Narcissist Trauma Survival and Recovery Community Group
Support for those anyone who is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist. Together we are much stronger than any of us would be alone. A place for non-judgemental mutial support, advice, and comfort.
Does the N in your life gamble? I still remember our wedding day in Las Vegas, he was upset because he won a LOT of quarters ... but I had suggested the quarters rather than the dollars he was throwing into the machine minutes before ... I had no idea what that portended. And apparently, their treatment of partner is also dependent on where they are in the gambling cycle ... another mass of info I wish I'd had years ago!
Everything here I have definitely lived through ... the worst part is that I STILL can't comprehend those d*mn lottery tickets and such taking over a person's whole mind and motivation ... it blows me away .. but though I was aware of the lottery tickets (just not HOW MANY) and the other stuff ... I wasn't aware of how much he was involved with gambling and apparently, it is a pretty common thing associated with Ns and hard to get any legal help (from my perspective) to protect assets.
Found an interesting CE for Neurologists and psychiatrists at:
http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1162
"Conclusion: the pathological gambler’s own nuclear families are often the target of abuse and neglect. Spouses of gamblers and their children bear the brunt of the stress within the family, experiencing emotional and physical turmoil."
Also noted: "the partners of persons with PG are put at serious financial risk, which may include huge credit-card debts, second or even third mortgages, illegal loans, formal and/or informal loans, loss of rent, or mortgage funds, resulting in homelessness or eviction or misuse of irreplaceable retirement funds or savings. Economic control, such as limiting or blocking access to family funds, can be a form of abuse that is used to conceal and maintain family members’ disordered gambling."
"a woman whose partner had problem gambling was 10.5 times more likely to be a victim of partner violence than if the partner did not have problem gambling ... 87% of problem gamblers ridiculed, insulted, embarrassed, or belittled their spouses in front of their children. Psychological control can be demonstrated by threats, abusive criticism, and unreasonably limiting freedom to family members."
“Children of the pathological gambler are probably the most victimized by the illness. Usually underage, emotionally and financially dependent upon the gambler during the worst of the illness, it is the children who are the most helpless. They hear the arguments, recriminations, apologies, broken promises, insults, lies, and fights. They hear their mother arguing with their father about not having money for food, clothes, or school items for the children... The children of pathological gamblers, growing up in an atmosphere of emotional deprivation, isolation, parental abuse, rejection, poor role modeling, and emphasis on money, are very likely to have equally problem-ridden lives.”
"Research on methods for helping families cope with the stress of living with a pathological gambler in their midst is limited. Much work has focused on how treatment affects the behavior of the gambler rather than on the well-being of the spouse or family. For example, Johnson and Nora found that GA members whose spouses participated in GamAnon did better than those whose spouses did not, but the difference was not significant."
AND THIS! Early conceptualizations characterized the emotional tribulation experienced by the spouse as personality flaws inherent within the spouse.A newer framework, the stress and cope model, suggests that the emotional distress experienced by the spouse is brought on by the repeated, frustrated efforts to cope with the problems brought on by the gambling rather than a personality defect.
Everything here I have definitely lived through ... the worst part is that I STILL can't comprehend those d*mn lottery tickets and such taking over a person's whole mind and motivation ... it blows me away .. but though I was aware of the lottery tickets (just not HOW MANY) and the other stuff ... I wasn't aware of how much he was involved with gambling and apparently, it is a pretty common thing associated with Ns and hard to get any legal help (from my perspective) to protect assets.
Found an interesting CE for Neurologists and psychiatrists at:
http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1162
"Conclusion: the pathological gambler’s own nuclear families are often the target of abuse and neglect. Spouses of gamblers and their children bear the brunt of the stress within the family, experiencing emotional and physical turmoil."
Also noted: "the partners of persons with PG are put at serious financial risk, which may include huge credit-card debts, second or even third mortgages, illegal loans, formal and/or informal loans, loss of rent, or mortgage funds, resulting in homelessness or eviction or misuse of irreplaceable retirement funds or savings. Economic control, such as limiting or blocking access to family funds, can be a form of abuse that is used to conceal and maintain family members’ disordered gambling."
"a woman whose partner had problem gambling was 10.5 times more likely to be a victim of partner violence than if the partner did not have problem gambling ... 87% of problem gamblers ridiculed, insulted, embarrassed, or belittled their spouses in front of their children. Psychological control can be demonstrated by threats, abusive criticism, and unreasonably limiting freedom to family members."
“Children of the pathological gambler are probably the most victimized by the illness. Usually underage, emotionally and financially dependent upon the gambler during the worst of the illness, it is the children who are the most helpless. They hear the arguments, recriminations, apologies, broken promises, insults, lies, and fights. They hear their mother arguing with their father about not having money for food, clothes, or school items for the children... The children of pathological gamblers, growing up in an atmosphere of emotional deprivation, isolation, parental abuse, rejection, poor role modeling, and emphasis on money, are very likely to have equally problem-ridden lives.”
"Research on methods for helping families cope with the stress of living with a pathological gambler in their midst is limited. Much work has focused on how treatment affects the behavior of the gambler rather than on the well-being of the spouse or family. For example, Johnson and Nora found that GA members whose spouses participated in GamAnon did better than those whose spouses did not, but the difference was not significant."
AND THIS! Early conceptualizations characterized the emotional tribulation experienced by the spouse as personality flaws inherent within the spouse.A newer framework, the stress and cope model, suggests that the emotional distress experienced by the spouse is brought on by the repeated, frustrated efforts to cope with the problems brought on by the gambling rather than a personality defect.
Casino gambling is easy to set up and you don't really have to have any money to do it. All you need is credit . . . used to be easy to do when you have filed bankruptcy to erase your previous debts. He spent decades playing the system, gambling on credit and playing one casino against the other as there is a 30-day window between when you make the charges and when payment is due. So he would get $10,000 credit at one casino, lose it, and go get $10,000 at another just before the 30-day window closed and use that money to pay off the original. Then go next door to get another $10,000 to use as seed money to try to win enough to pay off the second "bridge" loan. He has a lot of skill at blackjack and somehow usually was able to play this money switching game to his advantage. Still, his habit was bigger than his pocketbook and he ended up taking a second mortage on his house.
When I met him he owed $170,000 dollars and was still gambling on credit. Of course, I knew nothing. Our third date was a drive from Cleveland to Detroit for a casino visit. I had never even bought a lottery ticket and was completely a babe in the woods about the dangers of gambling. Anwyay, that trip charged a $10,000 voucher at one casino and lost, then went across the street and took out a $10,000 voucher at another casino and won back $22,000. To iimpress me, he immediately paid off the to outstanding vouchers (something he never did again even if he won as the 30-day loan window is/was interest free). So, after a free delux dinner on the Casino, we drove back to Cleveland with a profit of $200 . . . little did I know of how much of a trap it all was.
Next, months later, was a cruise and the cruise ships always have casinos. Days into the cruise, when I suggested that we had spent enough time gambling, the NH started screaming at me, right there. I left the casino and went on deck in the open air but he followed me and kept screaming. Here I was trapped on this boat for a few more days with thousands of people, not knowing which ones remembered me as the lady who was yelled at so cruelly. I cried most of the remainder of the trip.
The NH, apparently afraid that I would leave him made a deal with me. We would take trips to casinos and go on gambling junkets at his whim, but if he lost more than $20,000 he would stop gambling for the reaminder of that year. HE justified this by saying that it would be like "normal" men playing golf . . . with $20,000 being his "gambling budget." Sounded reasonable. He kept his promise exactaly one year. Year two, I quit my job . . . my daughter's termal illness was getting worse, plus I asserted myself by telling him that I was not going to work anymore when he just gambled away the equilent of my tiny salary anyway. We were just living together and he was paying for everything so I didn't feel I had much of a leg to stand on to try to make him quit.
Year 4 of our relationship, my daughter died. I tried to commit suicide . . . partly over her death and partly over the N's treatment of me. Anyway, bottom line . . . he swore off gambling, joined Gambler's Anon. and married me. It has been four years. He has not been in a casion since . . . . however, he cheats . . . . he loses $20,000 or more a year playing in the stock market. Gambler's Anon does not approve but they don't kick him out either. He gets to brag that he has not gambled in 4 years, meanwhile he plays the stock market every day.
Oh, I didn't meantion that for about 10-15 years, before I met him, he ran junkets. These are trips where one person or a company charters a plane and arranges a group rate at a casino motel, then sells individual "gambling vacations" to others and shims a profit, while enjoying free room, food, and entertainment at the casino as payment for bringing in a planeload of suckers. You have to get a license to do this, but the NH somehow qualified despite his lack of cash.
Habitual gambling is a sickness that destroys families. Still, it is not a terminal illness unless the gambler allows it to be one. The gambler knows what he/she is doing. They make the choice to value the thrill of gambling more than their family. Is the addiction hard to break . . . you bet. But, just like alcoholics or smokers . . . if you really value your health, your family, yourself, and your future . . . there are things you can do to stop. In my NH's Gamblers' Anon. group there are men who have kicked the habit after destroying their familes, but who have been clean for 20 or even 30 years. Gambling is a complusion . . . but it is a complusion that one can fight against and win . . . most gamblers are too self-centered to try.
Funny how similar the behaviors are tho as well as the financial out come, which are practically the same!
Casino gambling is easy to set up and you don't really have to have any money to do it. All you need is credit . . . used to be easy to do when you have filed bankruptcy to erase your previous debts. He spent decades playing the system, gambling on credit and playing one casino against the other as there is a 30-day window between when you make the charges and when payment is due. So he would get $10,000 or more credit at one casino, lose it, and go get $10,000 or more at another just before the 30-day window closed and use that money to pay off the original debt. Then go next door to get another $10,000 or more to use as seed money to try to win enough to pay off the second "bridge" loan. He has a lot of skill at blackjack and somehow usually was able to play this money switching game to his advantage. Still, his habit was bigger than his pocketbook and he ended up taking a second mortage on his house.
When I met him he owed $170,000 dollars and was still gambling on credit. Of course, I knew nothing. Our third date was a drive from Cleveland to Detroit for a casino visit. I had never even bought a lottery ticket and was completely a babe in the woods about the dangers of gambling. Anwyay, that trip he charged a $10,000 voucher at one casino and lost, then went across the street and took out a $10,000 voucher at another casino and won back $22,000. To empress me, he immediately paid off the two outstanding vouchers (something he never did again even if he won as the 30-day loan window is/was interest free). So, after a free delux dinner on the Casino, we drove back to Cleveland with a profit of $2,000. . . little did I know of how much of a trap it all was.
At the time Ohio did not have casinos so, next, months later, was a cruise and the cruise ships always have casinos. Days into the cruise, when I suggested that we had spent enough time gambling, the NH started screaming at me, right there. I left the casino and went up on deck in the open air but he followed me and kept screaming. He screamed for about 20 min. before leaving me to go back to the casino. Here I was trapped on this boat for a few more days with thousands of people, not knowing which ones remembered me as the lady who was yelled at so cruelly. I cried most of the remainder of the trip.
Back home, the N, apparently afraid that I would leave him made a deal with me. We would take trips to casinos and go on gambling junkets at his whim, but at the time when he accumulated more than $20,000 in losses he would stop gambling for the reaminder of that year. HE justified this by saying that it would be like "normal" men playing golf . . . with $20,000 being his "gambling budget." Sounded reasonable since we were not married and it was his money. He kept his promise exactaly one year. Year two, I quit my job . . . my daughter's termal illness was getting worse, plus I asserted myself by telling him that I was not going to work anymore when he just gambled away the equilent of my tiny salary anyway. We were just living together and he was paying for everything so I didn't feel I had much of a leg to stand on to try to make him quit.
Year 4 of our relationship, my daughter died. I tried to commit suicide . . . partly over her death and partly over the N's treatment of me. Anyway, bottom line . . . he swore off gambling, joined Gambler's Anon. and married me. Oddly, his debt was still $170,000 as he had lost and won and lost and won over the years. It has been four years . . . he managed to pay off the $170,000 debt and saved another $145,000. He has not been in a casino in four years . . . . however, he cheats . . . . he loses $20,000 or more a year playing in the stock market. Gambler's Anon does not approve but they don't kick him out either. He gets to brag that he has not gambled in 4 years, meanwhile he plays the stock market every day.
We signed our legal separation agreement yesterday. I took $40,000 only and signed away my right to the house ($170,000) and what had been our joint stock account ($145,000). Legally, I could have taken nearly $100,000 and gotten about 2 years of alimony. I probably should have done so. Not my style . . . stupid as that is. Still, my soul is not for sale. I don't want his dirty money. I purchased my freedom at a high financial cost but it was worth every cent that I didn't claim or fight for. In the end, he is the big loser . . . he lost me. Sadly, he most probably will never realize the true value of his loss!!!
Oh, I didn't meantion that for about 10-15 years, before I met him, he ran junkets. These are trips where one person or a company charters a plane and arranges a group rate at a casino motel, then sells individual "gambling vacations" to others and shims a profit, while enjoying free room, food, and entertainment at the casino as payment for bringing in a planeload of suckers. You have to get a license to do this, but the NH somehow qualified despite his lack of cash.
Habitual gambling is a sickness that destroys families. Still, it is not a terminal illness unless the gambler allows it to be one. The gambler knows what he/she is doing. They make the choice to value the thrill of gambling more than their family. Is the addiction hard to break . . . you bet. But, just like alcoholics or smokers . . . if you really value your health, your family, yourself, and your future . . . there are things you can do to stop. In my NH's Gamblers' Anon. group there are men who have kicked the habit after destroying their familes, but who have been clean for 20 or even 30 years. Gambling is a complusion . . . but it is a complusion that one can fight against and win . . . most gamblers are too self-centered to try.
that is how I feel about the N and child support and alimony. I really need the help, but I feel like if I take any of it or even ask I am supporting what I consider a crooked business. I just cannot justify taking money for people who think they are helping kids that is being used so N does not have to work and can travel world w/ GF.
I am going about things in a round about way. Like N will be responsible for paying extracurricular expenses with the understanding that I will not ask for support.
After this is over we still need to be able to hold our heads high.
Funny, his brother is a poker player and lives on cash. Only claims minimum winnings to govn't and makes sure nothing is traceable... He and his wife travel the world too. To bad for my N that he married a woman with a conscience.
Yea, the NH didn't have to claim any winnings as long as he didn't win more than $9,999. at a pop. Taxable limits are lower for slot machines, but he played blackjack or craps. Go figure, how can tax codes be written to benefit such jerks!!!!!
And, I understand about bargaining for non-cash benefits from the ex too. I get to live here for 15 months rent free in order to give my tenant (ex-brother-in-law and uncle to my kids) time to save the money necessary to move out of my condo.
And as you say . . . . sometimes money has to take a backseat to justice, principle, and self-respect. Hard as it is financially. . . that is a good lesson that your kids and my son will respect.
One of the things I learned by quite a fluke last week is this: while he was taking me to Court to get me restricted and supervised, I finally got an attorney (2003). I had just gotten thrown in jail for "contempt" because I tried to get a protective order after yet another round of yelling, screaming and threats when I arrived to pick up our daughters for summer visitation (which he REFUSED the two previous years). I was looking though papers last week and was looking at his bank statements. I came across the only one from 2003 and it covered the time he was supposed to be in Court, defending our children from my abusive and drug addled ways (I wasn't on any meds for like a year and have records for that). I saw an ATM withdrawal for $40 and with a wing and a prayer, I googled the out of state address. HE WAS IN CASINOS, not in Court and I won back my "reasonable visitation". I had also set up dental visits and medical, because I'd checked and except for a root canal on our younger daughter a couple years before (when I saw a big rotten hole in her tooth), they hadn't been to the dentist since 98 or 99, WHEN I TOOK THEM. My oldest daughter by then had 5 cavities needing treatment but he still refused to let me take them, and I paid hundreds of my own money to get the care done. Then got them on state insurance by honestly explaining everything to the caseworker, so then I mostly had to pay only the monthly premiums. I made a report to Social Security about their funds not being used for their NEEDS which was not investigated, but I still have that copy, too.
But what really steams me is that as soon as their checks stopped, he started charging them for their cell phones and satellite service, etc. I paid $111 to have the oldest's gums looked at as they were bothering here and surgery was recommended, but he told me that since she was over 18, she needed to start learning responsibility. This from the guy who spent well over $300 a month for about 8 years for a vehicle, but never owned one ... courtesy of the meal ticket the children have been. When I got custody of the youngest, I waited a couple months then applied to be her representative payee ... they called him and he wasn't even living there but he said he paid the bills so they kept giving him the money.
But I now have PROOF, incontrovertible proof that the abuser accuser was only looking after his own best interests and right before the youngest's checks were getting ready to expire and I was refusing to go out and get more jobs only to have the money vanish, he hooks up with psycho nurse, who happened to have a child who would have been good for about 9 years of dependent benefits paid to his account. And what I really LOVE is that he took me back to Court to do the same thing, with CASA representing the children's interests, they found NOTHING wrong with me, other than I might be "too strict". They asked the Court to be released. Then the next year, the guy that claims me to be a menace invites me back, gets an engagement ring and puts off the wedding, til our oldest was of age. Then, sure as shooting, he files for divorce, I file for provisional and all of a sudden, he is filing emergency petitions for custody BECAUSE I AM AN ABUSER. Wow, no matter what the Court WILL look stupid or someone will have to kill me because NO I WILL NOT LET THIS DIE.
I used some poor judgment dealing with an utterly confusing and invisible problem, but that was a one time thing and seems to have been held against me for the duration.And finding the information dovetails PERFECTLY with the letter the therapist who's seen me almost 10 years wrote ... that my mental health "issues" were a result of him rather than mental illness in me. I have been to hell and back now several times. Going through all these memories is triggering but is also starting to yield a mine full of useful and pertinent evidence. But just wanted to post the info because when I got too close to the truth is when he blindside me with his gang-banging relatives. I'd hate for this stuff to happen to any of you ... especially since there seems to be NO help, even when you have proof of what is going on. Another crusade .... or I could go off and forget it, put it behind. But I think the state is TOTALLY in the wrong when they can have me thrown into involuntary commitment/suicide watch for saying "I want to go home" but I can do NOTHING to protect me and our children from utterly out of control behavior??? And nobody investigates ANYTHING?? The criminals have it made ... I sit here patiently waiting for the law to do its job and he pays not a dime of the judgment and still gets an equitable distribution, after trying to wreak havoc, rescinding an accepted settlement proposal (costing me additional attorney fees) have me thrown out under false abuse claims, etc etc and it all so obviously tied up with money?
$20,000? Quepasa, to me that is psycho (sorry). I don't know what yours made, but I calculated that he was spending like $10,000 year that was trackable. I know he didn't go to an out of state casino and just withdraw $40 to play with. I may be naive, but not stupid. But that amount ($833 month) plus $300 for vehicle (not counting comp/collision insurance) and no trackable travel fees ... that right there ate the money he was getting for our children .... and so I am hoping with all the new evidence, my attorney will do what is right. He also took me to Court, claiming I wasn't visiting in order to deny my Christmas break visitation ... B-I-N-G-O; two days before the hearing (when I was demanding he give my car back but he knew I couldn't get to the hearing, either), he received tickets out west. He dumped our children with someone and took a flight to his casino place ... for 5 days.
You know, I can't even picture explaining the last 15 years of my life anymore ... truth is stranger than fiction ... but why it is all coming together now??