Narcissist Trauma Survival and Recovery Community Group
Support for those anyone who is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist. Together we are much stronger than any of us would be alone. A place for non-judgemental mutial support, advice, and comfort.
My internet service crashed, but I wanted to post this ... it is a nice explanation of "projective identification" . From my reading, it is a very COMMON defense used in NPD. Papers I read in past, by therapists, talked about how the therapists would often find themselves affected AFTER sessions. Personally, I wonder if the feelings we "pick up and contain" for them don't last a while after the "break-up". I say that because when young children are learning empathy, they use the same mechanism ... they put the "bad feelings" into mother and then, observe her, to see if she can handle them ... to see how it affects her, etc. Not sure if I have that exactly right, but after they see it is "safe", they are able to take the feelings back ... but in NPD, they don't. I think that is where the "splitting" comes into play ... the bad is split off and put elsewhere.
At that point, I get lost, though, because they obviously haven't REALLY "gotten rid" of their bad "parts". But I wonder, sometimes, if maybe the break from them IS harder, because many times, even therapists and other professionals don't realize til later they've picked up and contained some of the N's feeling states and dramas ... but a lot of emphasis on it being EITHER the aggressor or the victim parts of their drama they project into others.
I'd love to hear other ideas or discussion, or if anyone has more info ... once in a while I have felt the REALLY "foreign" feeling states when I knew it couldn't be me ... it was WEIRD.
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Unconsciously Inviting Extreme Bonding Patterns, Both Positive and Negative:
• This may well be the most important source of alarm bells warning you
that you are in the presence of disturbance: how much projecting the
person does and how hard it is not to be ‘contaminated’ by his projections
about you. He may, for example, have such a hard time bearing his own,
unconscious feelings of aggression that he pushes them out onto the
surroundings. Those who come near him pick that up, energetically. They
themselves become either oddly angry or unaccountably afraid—and they
can easily mistake these for their own feelings! This dynamic is called ‘projective identification.’
If you’re not familiar with the concept, I suggest you learn more about it.
www.voicedialogue.org
At that point, I get lost, though, because they obviously haven't REALLY "gotten rid" of their bad "parts". But I wonder, sometimes, if maybe the break from them IS harder, because many times, even therapists and other professionals don't realize til later they've picked up and contained some of the N's feeling states and dramas ... but a lot of emphasis on it being EITHER the aggressor or the victim parts of their drama they project into others.
I'd love to hear other ideas or discussion, or if anyone has more info ... once in a while I have felt the REALLY "foreign" feeling states when I knew it couldn't be me ... it was WEIRD.
********************************************************************************************************************************
Unconsciously Inviting Extreme Bonding Patterns, Both Positive and Negative:
• This may well be the most important source of alarm bells warning you
that you are in the presence of disturbance: how much projecting the
person does and how hard it is not to be ‘contaminated’ by his projections
about you. He may, for example, have such a hard time bearing his own,
unconscious feelings of aggression that he pushes them out onto the
surroundings. Those who come near him pick that up, energetically. They
themselves become either oddly angry or unaccountably afraid—and they
can easily mistake these for their own feelings! This dynamic is called ‘projective identification.’
If you’re not familiar with the concept, I suggest you learn more about it.
www.voicedialogue.org
***************************************************************************************************************************
"narcissism and survival anxiety lead to them taking control of their relationships with the victims. This they did by splitting objects as all good or all bad. The unwanted and bad in the self was denied and projected onto another psychologically willing object in the belief that these belong to the other (Klein, 2005). According to Freud (1921) this process can be so effective that the bully lives as if these bad parts no longer exist. This was carried out to impress the authority in the bullies’ mind (Hirschhorn, 1997), which becomes a projection of dependence onto their good colleagues and leaders in the system. The bullies experience a sense of triumph from having exported the bad, and are left all good and the hero in the minds of their significant other. But, because in reality the bad remains part of the system’s unconscious (Stapley, 1996; 2006), their defences are only temporarily effective – when the anxiety returned,the next outburst took place.
The bullies’ script became a hysterical and egocentric modification of character to externalise the pain. The projections were performed in a powerful, hostile,domineering and alienating manner (Czander, 1993). Interpersonally, the victims were now dragged into the bullies’ control drama as targets for the strong and aggressive projections, which resulted in their identification with the projection (Campbell, 2007; Klein, 2005). The bullies’ effective cleansing of their own unwanted parts and placing these in the victims’ psychic system as containers, changed their thinking, feeling and acting behaviour as if it belonged to their victims (Stapley,2006)."
http://www.sajip.co.za/index.php/sajip/article/view/994/1155#6
As a child of a Nfather, I feel other people's feelings strongly. When someone is angry at me it really throws me off of my course because of the processing of the situation and so I don't readily defend myself because the person is giving me emotional pain.
I believe that I exercised this ESP muscle because my Dad made me responsible for his feelings and I had to gauge his moods and had to pussyfoot accordingly.
So this is why mental/emotional/psychological abuse is so debilitating. I understand that I am "trained" to be victim of N abuse. That is why I willingly dated a N for healing,... and great sex (as long as my boundaries were not crossed too badly.) I played with fire and I have walked through it to the other side.
Today I called my boss and stuck for myself regarding a difficult situation at work. I can finally say confidently that I have Self-worth and practice it :)
My Ex would get really defense when I (and now my son) call him out on a broken promise or unacceptable behavior. He finds a way to twist the words and project the responsibility and the behavior on to you, that your the one who is in the wrong. He does anything to project the fault onto anyone but himself.
In my early years with him. I did. I took it all on. So much so I thought I was going insane. I realized I knew him better than I knew myself. And worse, I lost myself. When I realized what he was doing to me, I stopped taking it on . I let it be his issue. It still makes dealings with him difficult.
He is doing it with my son now. It makes me want to puke when I hear it. But my son is smarter than him and he learned some awesome tools to help him process through the Rainbows program.
When the guy gave him a Go phone for Christmas so that the kid can call him anytime he wants, it was after months of talking the kid up about a smart phone he for him. That he was going to bring it up for his birthday. When he got here, he said, Oh sorry son, I lost it or something. haha. Dont worry I'll get you one for Christmas.
The phone is functional. the guy put $35 on the account and said that each minute per call was $.20 and each text was $0..20. I asked how he was going to handle it. He told me to just refill the card. I called him out and told him that he needed to. He said :Fine, just let me know when it gets down to $10.
So the kid and I did just that AFTER the guy texted the kid incessantly. THEN, he called the kid on the land lie to tell him that his wife changed the rules that the card would be refilled the 25th of every month.
My son was crushed. He made the argument, that he did what he was told to do AND he even asked his dad to conserve the texts since he was texting so many one word texts. The idiot ex then tells the kid to quit texting so much with his friends, that he must conserve the money. This said to the kid who was watching the balance like a hawk My poor son was telling him that he mostly texts him, that he texted with me a few times and his grandparents ( and my friend- asking for help to get me a birthday gift.) That he does not text with his friends.. "mostly because you dad are running my balance down." The guy got defensive so the kid cut the call short. He went to his cell phone and shut it off and kept it off until the 25th.
And when your son, as you pointed out, holds up their end and IS responsible ... well, even as an adult, I swear my head is spinning sometimes. Go through that enough and it's, "What is the point of trying?!" By then, hopefully some of the illusion is replaced with reality ... and your son is surely lucky to have you!
I just "love" that triangulation stuff they do, too. I remember the last few months before he took off, he was pitting me against our daughters and them against me. And of course, he was acting like a jerk toward me, most of the time. For a while, after everything came to light (except my near complete understanding - of him), I actually thought maybe he was in such a bad mood because he felt guilty ... LOL, wasn't that at all ... I did go "insane" and certainly didn't want to go back! Of course, he kept using all his old (and apparently few) tricks, and they weren't having the desired effect on me ... I shudder to think, though, that I was getting ready to look for an apartment the day before he took off ... because it was that bad here and I was feeling depressed and thought it was "me". I was so giddy and HAPPY when I learned of his affair, in terms of how all the hidden drama (and not so hidden) was affecting me ... us.
You are right, it is still difficult ... but it is SO nice that when the truth comes out, you learn you just have to be more aware ... and never count on "him" for ever doing the right or responsible thing!