yourself (convictions) but got through and weren't destroyed. But I've been feeling like Elijah ... but I don't know how to find the 7000 hidden. Or whether I need to.
But when he told me something about it being impossible for him to have any effect on matters, I flatly contradicted that. I don't remember everything I said. So now I may be a wild-eyed raving religious maniac, but I feel a lot better and stronger. That the "law" is not responsible to make people act like adults, the law is supposed to only be a guide. I read an article last night about a woman in a similar situation to mine and her father-in-law came over and shot her to death after she had put her 12 and 16 year old on the school bus. That is senseless and my guess, the husband's family (on whose land their residence is) probably claimed to love the grandchildren. And also that they had to help their son against the harpy trying to destroy him (he was having an affair and apparently, she found out and told him he could go and be happy with the other woman ... so she had a protective order as a fight broke out, etc). So the grandchildren can "be resilient" as people say they are, because they damn well don't have a chioce, whereas "the adults do" but don't avail themselves of the opportunity to demonstrate some maturity and compassion.. So all of this stuff and "society" and "church" and everybody (around here) lack of response or interest until the worst happens has just been on my mind.
But that the things that are "impossible" with "men" (which can include women), consider them done with God. And the people who care and do more than talk. Because that woman who was killed refused to let her father-in-law drive her off the property and apparently, her standing up to his control tactics sealed her death warrant. And their other son was divorced, too, so maybe they weren't perfect parents (but who is?) still didn't give them the right to interfere. If they really cared about the grandchildren, they could have done a lot of other things besides try to "win" at all costs.
Yep. Some pastors can certainly lay guilt trips on women and quote scripture to do so. What they are leaving out is that there is just as much scripture about how a man should treat the wife. happily, there are pastors who do make the man responsible for his own behaviours and if they get involved they look at both sides, not just blame the woman for the man's folly.
Kudo's to you in searching for yourself.
Religion can be a great comfort . . . or an excuse for the worse injustice and harm possible. Preachers, ministers, prophets, etc. can be true healers of hurt, lonely, or misguided souls or they can be the root cause of making matters worse by making judgmental or demeaning wrong-headed comments.
The secret is to search out the options and find what works for you personally.
Unitarian Universalism has been around for hundreds of years. Many of the Founding Fathers were Unitarians . . . . Jefferson, Adams, for sure, . . . Jefferson even got labled as an atheist allow he was really a Diests who believed in a supreme being who set the universe in motion and then expected mankind to live morally and in peace with each other. Google Unitarian and you can learn more. I can only say that finding my church in Cleveland kept me sane as my daughter died. I love it. and Fell so at home there.
Also, while divorce, I spent a lot of time reading the Bible. There was a lot of stuff that is really hard to take. Or explain. I have a different understanding of my faith than I did previously. For example, in 1998, I was running through this area that had all these thorny stems that kept hitting up against my legs and all of a sudden, THE QUESTION hit me ... if Jesus died for me, WHY was I running through a field and the pastor helping my husband HURT me?? A totally "blasphemous" question and such as inspired the reformation and a lot else, I suppose.
I suppose one BIG reason is that RELIGION IS often used to bash, silence, oppress and even kill others ... justify the taking of property, etc.
Whereas FAITH is often the cornerstone to accomplishment. And I am not interested in preaching at others, I just found that there is SO MUCH that is very important that has never been addressed in church or Sunday school. Jesus himself pointed out much of the damage and harm done in the name of "religion" and how burdens were laid on converts, while those in power and authority lifted not one finger to relieve those burdens.
Plus, it has hit my mind ... if he made a pass at me, would it not stand to reason that MAYBE he never TRIED when it might have done some good, or at least mitigated the harm, and that is one of the reasons my husband has STUPIDLY gone down the path he has ... my husband attended this church for years (we both used to). We were baptized together and it still niggles me that my husband used to have some faith ...
In 1998, when this all started the first time, everyone made this big prayer circle to pray for me. I experienced one of my fits of passions and made a call that everyone there should pray for themselves as well. I don't remember much of that because often when I feel strongly, I am also fighting my nerves of attention being on me ... I forever wait, sometimes, for someone to say what seems extremely obvious to me.
The church went through a major split after I was gone. Out of say, 100+ people, there are maybe about 20 left. Who is in the right? The people who left or the people who stayed? Maybe neither ... the only thing about it all I do know is that one of NH's "best friends" (who was a deacon or some such) was also playing around with other people, including some older teens. I honestly am not super aware as I haven't asked.
Before he took off, though, he was telling me this "best friend" was cheating. It is sort of weird, because I would hardly be one to read to him from the Bible, but I read Proverbs 6, which discusses adultery. Didn't realize where husband's head was at the time, but I think sometimes that is a form of God's intervention, when a person is open to inspiration.
I have done more reading on adultery since then and it is something the man who has already fallen into a wrong relationship to God falls into ... and leads to death (spiritual). That not many return from it once they fall into it. And I am talking here about people who have a "faith relationship" with God. Jesus forgave the woman who was brought before him, so please don't get the idea that I am condemning. He did tell her to, "go and sin no more," but he also told that to someone he healed, "lest worse befall you" and there is no specific mention of that person's sins.
But I once told my husband, that it seems the Bible is full of repetition on some themes .... like I was mentioning how it was repeated at least 3 or 4 times that "a man leaves his father and mother ... and cleaves to his wife" (an obvious sticking point in our "marriage").
But one of the very clearest things was the responsibility we have to one another, if we say we believe the message of the Bible ...
"But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood." (Ezekial 33:4) That theme is repeated over and over, about the "false prophets" and "false teachers" and so on ... both OT and NT ... "Keep a close watch on how you live and on your teaching. Stay true to what is right for the sake of your own salvation and the salvation of those who hear you." (1 Timothy 4:16)
And finally, God himself said that a wife is a help MEET (appropriate to and for, or "meeting the need") to the man ... many religions will try to impose a "submissive" stance onto the woman without heeding God's word in its entirety: In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. "Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God's gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered." (1 Peter 3:7) and "In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself." (Ephesians 5:28) The commentary on the 1st verse states:
"By this it is not necessarily meant that she is of feebler capacity, or inferior mental endowments, but that she is more tender and delicate; more subject to infirmities and weaknesses; less capable of enduring fatigue and toil; less adapted to the rough and stormy scenes of life. As such, she should be regarded and treated with special kindness and attention ... She may have mental endowments equal to his own; she may have moral qualities in every way superior to his; but the God of nature has made her with a more delicate frame, a more fragile structure, and with a body subject to many infirmities to which the more hardy frame of man is a stranger."
So when I read about the things Olderandwiser has written about the "pastor" and I see how things have gone here, I get really steamed up, because I have read what the Bible says and I have tried to follow that ... and I basically ended up the other day by saying, forcefully that I have bigger balls than a lot of the so-called leaders and used that term, too. I also read about the "silly, weak-willed women" and so on and I realize how easily I might be fooled, if I don't have a decent grasp on REAL factual knowledge, both in the big world and the spiritual.
Hopefully, none of my comments are coming across as "preaching", but religion has subjugated many by using PARTS instead of the whole, not handling the word "rightly" (as statistics and words can be used to fool or mislead, as well).
And by the way, I find it QUITE interesting, if you read Genesis, God stated that "It is good" at the end of each day of creation, whereas the 1st time he said, "It is VERY good," was when he had created man and taken woman out, so that he would not be "alone".
My faith doesn't say that you should kill or bash others ... in fact, I think Jesus was amazed to find stronger faith outside the Jewish nation than within ... and Paul, the same thing when he was in a "heather" nation but found "the law" (as Msbeaverhausen stated) written on their hearts already ... but that we (of the same faith) were to encourage and carry each other, but at times it was right to reprove those in "error", but gently at first, and if they refuse to listen (to examine and look to the real facts), finally, to treat them as "heathen", which was to say as not being of our faith, but not in the sense of mistreating them.
It all blows my mind how much time gets spent visiting those in the hospital who have a physical ailment (but who are presumed to have "salvation" and therefore, "right with God") but NOT to put in the bulletin or minister (by visiting or reproof) those who are sending themselves to hell?? I kept my peace as long as I could, but told him that I will gladly "shake the dirt" of this place off when I leave. I know there ARE decent people here, but am not looking to make a giant controversy, either ... the "leaders" of two "churches" know what is going on and could take steps to correct it. It is their unwillingness (cowardice or self-interest) that makes me angry and the condoning of congregant wrong (which can be seen by those outside and brings a bad reputation) that probably contributes to my anger. People inside can get confused and accept as "okay" things they shouldn't when wrongs stay unchallenged ... just like when my husband told me I was going to hell if I got hit by a truck after refusing to take communion, where the Bible states that it should not be taken if you are in an "unworthy" state.
My faith in God is a lot stronger now than my faith in (most) people ... and my faith in people rests in their integrity, not their religious doctrine. So I do stay far from those whose doctrine condones violence or hatred of others, as well.
First, If conservative Christians are pro life then why do they support war and the death penalty. And why do they eat meat and kill animals, hunt and destry things, the environment. Why do the majority of these people look to themselves before reaching out to others...Because life is life and we should honour all life. Before Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit all the animals ate from the trees in the garden, there was no death.
And then from the other side, if vegans are against killing and eating.using animal products most are also antiwar and deathpenalty. why are they prochoice. The majority would let a pregnant cat have her kittens befor neutering them, why do they not give the same sanctity to human life.... They seem to be trying to recreate eden in their personal life, which means that ALL life should be honoured.
Anyway, I am curious to your responses, as I told her I needed to think about it and get back to her....
Livelifenow: I am delighted by one part of your statement - YOU are the first person I have EVER known that actually has read that in the Bible ... that even the animals were eating plants. It was not until Noah got off the ark that God gave animals over for food, but it was also when He put the fear of men into them! I am also convinced that He did not kill animals to make "skins" for Adam and Eve to wear (He had just created a whole universe from nothing; why would that be hard?) Nor do I think God was all excited about getting a dead, slaughtered nasty and bloody baby lamb from Abel; I believe Cain, having the harder job (fighting the weeds b/c of the curse), did not have much to bring God during that first harvest. And he probably worked hard for what he DID achieve. Abel, taking the more natural (original) job, probably had a lot of opportunities to watch the baby lambs and see them nursing from their mothers and also, how enchanting to watch them! I figure he got curious about milk and maybe he came up with yogurt or cheese and brought that (fat portions) along with a baby lamb to entertain God. That would be an example of "being fruitful and multiplying". God told Cain he would do just as well, if he resisted sin (peanut butter, bread, etc etc) but (and why I think choosing evil may cause a loss of free will, at least eventually) his anger overcame him and "sin mastered him". Even at that, God had mercy and marked him so he would not be killed out of hand (maybe so his family would not be left destitute?).
I know that stuff doesn't "answer" your question. God said it as he found out what the pleasant smell was (from the birds and such Noah was burning up): "Man's imagination is evil". I am still trying to understand a whole lot, especially from the OT, because there are times when God ordered deaths. I won't pretend that I understand it, just that we (humans) don't even understand most science, and I guess that is sometimes where faith comes into play.
Abraham advocated for Sodom and Gomorrah and kept bringing the number of "good people" down .. to what 5? Moses averted the destruction of the entire nation when God was angry and decided He would make the nation from Moses' descendents, Jesus didn't say we should fight, but "turn the other cheek" (in most instances) yet He too could stand up as He did when driving out the temple merchants.
There is a verse (Amos 5:24) that states: "But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!" That verse hit me hard when I read it, years ago, because when the enormity of all the things I've done wrong REALLY hit me (and I don't even know ALL the ways those things affected others), all I really could do was cry. Even if you have millions of dollars, you can't make some things right.
The preceding verses (and the whole chapter expands on it): I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them.Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them. Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!
If everyone really thought hard on themselves, I am sure there would be plenty of tears.
And also:
"What makes you think I want all your sacrifices?" says the LORD. "I am sick of your burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fattened cattle. I get no pleasure from the blood of bulls and lambs and goats." (Isaiah 1:11)
“He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig’s blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol. These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations;" (Isaiah 66:3)
Isaiah 59 is a good chapter about it all, too.But it makes it clear to me that God is not desiring all these dead animals ... apparently, though and only on a substitutionary basis, it makes some sort of atonement. I can't see myself killing one of our dogs so I can "get right" with God ... and I think basically that is what He was trying to get across:
"To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice." Proverbs 21:3
Proverbs 2: My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. He holds victory in store for the upright, he is a shield to those whose walk is blameless, for he guards the course of the just and protects the way of his faithful ones. Then you will understand what is right and just and fair—every good path.For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Discretion will protect you, and understanding will guard you.
Livelifenow: my "guess" is that we probably all have at least some wrong ideas and with the animals as meat, it would appear that Jesus ate fish and lamb; when the angel of the Lord visited Abraham, they had meat at the dinner so it would appear that it is not "wrong" although I am sure those who've thought it through and choose not to are keeping the original spirit of what the Lord intended and if for that, I am sure it is a blessing for them. For instance, one person believes it’s all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. (Romans 14:2-3)
On the death penalty, I won't say that I completely get it, although death is the penalty according to "the Law" for ALL sin. Eating the fruit that was not to be eaten ... resulted in death, although not right away. God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah ... was He unrighteous? Or did He maybe know more than what we can and also understand that those people's evil might spread to even more people, but definitely the pain they wanted to inflict on others would. As to what I think (I am I guess conservative in behavior, but main "credo" as far as rule-making: I think a person should basically be allowed to do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting someone else - and that can be hard to tell sometimes) about the death penalty: I applaud the fact that there are organizations like Project Innocence. It is too easy to ignore and forget people in prison (how many of us would even think to visit strangers in there?), but to think of the FACT that some have had their lives ruined because of overzealous prosecutors or judges who REFUSED to be impartial? Plus, living on can be torture, so in some ways I think lifetime imprisonment can be much harsher than death. But that is my own personal viewpoint; one that I don't expect others to share.
War is a hard one, because if I am peaceful, people might attack me just because I am then an "easy" mark. Should I stand up for myself if attacked? Or turn the other cheek/give in? Was it right to fight a war to end slavery? (although there were other matters, too, I'm sure, but slavery and secession would likely have given the South power to subdue the North over time, due to economic and therefore, political advantages). Should we have fought in WWII to end the power of the Axis countries, who, especially in Germany, thought nothing of life and humans were even lab rats and hideously tortured? Germany even turned on its own ally, Russia. I am not wise enough to answer all those questions, but it would seem that some wars might be as justified as standing up for someone you see being bullied or hurt by someone.
Abortion, to me is sort of a no-brainer. Most are not performed to save the mother's life, nor as a result of rape or incest. I read an article not too terribly long ago about a doctor who was raped; she became pregnant and gave birth and kept the child. Later, the rapist tormented her by demanding his "parental rights" and the state was trying to decide whether they should make a law about this, as it was unlikely to have wide application.
The next big town (approx 10,000) near here, another doctor had a pregnant wife: "Jane's Park" is being named in memory of Jane (Sieg) Stillson, a Bremen resident, Christian mother, and later a pharmacist, who died in February 1999. Two years ago, Jane was pregnant when she was diagnosed with cancer. She was told by her doctors to abort the child and get cancer treatment immediately, or she would die. She refused to choose her life over that of her unborn daughter, Jessica. Jessica is now a healthy 2 1/2 year old girl (in 1999).
Thinking of abortion, though, there were two time periods in particular when babies were slaughtered: in Egypt and within 2 years of the birth of Christ. Maybe there is more to it than we know. However, I have known some women who have had abortions; I do not judge them because it almost always seems to affect them later (negatively) and there is NOTHING they can do to change what they did now. China enforces it as a method of population control. I told my husband that I did not think we should have more children than what we could be financially and otherwise responsible for and he agreed. As I understand it, Catholicism sees birth control as a sin or failing, in not trusting God enough (not well-versed in that). I do know that Norma McCorvey, who was "Roe" in "Roe vs. Wade" tried later to get that overturned (2005; the Supreme Court refused to hear it), but she never actually had an abortion ... she first lied and claimed she'd been raped, so there was no evidence; then she tried the illegal methods but no "luck" there ... one of the two female attorneys who argued the case DID travel to Mexico for an illegal abortion after becoming pregnant while still in law school. The next year, she married her husband, who was also the father of her aborted child. From what I read, McCorvey had a harsh life, growing up ... she became a Catholic in 1998 and works in the pro-life movement.
I am sorry, because I know all that doesn't give you definite answers to your questions. I am the kind of person who would prefer to know, either way, about a lot of things too. Especially when it comes to teaching my children, not just what is right and wrong but how to think and use their minds to get to the right answers. I have been extremely thankful at times, because I have (mostly in past, I hope) done some really dumb, stupid things and didn't end up with consequences that I could have had. Hopefully, that gives me the ability to empathize and NOT be purely judgmental. But in all seriousness, would that mean we should always be silent or make no judgments? The Egyptian midwives disobeyed the order to drown the male babies; God protected them. Many people disobeyed the Nazi regime and helped those doomed to destruction ... some of them met with torture and death, too. I don't think that means that they weren't loved and blessed by God; it is a pretty strong testimony that they would risk their lives to defeat the aims of evil, especially as outnumbered as they were.
Jesus gave us an answer in Mark 12:28 - 34
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.There is no commandment greater than these.”
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
He also told us: "“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18). Even so, the disciples themselves were not perfect in understanding.
"But while knowledge makes us feel important, it is love that strengthens the church. Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much." (1 Corinthians 8:2b - 3)
"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" (Ezekial 18:23)
IDonna, yes, the church should be more involved.. but the churches are shrinking and the problems are growing.. or we are becomeing more aware of the problems.
I aslo found that the problem was the church leader growing up. and being the leader all the people followed him. A couple of instances. A nurse wanted to work in the nursery with the babies. The pastor would not allow her because she was ineligible to be a member as she was divorced. Let me tell you I would have prefered a divorced nurse over some of those other women watching over my baby!
Another, a teen girl got pregnant and her dad was a deacon. The pastor forced him to step down and soon therafter the whole family left the church. Like he had anything to do with it.. I am sure he went home every night and said 'hey, girl.. why not go have unprotected sex as a protest of us not having enough time for you. ' and make sure you do it with a lose boy who will disappear on you as soon as he finds out you are pregnant.
Then, the Sunday school teacher who told me I was wasting my time getting an education, I should be finding a godly man and raising a godly family...
there is sexual abuse and molestation within congregations, I know that a couple of offenders that had been 'rehabed' were allowed to become mebers of the church (but not the divorced nurse)
dadda,
My take on it wa that there was no animal death until after the fruit from the tree of good and evil was eaten. Then all hell broke lose. I also read and understand that angels came down and had babies with humans which created the nation of giants (kinda think this is where greek mythology got its start. gods amung us. ) This all climaxed with Noah and the ark and the flooding of the earth.. which when dried up COULD have been what caused the icecaps, the iceage, and what is not the North and South Poles. Scientist do worry about the ice melting because when it does it will flood all the dry land.
IDonna, I have been extremely disappointed in the reaction of the leaders of two of the churches ... one he was still the member, the other one where MIL is. And I had tried to talk with the people, first. Him and her, I mean. And I didn't try, I did. Civilly, politely. Talked with several men who were willing to sit down with us (for free) and mediate so we could come to an agreement besides his demands: I get out, I take all debts, I get no assets. The wife of MILs pastor said I should leave, obviously I was not happy and could not be happy there,especially with the persecution. The other first was saying I should "get out" because he "won" the house in previous divorce. It says, straight up and in plain English, if someone is off the road, if you don't warn, God will hold you responsible for their life blood. A lot of that in Ezekiel, esp.
Livelive, it might sound weird, I was trying to understand that maybe they "thought" they were plants and trying to hide? Or just disguised? Anyway, it hit me that despite God being "omnipotent" and omniscient (sp?), it seems He gives us some privacy, too. Like he is not staring and invasive at least. "cause he told Abraham he was going to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if the reports were true. And another reason we are supposed to be looking out for one another and not using to advantage.
I have thought about the angels (bad obviously) and how it is sort of weird that we would be able to mate with them and have babies, but then it talks about in heaven being "like the angels" and no "giving in marriage" There is a lot to wrap the head around, mostly food for thought cause I know it's way beyond me. And if angels are already immortal (silly me we are too except for the interruption of death. Why humans but not sinning angels? And why are they allowed to influence us like in invisible state and we wouldn't know it, maybe? I think the mythology idea may be right; it would make some sense. It's said the flood was universally known to all the ancient civilizations. I never thought about the ice caps ... now I will!
I thought maybe Noah picked up the animal burning from heathen (evil) practices, because it said God enjoyed the smell and then saw the source. I read all the different versions I can find but nothing about dead animals and skins from dead animals. So I don't think God was killing them or thinking it wonderful. He said many times through the prophets that he took NO pleasure in dead animals and didn't want them, just wanted the people to not need to make sacrifices.
It just sort of hits me how even if you had the rest of this life to explore and learn about things and people, it would just be scratching the surface. School is sort of cruel they take away most of the real exploring and learning and look forever in books, memorize and fill in blanks. Yuck. No wonder so many geniuses or whatever couldn't take it! Flooding the land ... I bet God has a fix for that but hey, we don't need Him anymore (sarcasm) so maybe if it does, He won't bother? Shivers. People are crazy to think they have it "all" figured out.
Jesus didn't condemn the woman in adultery and made it clear that divorce was result of hard, selfish hearts, most often. But also many times, people don't want the divorce, the spouse does. Or like abortion, the person trusts "the authorities" then later has nightmares and repercussions. Seems all sin is sin and that is what sentences all to death, so how can one be judged for what they can't fix or change? Moses killed a man, David arranged a killing after seducing the wife and so on. I guess that was the point, how the Pharisees were into the rules but not the spirit and their religion made hell on Earth for many as a result. I actually like reading the Bible and keep finding things I didn't know before.
I understand your concern about what to tell your children on the difficult subject of religion. I can only tell you what I did and the resulting effect it had on my own children. Because of my horrible childhood experiences with very strict fanatical religious practices (far outside the mainstream), my main concern was to leave my children with options and a positive feeling about making their own choices were religion was concerned. We were not churchgoers so I had to find a way to inform them on the subject without forcing my ideas on them. As preschoolers, I sent them to Summer Bible School where they learned that God is Love and the Golden Rule and the basics of the widespread concepts of Christianity. I made sure they were not indoctrinated with Hell and Brimstone sermons. As they grew older and learned to think for themselves, I made sure that they were exposed to other religions . . . not by actually going as we did not live in a metropolitian area at the time and such opportunities were limited, but rather by reading and talking about other cultures and religions. My kids are 50% American Indian so we started with those concepts. THen we discussed the differences between Protestants and Catholics. Eventually we widen the scope to include Jews, Buddists, and Muslims. WHen it was age appropriate we broached the fact that religions, throughout history, were used for both good and evil purposes . We talked about Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr. as well as the Atollah and Jim Jones and cults as well as the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. We discussed what THEY thought were the postives and the negatives of each religion. I tried to guide them to question all religions and understand that they can all be tainted by man's self-interested concepts and it is necessary to peal away the layers and look for the kernals of wisdome in each one. All this time we were going to no church. THen I found the Unitarians and discovered their openness to all religions . . . some of which I had never heard of. As an adult my daughter choose to be a Catholic and that faith served her well until she died. My son is more like me . . . not in favor of any formal religion. He is atuned to his Native American roots and has incorporated many of his lovely wife's Shinto concepts into their family observances. Shinto is a Japanese "religion" which is actually more of a calming way of life.
Anyway, Livelivenow, I would calmly explain that there are many pathways to inner peace or "religion" and encourage your children to learn as much as they can about as many of them as they can. Teach them to make their own choices and, equality important, teach them to respect others' choices. As for the discomforting aspects of any one religion and the seeming disconnects and double standards . . . .explain to the children that religion is a roadmap . . . it can be used as a pathway to inner peace and kindness toward others . . . or it can be used as a roadmap to hatred for anyone who has different thoughts and feelings. Explain, that, sorrowfully, humans, being human, do not always live up to their own ideals . . . that each of us has to weigh our own behaviors and strive to live up to the ideals we, individually, hold dear. Help them to see that what matters is not what others say or do, but what they, themselves, think about the benefits of a certain "relgious" way of life and any problematic issues that arise. Explain to the children that what is important is not to look to others' behaviors (religious or otherwise) to find a guide for themselves, but rather to educate themselves on the issues, concepts, etc. involved and to develop their own inner principles that touch their own hearts and minds, and then to look to those inner principles to guide them in life. I hope this does not come across "preachy" and I hope it helps in some small way. Hugs.
It is often times those people who have not been steeped in religion, especially the rule-based, insular and exclusionary types, who respond and with true love and kindness, to those who are hurting or wrong.
I was raised in a Baptist atmosphere and heard plenty of the hell stuff, but what REALLY got me going was something in 1998. We were members of a fundamental church and I was reading all kinds of books (Christian) trying to fix whatever the problem in my marriage was. Nothing was working and it was frustrating ... I am also enough (thank God! and no pun intended) scientifically oriented and grounded enough to appreciate the scientific maxim that a "truth" derived experimentally must yield similar enough results to another experiment, repetitively. It's the same principle we apply in making a chocolate cake (or anything else); you follow the directions, you should get a decent cake.
I also know enough that I WON'T buy into the thought that "my faith wasn't strong enough" yada yada ad nauseum. The pastor who made that pass? I asked him and the elder, many times over the course of the past two years to speak with my husband. He won't ... "my husband 'won't' listen.'" So what? The directions in the Bible are clear, for leaders. Why wold a guy think I would respond to a pass if he doesn't hold integrity for the position? And I could go on and on, but won't. That's the kind of crap, excuse the language, that really messes with people's faith. They are subtly, oh so subtly, put off by leadership and eventually, may give up or hate "God". I am NOT going to pretend I understand WHY about many things ... even if I was the wisest person (I'm not -smiley face!), I think the limits of human intelligence and wisdom pale in the complexities and sheer depth or expanse of reality. It's like even a blood cell, the cell that carries the life sustaining oxygen, and other nutrients and takes the wastes away, those cells aren't even "alive". Nor are most of the cells that are visible ... technically speaking, we see "dead" when we see another human (no wonder so much concern for appearance LOL). Sorry, I just get fascinated by too many things.
I think that one of the important things to realize and maybe to even communicate with your children is that about 65% of people draw their "moral" and other behavior from a stance on getting approval from OUTSIDE themselves, from whoever their "in-group" is. Those who draw from a sense of internal compass are rarer, and though I did not read this, it's likely that the 35% who draw from inside would not be doing so necessarily in a "positive" manner.
I think though, that it is helpful at some point, to know some people and get a feel for their "integrity". For example, I have had lots of different kinds of friends and acquaintances. One was a man who practiced the Muslim faith and very devoutly. I respected him partially because of his adherence to some of the disciplines and conversation... it is something I have seen lacking in the more familiar Christian circles I've seen. I used to wonder why, when we got together with church friends, other than grace, God did not come up as a topic of conversation. Anyway, the Muslim gentleman asked me to marry him at one point and I declined, completely on the basis of his faith. To me, our faiths were both strong and diametrically opposed and there was no way around thinking that wouldn't cause problems. I really didn't think, as a Christian and thinking "this seems like a decent person", that our marriage would EVER face insurmountable problems ... a Christian is a Christian is a Christian. Again, I guess it is some critical thinking, but drawing conclusions from people can help or harm .... a person or a cause. Hard to say how best to put it into practice ... because I'm basically saying that they critique the people they come to know: "do they walk the talk" they put out? Maybe a bit delicate. But we know what a valuable skill that is and how devastating the results can be when we don't. Plus, what the demeanor of the person is. Are they really "getting a benefit" from their faith? I noticed this when my husband was going on about having met his "true love"; thought that is not religion per se, this "true and genuine mature love" had his body language completely uptight, his mood foul and his voice tense ... the two things just didn't go together, especially as it became a very ongoing thing. So someone preaching love that demonstrates a lot of general disapproval or condemnation ... I mean, some questions might be in order, if the relationship is appropriate to it. Anyway, I don't know if that is what QuePasa is saying, I think some ceremonial or behavior things may hold some value in context, but the effects on character and life are through principles and their application. Just that cults can look very positive and sound so, and the people within seem happy and successful at times to, at least superficially so. Oh, I have also talked with my daughters about not going with feelings. Some things in life can stir really intense emotional experience like a high; some people lose "faith" when that high disappears. A person can be on the right path and ... you know what I'm saying.
I know too that although I might not think an interfaith marriage would work, some more so than others, I still can be respectful of others' beliefs and be friends with them, in most cases. I encouraged my daughters to spend time and learn about all kinds of different people (handicapped and different races as well as religions, people from foreign places and different economic levels. I once went out with a boy who asked me while I lived with an aunt; I was going to invite him over on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, til she found out who it was and told me, "No." She said something about "potato peelers" and honestly, to this day I have no clue what she meant. Someone who makes their mashed from scratch 'cause they can't afford the boxed stuff? Why is that bad? I will have to look it up if I think of it.
But I think that maybe(?) that is the crux, getting as much (good) information and knowledge and growing up being raised to have a heart and responsibility. Having humility (though meek does not mean doormat) and self-dignity and empathy. Curiosity. I allow my daughters to question the faith they've grown up under; one has pretty much rejected it for now, the other goes to church but is not super involved outside going to services. I questioned, ever more insistently, my "religion" and through pursuing truth, I have stronger faith, just no "name" or denomination ... and I now consider myself "Christian" still, but don't feel comfortable to go to the places where I was or those that don't seem to have any "real life" to them. It's very uncomfortable at times as I ask am I having false pride or looking for a group that doesn't exist, though there is one that seems to be filled with Spirit, kindness and life at a distance and I maybe need to make more of an effort to get there. Even in matters having nothing to do with, or at least not directly, I think it is helpful to keep questioning ourselves and what we know, or think we do.
I hope you find the peace you are looking for and so deserve. My DNA is largley Irish although my cultural experiences and childhood culture are much more widespread and richly varied. That said, I feel I can comment without offending anyone else who happens to be Irish. "Potato peeler" probably is meant as a slur on the Irish and is suggested by the fact that poor and impoverish Irish quite often had nothing to eat but potatoes . .. . a fact that caused widespread death when the Irish potato crops failed several years in a row . . . that is why so many Irish made their way to the U.S. and then had to endure the "No IRish need apply." insults. So sad that mankind always seems to find a way to hate whole groups of people without even knowing them.