I'm haven't read the book, and I don't have time to. But I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

Books like this are good for a starting point, and to recognize our own issues.

The thing is this. None of us are perfect and we all come with baggage. When does my baggage, become someone else's manipulation?

If someone grew with their parents using shame to keep them in line, and they've got internal shame issues.....is it "manipulation" for them to use shame on their partners?

And the victim thing. So who's the victim if both people feel hurt?

Last year I was trying hard to understand my ex's tactics, and asking "why" a lot. Like you, I was doing some reading. I read on your profile that your STBX is an alcoholic. Several things on your list are typical alcoholic behaviors - lying, denial, blaming others, and probably more. The e-book that changed my life (I learned about it here on DS) is called "The Alcoholic Relationship Survival Guide", from a website called empoweredrecovery.com. It doesn't really answer the question of "why", but it's very validating for people in that situation.

You're right Patti, I'm not perfect either. When I read the list of manipulation tactics from In Sheep's Clothing, I took a hard look at my own behavior too. I could recall occasions where I'd said some of those things. But not too much, because those types of thoughts and perspectives aren't my style. And I'd done just the opposite when it came to 'guilt-tripping', instead I protected his fragile ego.

Your point about my baggage becoming someone else's manipulation is SPOT ON. I'm naturally wired to be a perfectionist and I'm discovering the flip side of that coin is that I'm overly-sensitive to feeling guilty and/or selfish - which is why I tend to 'over-perform' and act self-less. I witnessed my mother doing this all her life and now both my sister and I have repeated the pattern (and I see it in my son and daughter as well).

In regards to my STBX's behavior, if it was just an occasional stumbling onto a manipulation that leverages my baggage, I'd agree that it's just a normal course in relationships. But after reading the book and being able to identify the tactics, the very next conversation I had with my STBX, 3 minutes into the conversation he was doing the guilt-tripping thing (and we weren't even fighting) - and followed it up with some 'impression management' (I'm such a good guy and always subordinating myself to others'). Specifically, he'd just returned from driving 5 hours to drop our son at camp and says "Drop off is the s#!&ty part because he's anxious about being away from us. You get the good part at 'pick-up' because he's all excited to see you again and tell you all about camp."

Yes, in fact that would be true. Except the STBX didn't express a preference and had volunteered to do drop-off. And he seems to forget that the previous 4 years of camp, I did drop-off more than the STBX and a couple of times I did both drop off and pick up (even though the STBX is a stay-at-home-dad and that's really more in his job description than mine).

And then during our very next fight (after I'd read SHEEP), it was if he had a set of queue cards with the list of manipulation tactics and he'd just jump from one to the next to the next and so on. He really didn't say much of anything that wasn't on the list.

I know you haven't read the book, but in it he explains that Character Disordered people seek out others who are 'over-conscientious' and sensitive to feeling guilty - because they are easy prey for manipulation tactics.

I definitely need to work on moderating my sensitivities around this. I have a list of homework for these types of things and am glad for the reminder - I just added this to the list.

You pose a really good question about if it's what someone grew up with, "is it manipulation for someone to use shame on their partners?" My opinion is 'yes'. It's silly to refer to the golden rule, but really, treat others how you want to be treated. I've always tried to follow that simple axiom.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

11Christmases, I just bought that book you recommended. It sounds like there might be more helpful tidbits for me there and maybe it's something less controversial to have my kids read too (because In Sheep's Clothing takes a pretty judgmental stance on manipulators).

Thanks!

I am waiting for the book also here are some things I am realuzing now being married almost twenty years. The repeating patterns. He's managed to get through image care to this point but at a certain point if you aren't getting better than you are repeating the same destructive pattern than what used to work for him is not working for me anymore.

I'm a Christian I love my husband and family but I'm realizing my husband will not change. As a Christian I don't believe people can't change or that my husband is a hopeless case but instead of choosing to change he is just working hard to keep his cover so He can keep doing what he wants to do. I don't know how much is intentional he was emotionally and physically abandoned by his alcoholic mother and his dad was a narcissistic person who he some what looked up to and lived with most his life. I am finally realizing that he is making me crazy and all the normal married stuff doesn't work or apply although practicing submisdion and respect has limited the fighting between us.

I have young children and come from a divorced home. I'm not interested in putting myself or children in a bad situation since he does provide for us (although financial chaos is regular). At this point I just need to be more aware so I can survive and not end up in a phsyc ward. I'm thankful so much for your posts and opening this up for me. Also I find it hard because most people even therapist I've seen want to paint the picture as better than it is or see my husband as not as bad because he us good at PR, and I have to admit before educating myself I did the same thing to my best friend when she complained about her narcissistic husband. Now I know we are not crazy.

I think you may be misunderstanding me.

I'm not saying that he's not doing something or everything on your list. I don't know him, I have no clue.

What I'm saying is that he may be just trying to get through the day himself. And can't (or won't) see past his own issues to see how he's affecting you. And it's that Seeing and Knowing the affect of the behaviors...that make them manipulative.

Until then, they're just coping behaviors.



Put another way; I teach my kids this. That life is all about coping. That alcohol is a fantastic coping mechanism, if it wasn't there wouldn't be a million alcoholics. Problem is, that it doesn't help you actually get past the issue you're having. It won't pay the bills, get the door fixed, make your relationship better...etc, etc. For one day...it's great. Using it past that...not so good (understatement). There are millions of ways to cope, and mental health is knowing and using dozens of them.

And then facing the hard stuff, and dealing with it.


So his baggage, could just be his baggage. Which doesn't mean that you should be sticking around and trying to fix it.

Or put another way, since years and years have shown that your best efforts to fix it haven't worked...is there anything to be gained in continuing?

I hurt for him, you hurt for him. That hasn't helped. Prolonging the fall...is just dragging more people down with him. He's better off crashing, then you and your kids being mentally healthy enough to have a friendship with him in the future....than everyone ending up hating each other's guts.

GoodProvider, I see your original post was in August but I just joined your club (thank you for telling me about it!) and read it today. My H does the same "poor me" routine when there is the slightest criticism or even when there isn't but he perceives there is with his twisted thinking. I read In Sheeps Clothing at your recommendation and I put that behavior in "Playing the Victim". My H does it ALL THE TIME and now that I'm aware of it, it's driving me nuts but at least I know what's going on (and I'm getting out soon!).

We have two kids, 9 and 4, both boys. I was showering this morning and I locked our bedroom door because my 9 year old has a habit of just barging in if the door's not locked. As I was getting dressed I heard someone try to pull the handle and then knock. I said "who is it?" and it was my H. I let him in and he said "what I'm not allowed in here?" UGGGGH I had to bite my tongue as I patiently explained that our 9 year old will just walk in if the door isn't locked. Meanwhile my H locks the bathroom door every day when he showers, so he is entitled to total privacy but I have to justify it for myself.

Sorry if I digressed, I loved the book In Sheeps Clothing and it made my world with H make a lot more sense. I will be reading more books recommended on here. Again thank you for inviting me!