Narcissist Trauma Survival and Recovery Community Group
Support for those anyone who is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist. Together we are much stronger than any of us would be alone. A place for non-judgemental mutial support, advice, and comfort.
The other night I spoke with my daughter after things broke down between us Monday. I think it was Monday; half the time I don't know what day it is, anymore ... seriously! Every conversation we had (tried to) have since the break down deteriorated very quickly, this was no exception.
I can admit that I was naive and I OBVIOUSLY made a poor choice in a spouse, but being blamed for "creating people" and "creating this reality". I can GUARANTEE I WOULD NOT HAVE brought children into this world, knowing what I know now. Don't get me wrong, I love my daughters. I may change my perspective in future, too, if I learn more and gain more insight and wisdom.
But to hear all about "you and Dad", as if I was working with him in some kind of team effort to wreak havoc ... that REALLY wasn't something I can handle hearing. I spent 11 hours one day the other week collecting cans and was so tired, sunburned and sore I could barely walk for days. Just to make sure the car insurance was paid ... and I was STILL $30 short and had to scrounge the change in the car to have JUST ENOUGH to cover it. I've had ticks all over me ... yuck. Got a few things sold, but we are still not out of the woods ... yet.
And to make matters worse, the yard looks like a jungle ... I'm struggling to try to wind a new spring and HOPE then the mower will start. THe other week, this daughter and I spent SIX hours mowing (borrowed non self propel) and only got MOST of the front done ... looks like ghosts or bums live here. The furnace/AC isn't working so I'm trying to troubleshoot whether it's the thermostat, the AC unit ... circuit ... whatever. So it is about 83 degrees and 50% humidity inside.
The light fixture in the utility room blew up a couple weeks ago ... and impossible to see in there ... because way back, half the electric in the house quit working and I never have figured out why I can't reset the circuit breaker and have left it alone ... so we have giant extension cord supplying the living room with power. The only outlet to the utility room is on the same circuit as the blown ... and N put his fist through the screen door I bought and installed before he took off. He promised to fix it ... we all know how that goes. I finally just took it off and threw it out, never realizing I was going to be a hostage for so long ... and that would have provided light and a cross breeze to cool the house ... HE didn't like it because of the direction it opened from ... so he smashed it. Just got a notice from the gas company that "foliage" is blocking the meter and making it hard for those people to do their job ....
Haha and LOL ... I wish I could send someone (who the HELL is in charge of this disaster, anyway?) a letter, telling them that their handling of my life is making it hard ... oh, I so wish :-)
So back to the conversation .... I tried listening, tried asking some questions, agreed or empathized where I could (and maybe was in the wrong, whether there was reason or not). But it was ... you don't care about my day, what's going on in my head, my job ... and when I asked her about a friend of hers who was in the hospital, she refused to talk about her because I supposedly made comments, which I knew I hadn't. I got to the point where I was feeling abused and felt more like I was listening to him talk (she went through a spell of sounding like that a lot for a while, but it had gone away). I finally told her I can't do this anymore, not right now and said goodbye. About 15 minutes later, my phone was going crazy with texts.
We texted back and forth furiously for a while. She was telling me she was FU'D and would never be "normal". That she has no empathy and so on ... and that it's not about money, but about OUR relationship.
I told her she might not be "normal" but that isn't necessarily "bad". I also told her again I was sorry about what I had said, that my statement really had nothing to do with her per se, but I could see where it could be triggering in that way. A lot more, but basically after the first ten minutes of texting, she was sounding more like herself.
I then learned she had "almost" walked out on her job that day ... didn't learn more til yesterday. She told me that one of the dogs had gotten a medication overdose that could have been fatal and the employee who actually did it tried to blame her (and she was not even there at the time). Apparently, there are some other problems ... the woman who own the "doggie daycare" is ill and there is nobody "in charge" of overseeing the operation ... she was going to go in early for her shift and talk with the "managers". We talked a bit about how she was going to handle it and whether she "should" stay; I pointed out and she agreed that some of the issues were sort of like the "family dramas" she's grown up with and who needs more of that?
After her shift was over, she called me and sounded optimistic but realistic. She told me the managers are going to watch the employee who gave the meds to the dog, cause other things are going on besides that. I asked her how she was going to handle interactions with that person and how it would make her feel ... she said that person seems nice, overall, and since the managers had made it clear (by staying late and keeping an eye on them both during closing down) what was going to be going on, she hoped it gave the other person a "wake up call". I praised her; from a management standpoint, I do think she did a great job.
I told her that if I am not asking and she needs to talk, she needs to just let me know. I told her that I DON'T bring stuff up or pry, because for one thing, I don't want to trigger some big emotional storm ... and then she has to work, or something. That I am here for her; if I'm not "hearing" it's not that I don't love her or care, just that I'm stressed too and not always capable of close attention as I'd like to be.
I talked a bit about the fight at that point, too ... I went through a period with her older sister (almost 10 years ago); when they came to my house, she'd start raging and get physically aggressive, shouting and even breaking things. I had to do gentle take downs and "contain" her (basically loose restraint with my body). When her rage was spent, she would burst into tears. I'd come to realize that she was carrying one hell of a load of stress, pain, anger ... and God only knows what all. I know she could not express any of that with him or relatives ... and from developmental psychology, I'd remember that is one of the functions of the mother that has to do with attachment as well as separating and becoming an individual ... that I have to take all these emotions and basically (if I remember somewhat) allow their expression (without letting a rampage take place) and still demonstrating acceptance and love of her. I know with her, over time, it worked.
I reminded my younger daughter about what her sister went through and how in some respects, it's very similar. It's been harder with her, though, because I am exhausted and I am pretty angry about the whole COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY AND DESTRUCTIVE situation. When I went through it before, I had "a life"and the results from my accomplishments. So I realized that I'll have to try to get a better mind-set ... imagine those days or whatever helps ... the future. A while back we already had realized that if we both get emotional, nothing constructive takes place and we NEED to back away and get our heads straight.
Sorry such a long post ... there is just so much to deal with ... and like a couple people said on my last post, she has a lot of stresses too ... and I know I often (enough, at least) feel like I am FU'd, too :-). Even though I KNOW, the treatment gotten from the system and of course, her relatives, who most people would think would be supportive (NOT!!) ... makes me feel "non-existent" or "not worthy" at times. i don't mean I feel like that.
In fact, I am infuriated that all of this stems from a social worker who doesn't apparently know a thing about mental illness but made pronouncements about me being that and a druggie ... without supporting evidence ... and thanks to her idiocy, my daughters were handed over carte blanche, for further abuse and neglect ... and punishment that continues to this day and will for some time. And I can say this, too, had I been "mentally ill" or even a "druggie"; that person was so contemptuous and cold to me that I feel sorry for anyone with problems she comes into contact with. Also a couple of police officers, but in their case, I can chalk their incorrect assessment up to ignorance, as I have researched into police training and they probably misinterpreted the situation; not surprising, since I saw and heard them being manipulated as well. But when a social worker makes a "recommendation" that the "alleged" party take custody to protect from the "reporting" party, I think a bit more screening ... like maybe contacting the treating physician and speaking with the reporting party, not JUST the alleged party and their mother ... as I reported a direct statement made by my child. and I did not accuse him of anything, as I had no reason to. This is what I get ... and my daughters, too ... for fulfilling a legal obligation in this state. Pah!
But glad this is almost "over" and glad that both of my daughters are getting poison on, truth in and even though we are "fighting" there is progress, even there ... and I am learning stuff, too :-)
I can admit that I was naive and I OBVIOUSLY made a poor choice in a spouse, but being blamed for "creating people" and "creating this reality". I can GUARANTEE I WOULD NOT HAVE brought children into this world, knowing what I know now. Don't get me wrong, I love my daughters. I may change my perspective in future, too, if I learn more and gain more insight and wisdom.
But to hear all about "you and Dad", as if I was working with him in some kind of team effort to wreak havoc ... that REALLY wasn't something I can handle hearing. I spent 11 hours one day the other week collecting cans and was so tired, sunburned and sore I could barely walk for days. Just to make sure the car insurance was paid ... and I was STILL $30 short and had to scrounge the change in the car to have JUST ENOUGH to cover it. I've had ticks all over me ... yuck. Got a few things sold, but we are still not out of the woods ... yet.
And to make matters worse, the yard looks like a jungle ... I'm struggling to try to wind a new spring and HOPE then the mower will start. THe other week, this daughter and I spent SIX hours mowing (borrowed non self propel) and only got MOST of the front done ... looks like ghosts or bums live here. The furnace/AC isn't working so I'm trying to troubleshoot whether it's the thermostat, the AC unit ... circuit ... whatever. So it is about 83 degrees and 50% humidity inside.
The light fixture in the utility room blew up a couple weeks ago ... and impossible to see in there ... because way back, half the electric in the house quit working and I never have figured out why I can't reset the circuit breaker and have left it alone ... so we have giant extension cord supplying the living room with power. The only outlet to the utility room is on the same circuit as the blown ... and N put his fist through the screen door I bought and installed before he took off. He promised to fix it ... we all know how that goes. I finally just took it off and threw it out, never realizing I was going to be a hostage for so long ... and that would have provided light and a cross breeze to cool the house ... HE didn't like it because of the direction it opened from ... so he smashed it. Just got a notice from the gas company that "foliage" is blocking the meter and making it hard for those people to do their job ....
Haha and LOL ... I wish I could send someone (who the HELL is in charge of this disaster, anyway?) a letter, telling them that their handling of my life is making it hard ... oh, I so wish :-)
So back to the conversation .... I tried listening, tried asking some questions, agreed or empathized where I could (and maybe was in the wrong, whether there was reason or not). But it was ... you don't care about my day, what's going on in my head, my job ... and when I asked her about a friend of hers who was in the hospital, she refused to talk about her because I supposedly made comments, which I knew I hadn't. I got to the point where I was feeling abused and felt more like I was listening to him talk (she went through a spell of sounding like that a lot for a while, but it had gone away). I finally told her I can't do this anymore, not right now and said goodbye. About 15 minutes later, my phone was going crazy with texts.
We texted back and forth furiously for a while. She was telling me she was FU'D and would never be "normal". That she has no empathy and so on ... and that it's not about money, but about OUR relationship.
I told her she might not be "normal" but that isn't necessarily "bad". I also told her again I was sorry about what I had said, that my statement really had nothing to do with her per se, but I could see where it could be triggering in that way. A lot more, but basically after the first ten minutes of texting, she was sounding more like herself.
I then learned she had "almost" walked out on her job that day ... didn't learn more til yesterday. She told me that one of the dogs had gotten a medication overdose that could have been fatal and the employee who actually did it tried to blame her (and she was not even there at the time). Apparently, there are some other problems ... the woman who own the "doggie daycare" is ill and there is nobody "in charge" of overseeing the operation ... she was going to go in early for her shift and talk with the "managers". We talked a bit about how she was going to handle it and whether she "should" stay; I pointed out and she agreed that some of the issues were sort of like the "family dramas" she's grown up with and who needs more of that?
After her shift was over, she called me and sounded optimistic but realistic. She told me the managers are going to watch the employee who gave the meds to the dog, cause other things are going on besides that. I asked her how she was going to handle interactions with that person and how it would make her feel ... she said that person seems nice, overall, and since the managers had made it clear (by staying late and keeping an eye on them both during closing down) what was going to be going on, she hoped it gave the other person a "wake up call". I praised her; from a management standpoint, I do think she did a great job.
I told her that if I am not asking and she needs to talk, she needs to just let me know. I told her that I DON'T bring stuff up or pry, because for one thing, I don't want to trigger some big emotional storm ... and then she has to work, or something. That I am here for her; if I'm not "hearing" it's not that I don't love her or care, just that I'm stressed too and not always capable of close attention as I'd like to be.
I talked a bit about the fight at that point, too ... I went through a period with her older sister (almost 10 years ago); when they came to my house, she'd start raging and get physically aggressive, shouting and even breaking things. I had to do gentle take downs and "contain" her (basically loose restraint with my body). When her rage was spent, she would burst into tears. I'd come to realize that she was carrying one hell of a load of stress, pain, anger ... and God only knows what all. I know she could not express any of that with him or relatives ... and from developmental psychology, I'd remember that is one of the functions of the mother that has to do with attachment as well as separating and becoming an individual ... that I have to take all these emotions and basically (if I remember somewhat) allow their expression (without letting a rampage take place) and still demonstrating acceptance and love of her. I know with her, over time, it worked.
I reminded my younger daughter about what her sister went through and how in some respects, it's very similar. It's been harder with her, though, because I am exhausted and I am pretty angry about the whole COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY AND DESTRUCTIVE situation. When I went through it before, I had "a life"and the results from my accomplishments. So I realized that I'll have to try to get a better mind-set ... imagine those days or whatever helps ... the future. A while back we already had realized that if we both get emotional, nothing constructive takes place and we NEED to back away and get our heads straight.
Sorry such a long post ... there is just so much to deal with ... and like a couple people said on my last post, she has a lot of stresses too ... and I know I often (enough, at least) feel like I am FU'd, too :-). Even though I KNOW, the treatment gotten from the system and of course, her relatives, who most people would think would be supportive (NOT!!) ... makes me feel "non-existent" or "not worthy" at times. i don't mean I feel like that.
In fact, I am infuriated that all of this stems from a social worker who doesn't apparently know a thing about mental illness but made pronouncements about me being that and a druggie ... without supporting evidence ... and thanks to her idiocy, my daughters were handed over carte blanche, for further abuse and neglect ... and punishment that continues to this day and will for some time. And I can say this, too, had I been "mentally ill" or even a "druggie"; that person was so contemptuous and cold to me that I feel sorry for anyone with problems she comes into contact with. Also a couple of police officers, but in their case, I can chalk their incorrect assessment up to ignorance, as I have researched into police training and they probably misinterpreted the situation; not surprising, since I saw and heard them being manipulated as well. But when a social worker makes a "recommendation" that the "alleged" party take custody to protect from the "reporting" party, I think a bit more screening ... like maybe contacting the treating physician and speaking with the reporting party, not JUST the alleged party and their mother ... as I reported a direct statement made by my child. and I did not accuse him of anything, as I had no reason to. This is what I get ... and my daughters, too ... for fulfilling a legal obligation in this state. Pah!
But glad this is almost "over" and glad that both of my daughters are getting poison on, truth in and even though we are "fighting" there is progress, even there ... and I am learning stuff, too :-)
I am going through something similar with my 20 yr old daughter. I am now realizing it may not resolve for years until she matures more and can understand adult and parent perspective. But worse, I gave up so much for my kids, especially her as she was very high maintenance, and I get no appreciation and no thanks and no consideration for my needs as a person. Though, recently, she has started to acknowledge that the divorce might not all be my fault (my ex is the N/P). So, I caution you against giving up too much of yourself when you have done so much already. I honestly question whether my daughter might have done better if I had not helped her get through high school and she had to repeat a grade and mature more.
During our custody dispute, when she was in high school, the evaluator said she couldn't be abused because she did not show the signs and was doing too well. Four years after the divorce, she has dropped out of college and made some questionable life choices as well as decided to avoid me and responsibility as much as possible. Now I guess you could say she is showing the signs.
I realize she just has to go through this too, and reach her own realizations. I just hope she does.
But I want to encourage you, dadda, and all those hurting because of the pain our children can cause us, to hang in there. As long as you do what you say you will do, and keep healthy boundaries, offer support and love, it will all pay off. A wonderful mother/ daughter relationship will happen. They just have to grow up to be able to truly comprehend where we are coming from. I have definitely seen a positive change in my daughter since she is now a mother, too. It's given her a whole new perspective. :)
Having gone through this wringer once and getting all the blame (and I actually had forgotten that I had filed for divorce only because he had filled out the papers and was threatening me ... again), I had learned a few things ... but I first had to really throw out all the stuff I was getting from so-called "experts". I had a licensed therapist tell me one time to "just leave her" in the hot car, locked and all the windows rolled tight and on a hot summer day ... just go into the building and leave her. NOPE. Sure maybe she would have come out, but what she was doing was communicating, or attempting to. If she'd been standing on a ledge and threatening to jump, I sure wouldn't have done the "walk away" routine. I do research and examine what I learn in the light of logic ... and my own and others' experience (that I can trust). SO far, that has done me a whole lot more good in this insane scenario.
And I know that I have to "let them fly"; strengthen their own wings, break out of their own shell. Some of it is hard and painful, more so than in a reasonably normal family or even just a dysfunctional one. Because of all the lies told about me and the realities, it's been hard for them to trust. At some level, she must (now) realize that her father scared her ... and now she has all these student loan responsibilities and has had one hell of a year. And all of it completely unnecessary. And when her car has broken down, etc ... he hasn't even responded to her call or text. Honestly, that is not even something I can relate to. Occasionally, I miss their calls or texts because I don't get a lot, so I don't always have my phone "right there".
You are right about it being harder to do what we say ... than to say it. I make very few promises but will go to nearly the ends of the earth to keep those I make. You're right on the boundaries and all, too, I know. The hard part is that for many of us, this is sort of uncharted territory. Sometimes I HAVE to speak up in a way I never would, had I had a "normal" husband/ex. And something from my own life: there are a few things that used to cause me shame that have been resolved, or at least to a good degree, from my past. I will likely never talk about those with another person, because there are some things that most people would have a difficult time seeing the way I do now. I realize that I likely don't know some of the things my daughters have experienced and it is unlikely that they have been able to work those through.
So I guess what I am trying to say there is that we may not get the "real scoop" on what is driving them emotionally, but some of that lashing out may be testing whether we accept them and love them no matter what. I still remember my father yelling about something ... couldn't tell you what, though ... at me one day and I just couldn't take it anymore and started yelling back; I had been raped a couple weeks before and dealing with it on my own. To his credit, my father shut his mouth at that point. He had to go to work, but sent a woman he worked with to come and talk with me and try to help. Sometimes, that is what I feel like I end up doing (because I am human and hurting, too); getting wrapped up in my own self and problems and forget I have 25+ years of experience (and hopefully, some wisdom) on these young ladies, in terms of dealing with "problems".
Thank you all for your responses; it helps to be able to write some of this out. I am glad for the encouragement and support. And Escape, I think you are doing the right thing, as much as you can.
Letting them know you ARE there but not "invading" as the N might do, not deserting, either (as the N will do, at some point, unless there is "usefulness"). Being able to tolerate emotions, but not necessarily attacks or abuse or the idea that we "make it up to them".
I must say, though, it feels or seems sort of weird to hear that we have had horrible experiences and traumas ... around here, I feel like I must be a "scammer" to have ever sought help ... or even reliable information ... from "authorities", especially those supposedly experts on DV and similar. I've gotten that from my therapist, too, that it is sort of awesome that I can hold a "lucid conversation". Just odd ...
Yes, I felt "lesser" with the DV folks for not getting beat up, I guess less real, less deserving of help from them. Though they were very nice and gave me the help I needed.
On the other end of the scale, when I first went to therapists, before I filed for divorce, they all commented on the same thing: "Do you know that you tell me about all these horrible things in a total monotone voice?" I guess the therapists found my dissociation and feeling of being removed or no longer affected by these horrible things very disturbing. I had not been disturbed, but the fact that they were got through to me. I needed to make some changes.
It is surreal though, and never anything I would have thought would happen in my life for almost the first 40 years.