Oh honey I feel you! I have a lot of thoughts but no answers )-: I just got interrupted so I'll have to share them later. (((HUGS)))

It is such a fine line to walk between reaching out, showing love and support, vs. putting pressure on someone and pushing them away. Especially when he doesn't tell you what he wants.

I think that I went too far in trying to keep connected with my son, and ended up chasing him away. The more I tried to approach him, the more he withdrew--kind of like trying to catch an animal but chasing them away instead. The best advice I can give there, just based on my own mistakes, is to offer him words of support, gifts, or opportunities to see each other, but stay as neutral as possible about whether he accepts them or not--i.e. make it clear that it is truly his choice and whatever he chooses is OK with you. (Which of course may be true only intellectually but not emotionally for you so far--but this can be an act of will and still be sincere, if that makes sense.) Maybe reach out regularly but not every day. Or in a way that doesn't require or expect a response.

I hate to say it but I expect this will be a long journey for both of you and probably not a smooth one. I'm still on it myself with my son and I don't know where we will end up.

Josh Coleman's book Rules of Estrangement or his Facebook group or webinars may have helpful insight and support. https://www.drjoshuacoleman.com/

Your son is still so young, but of course it's not an option for him to be in your house. Do you still have any legal responsibility for him?

We pay for his apartment, ( we got a 2 bedroom so his dad and I could see him more but of course always excuses why we couldn’t come over so basically stopped trying for that because I didn’t want to pressure him) and we also pay for all his bills (phone, insurance).
I was hoping you would respond as I remember you were also having some issues with connecting with your son. I appreciate your advice and will take it. End of the day you can’t force someone to want to spend time with you or talk. I’m just so bummed. He’s so young and has cut everyone out. I will keep checking in with him but not pressure. Hopefully he’ll realize we just really miss him.

Are you worried about his mental state or welfare too?

I’m not to sure. Honestly I think he’s doing better now that he has a job - something to look forward to everyday. He spends all his time with his girlfriend and sees one other close friend. I know they go to the girlfriends parents house for dinner, which makes it harder because he won’t come to ours when invited. I could understand if we were standoffish with him but we have never been anything but supportive and loving. I think at least anyway. I do worry about his pot smoking but he gets angry when I ask him so I just don’t anymore. I’m thinking with his job he will have slowed down but not sure. My daughter is going on a day trip Saturday so I texted my son earlier today to invite him to hang out (we live on an acreage) and stay for dinner. He said they might be finishing moving so I texted dad and I can help if you need. That was 9 hours ago and still nothing. I will take your advice and not text again and hopefully hear back. I’m just so sad and lost. I miss my son so much and I need him to know how much I love him and I’m trying so hard to build a relationship with him yet I feel he’s not even giving me a chance. His oldest sister moved a month ago to start med school and he has yet to answer any of her calls or texts. Just so bummed. Having said that I remember what you said in an earlier post regarding the rock you have. After my daughters counseling appointment today we went to a stone and jem store. I know have one to so hoping that can help when I’m depressed.

Yeah, it sounds like we're in a really similar space. My son will get together with good family friends who have known him since he was a year old, but not with us. I have such mixed feelings when I hear he saw them. I'm glad he has them for support. But I'm so jealous, they get to see him, and I don't. It's not fair. And I sure miss him. But like my husband says, I don't miss his insults and attitude. So if he's not over that yet, it's probably still better not to see him.

My best guess is that both of them don't want to see us because it brings up shame that they can't bear to face. Others that they didn't hurt so much are easier to be with. I guess for men in particular, shame and hurt turns very quickly into anger. And that anger gets directed at us. Which, I remind myself, is better than him self-destructing.

Wow so similar…. My son when we do see him is always such a jerk. Always angry and always blaming me for something. It’s like he’s ok with everyone else but not me. Which is bizarre because I’m his number 1 fan.

My sons probation officer said that this is normal as she finds they push you away to see how far they can go before you say you’re done. She said then they come back and say “see told you they don’t support me”.

I wonder what the mentality is there. I guess I’m not going to spend my time procrastinating and just support and love him.

Does your son see any of your other family members? Hubby or other kids or keep in touch with them? Just wondering if it’s you he is holding a grudge with or the whole family? Does your daughter see him at all? I remember they went for counseling together but do they keep in touch at all?

My son stays in contact with our youngest son, mostly by messaging on social media. They did see each other a couple times this summer. I think my daughter is in contact with him by social media too. Their relationship is "none of my business" according to both of them so if they've seen each other (which I doubt) I haven't heard about it. With my husband it's about the same as me, except without as much personal blaming.

I wish so much I could give his therapist an earful, or better yet get her insight. I don't know if he's still seeing her or not, my guess is not. She was the professional that I felt understood our whole family's situation the most and treated us with the most respect from the beginning. But now I feel betrayed by her too, that she let him end up in a place where he's blaming things on me instead of taking responsibility and making amends to me--which was supposed to be part of the course of treatment that he started.

If he has to go through an angry phase to get to maturity and/or healing, so be it. But my greatest fear right now is that by blaming others and not facing his own faults, he is backsliding to a place where he could offend again, if not legally than at least by having an abusive personality.

Like your son, it seems like he's a wonderful guy to everyone else. Either that means he's going to turn out OK, or it means he is compartmentalizing his life again, the kind of person that seems like a great guy to everyone except the few that know his dark secrets.

I've had more time to get used to this rejection than you. It's more of a constant dull ache and less of the sharp pains I used to have, and that it seems like you're having now. As far as how much to try to contact your son, maybe one guideline you could use is whether you're doing it because you miss him and feel rejected (maybe time to back off) or because you are keeping track of his welfare and trying to model respect and healthy relationships.

It's interesting to hear his PO's perspective. I'm sure she's seen this all before. Does she have any perspective on whether they usually come around eventually?

I've been thinking more about my son today, based on his attitude in a recent communication. I'm starting to seriously wonder if it's more important to remind him of/confront him with the truth and his need to take responsibility and put his own suffering into perspective. If that pushes him away, if it delays our fragile progress at reconciliation, so be it. I don't really expect him to change his views or his attitude yet but, as a friend once advised me on a similar matter: "Go ahead and tell him. He won't listen. But someday when he looks back, he will know you cared enough to tell him the truth." I have a reply written but just saved it as a draft...

I know exactly how you feel. I would absolutely love to say to my son “what is your problem? Why are you being such a jerk to us when you’re the one who did this?” I would love to go off on him about all the negative stuff he’s put on our family and that he’s the one who shattered us. But I’m scared to push him even farther away. I guess you’re right when you say if that happens so be it. Hopefully when he’s older he will realize. Or it could go the other way and
you might be able to actually get through and break down a wall. I like you don’t know the right thing to do.

Did you and your husband do any counseling? Not family but just the 2 of you? My daughter is doing counseling at the sexual assault center where we live and has been hounding her dad and I to go talk to someone. I never have as I just feel so ashamed and I don’t want any judgment… I’m sure they wouldn’t but I can’t get over the fear of telling a complete stranger our situation. I’m just curious if you have and if they have any insight on how to approach your son.

I wish you luck if you decide to talk to him. Please let me know if you do and how he responds. If it’s negative, at least you tried. Really the way I look at it there wouldn’t be any change as you don’t see him much anyway. It’s a hard decision to make - to hit send. Whatever you decide to do will be the right thing for you personally. It’s just so frustrating that we are the ones being punished for their actions.

Today I'm leaning more towards going slow. Maybe set some basic boundaries but don't go too far. I'm thinking of messaging a couple men on another board who have been through a similar thing as my son when they were younger and can look back on it with a little maturity now. I remember one of them mentioned on that board once that my posts had opened his eyes to what he put his family through--"I never thought once about that while it was going on; I was so miserable myself and felt the world was being unfair to me." So maybe he'll have some insight. Also I'm thinking about another friend's advice at a different time: "You can always say something to someone later, but once you've said it, you can't take it back."

This is all so confusing. Sigh...

Yeah, tough place to be to not know what to do.
I agree once you say something you can’t ever take it back.

I did ask my son before sentencing why he seemed to always be mad and blaming us when he’s the one who did this. He said at that time he didn’t mean to, it was just hard to be around us and to come home because it made him sad and more depressed of what he’d lost and did to our family. I did understand, but now 3 months after he’s been released we’ve resorted back to the same old same old.
I do understand why our boys are doing this but how do you break the barriers? If you get any advice from the other boards let me know. I’d love to try to nip this in the butt before it gets to far gone.

I got to talk to some people this weekend. They haven't quite been in our shoes but have some life experience to draw from. The most helpful suggestions I got:

1) Ask our sons how they think we can help them the most. Even if they don't know the answer yet, it shows we are there willing to help but on their terms. If they do suggest something and it's not way out of the ballpark, then we can show support by doing it.

2) Think of how they're acting as the young adult version of a toddler tempter tantrum. They are overwhelmed with what life is throwing at them--even if some of it was their own doing--and they are emotionally out of control. At any age, people can't listen to reason if they are emotionally out of control. So about all you can do is remain as calm as you can, try not to get sucked into it, and be there for them, ready to support when they're ready to take it. Easier said than done whether they're 2 or 20!

Those were both helpful for me. I'm also leaning toward just keeping my mouth shut for now. There seems a slim chance I would be able to know enough of what is going on to say what he needs to hear, and even a slimmer chance he would listen if I did say the right thing. And the risk of saying something that would set him back and/or turn him further away from me is high. That's for me, it might not be appropriate for you.

((HUGS)) again

Thanks for the insight. I do agree for me as well it is not worth bringing up with my son. I know what his personality is, and he is very easy to pop off. His anger comes very quickly, even if I haven’t finished saying what I wanted to, he only hears what he wants - and conversation over.

I guess we just plug along and throw little bones out there for them. Let them know we are there and leave the rest up to them. Thanks for posting this, as as much as I’d like a quick fix answer, there is no quick fix about any of this.

Take care and keep in touch. Keep your head up and know you are doing all you can. Sometimes as moms we think we should be able to fix everything, as we did with them growing up. However this is out of both of our hands, and I know for me that is very hard. I’ve always been one to take charge and lead. Hopefully they realize that and how much we love and miss them. I’m on this group and a couple others every day or two if you ever just want to vent. Have a great day and enjoy what you can before the snow comes.