Ah, the game playing of divorce--I remember it well. My ex used to send proposals that were just laughable; it was obvious he wasn't consulting with his attorney.

Hang in there! Sending hugs!

I am in the same place as you right now. The dreaded negotiation stage, of the divorce that will never end.

The STBX sent in a laughable proposal. I reacted and sent a text to him stating "This is your proposal...seriously. You're the one that traded trust and love for lies and deceit."

He in turn sent a counter proposal to my attorney requesting I "cease and desist" all derogatory (I consider my self contemptuous over derogatory...semantics) text messages. So much for NC, oops. Turns out my STBX has a friend with benefits that is a paralegal helping him write his proposal(s).

Unfortunately my state is no-fault. I hope your evidence helps you in your state yorkieluvr.

LOL My EX thought EVERYTHING was his. Since I didn't know ultimately where I was going to end up living I suggested we divide the household stuff afterward. I did list the things that I knew I was taking because they were mine before we married. Then when I bought a house with a yard and moved, I asked for the push mower, he has a huge cub cadet which I we didn't list in the division of property. Any way the asswipe made a big stink and told me I had to pay him for it if I wanted it. I just hung up on him. He kept calling back I didn't answer and eventually he left a message apologizing and saying he over reacted and of course I could have the mower. I never said thank you, I just took it. There was no reason to be a jerkface. He got what he wanted....a life without me telling him what to do (I demanded I was the only woman in his life). So why should he be so greedy? Another time he yelled "you think this is like buying a car Misred!!!!! I assure you it is not!" when I turned down an offer. We shared a lawyer and when I told her what he said she laughed and said, "yes....it's exactly like negotiating for a car."

Yorkielover, I suggest don't leave any loose strings. I spoke to a woman today and she and her EX still own a house together and every once and awhile he harasses her about money. She is remarried and rents the house out. She said she wished she had no ties to him anymore.

My stbx thinks everything is his too, although I worked full time and sometimes 2 jobs to help make a life for ourselves. So much for that. Now I'm working on making a life for ME and my girls. Screw him... send him back a proposal that mirrors his. jerk

Misred brings up a good point. I'm still tied to the ex with this farm and it's the only thing he can be vindictive about. I can't get the mortgage statement at the end of the year. I haven't received the escrow statement for this year. The one that tells me what the new note will be for next year. The new coupon book that I need to send in with my payment.

The ex was great about the property settlement until after the divorce. Then the games with my life started. He's vindictive and mean spirited. Did he really think I would share him with another wife? He called his cheating doing "dumb shit". I don't think dumb shit includes another woman in his life.

If you can laugh through some of the negoiations that's good. Laughter is certainly better than tears. If it's tears or laughter you need to acknowledge what you are feeling and then try to move forward.

OMG do all these guys read the same freakin book or something. It's like the stupid jerks handbook " How to ditch out on your family" Volumes 1-10. My stbx just packed his clothes and some of his tools, bathroom stuff, a few cd's, his laptop. the i-pod the kids and I just got him for x-mas, and all his beer in the outside fridge threw it in his truck one day when I was at work and the kids were at school and drove off.In my state that's total abandonment and since he didn't contact any of us even his kids for the first 2 months he was gone anything left in our home was legally mine. When I had to move out of our home due to finances i'm a teacher and make a quarter what he does I had to pack move and now pay for storage every month for all our stuff that doesn't fit in my apt.

When he finally decided to respond to the court papers the ONLY THING he wanted to dispute was that he wanted the BIG BARBEQUE, AND THE POOL DECK FURNITURE. Why he lives in a ghetto studio apt 10x smaller than mine?????? Forget the fact that he didn't fight me for Custody of our SON he wants custody of the big barbeque. Does that make any sense to anyone???? Trisha is right LAUGH all you can because in the end YOU WILL BE THE ONE WHO'S LAUGHING LAST ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK.......

Now that I've had some time to let it sink in.. and had a conversation with a great friend - who reminded me that it's all about the negotiation - I feel a little better. I'm sure his attorney advised him to go for the whole enchilada and work our way down from there. And I knew that - just needed to hear it from my friend.

4 - I live in a no-fault state too. Nobody cares WHY the divorce is happening. Just split everything 50/50 and go our separate ways. Problem is, he wants me to take 100% of the debt, he keeps 100% of HIS retirement, wants 50% of MY retirement and ME to pay HIS attorney fees too!!!...That math just doesn't compute...just proves my theory that all he wanted from me was the paycheck.

I will say he needs to be very careful about pushing me too far... cause I've got ammunition that could potentially prove to be very bad for him - outside the divorce. I don't want to go there, but I can play hard ball if I have to.

I've been following the 'no contact' advice so wisely given here. I'll let my attorney respond - that's what I'm paying her for. I just really have nothing to say to him.

You are entitled to a share of his retirement. A QDRO attorney handles that, your family law attorney will take care of that.

Sit down with a pad and paper...ask yourself a simple yet challenging question "what do I want" keep him out of your head for a time and write down everything you want. What YOU want, not what you think he'll agree to or that your mother/friends/co-workers will approve of. Look past right now and into the future. Where do you want to be in 5 years, 10 etc...Once you write it all down, and be detailed about it, then you'll have your counter proposal.

Now is the time for us to take care of ourselves. Good luck. We are all cheering for you.

Since this is the initial deal, of course he is high balling for himself and low balling you. It's part of the scene and doesn't really mean anything. YOur lawyer will make a counteroffer that is above what you expect and somewhere down the line, your ex will end up paying closer to what he should. No one ever thinks it is enough, by the way, but for now it is no good for you to get upset or your feelings hurt because he is being a rat. Think of it as business and keep the emotions out of it as much as possible. Hang in there.... vent here...Hugs...

YORKIE, you're gonna have this! All I can say is -- REMEMBER: EVERYTHING is negotiable -- even in a 50/50 state.

Keep that "trump card" close to the vest for now, but make sure your attorney KNOWS whatever "dirt" you've got on him. You can use it to your advantage if push comes to shove.

My now-X kept saying "Judges don't care about adultery" when I filed with Adultery & Abandonment as Grounds. And THEN, when he hired attorney #3, they filed a counter claim of "Voluntary Impoverishment" on ME! My attorney laughed until I thought she was going to fall out of her chair! She had NEVER heard of such a thing -- especially when the stbx earned in excess of $150,000 a year CONSISTENTLY for the five years prior to leaving and we had ABSOLUTELY NO DEBT!

Needless to say, the term "voluntary impoverishment" didn't ever make it out of the starting gate. And during the ONE sit-down negotiation with both of our attorneys present, when the stbx started yapping about me -- "she doesn't NEED that big tractor" -- my attorney looked him straight in the eye and asked, "So exactly WHAT are YOU going to do with that tractor, Mr. B? You live in an apartment on Green Street with NO LAWN and only two parking spaces which you already use. Are you planning to park that tractor on the front steps or what?" End of discussion.

I can look back now on all the "proposals" he fashioned and could write a book on just that, it was so ridiculous! Ditto when he "proposed" that the one horse, Strollin' Nolan, was "his" -- my attorney asked him WHERE he planned to keep him. He answered, "Well, he will stay on the farm and she will have to allow me to come out there with our granddaughter to ride him." Zoa shook her head, took that RED PEN out from behind her each and made a big red X through that paragraph. "That's NOT going to happen, Mr. B." And then she produced the original Bill of Sale that I had received at the time we had purchased the horse. I really didn't remember that my name had been on it, but when searching through YEARS of sales receipts and other paperwork, I had found it. THAT was a moment of SWEET VICTORY!

As far as JustSpiffy's remark about "No one thinks it is enough..." she is correct. My attorney told me early on "No matter how much you come out of this with, it is NEVER ENOUGH to make up for the betrayal." She was right. My therapist told me the same thing -- and it's because money and things cannot heal that wound. BUT THEY SURE HELP!

Hang in there, kiddo, and DO NOT DISCUSS any of this with your stbx WITHOUT YOUR ATTORNEY PRESENT. He will just get you upset and the whole thing will be counter-productive to your healing.

There is huge difference between dividing property that you own, furniture, cars etc and money assets, i.e. retirement accounts, pensions, and 401ks. IF you really get into it, the content property has to be appraised by an appraiser agreed upon by the court, and most people do not do that, they come to terms, The best plan is for you to list out what you each want and try to come to an agreement. I tell people figure it out, are you going to spend 1200 in lawyer fees to get a couch worth 500? Try to agree on items..I always use the example of my ex did not want my jewelry, and I did not want his 12,000 worth of drum stuff.. we called that one even. I bought him out of his half of the house, and kept most of the contents. Some people forget about autos. My ex had a new Honda, and I did not want that, but I did insist that the cars be valued and the difference, 7,000 in value, on my side of the roster, paid out to me in a credit in our investments. Some friends thought that was petty.. naw, 7,000 is 7,000 and I had a much older car. This is business.

As to QDRO's which means a Qualfied Domestic Relations Order, it is means to divide pensions, retirement money, 401ks, 403bs, etc. If you have these assets, the court approves a firm, which is a consultanting accounting firm to divide them after you and the lawyers and the stbx come to an agreement on how the division is going to work. It is complicated and if you have multiple accounts, and it will take time after you divorce to get it all moved.. if you have these accounts.

There is no 50/50 in divorce. There are 11 community property states where you start with 50/50 and work off that. I live in one of those states, and it does make it better starting point. Divorce is about negotiating and compromise, something many of us could not do during the marriage! No fault is about grounds for divorce, it has nothing to do with division of assets. More people should pay attention to getting what they need to move on, financially and less about the emotional side. I tell my clients this is for some of you the largest business deal you are ever going to do, fall apart after the divorce, stick to business and pay attention. Not that the anger is easy or the betrayal. Keep the business side that, and the emotional, get a therapist.

I could have papered my office walls with settlement offers from the ex. They start with half of his pay for life to I get only half... or nothing! He loved to put non-cohabit agreements in his, that no one could live with me! I then to make trouble would write back is that men only or can I have a woman move in here? In this state there is no such agreement, which means you can't co-habit in a relationship and get alimony! It is not 1950! Nothing is set in stone until you, he, the lawyers and the judge agree and sign it. Buckle up, this is a long ride and you have to not let these minor offers insult you or get to you. Save the anxiety for the big stuff. I used to say he can't insult me anymore and if he wants to tell everyone I deserve nothing, let him. I will take more than my half.... I did! Hang in there, this is just the start, and believe all of us, don't get worked up over things that may not happen. Let your attorney do his job, that is why you hire one! Very best to you.

One thing that you can do is list out all property and items you want in the house and take photos of it. If you agree, you don't need photos, but work on the list. This is one of the things I help people with and it keeps a person busy. Be pro-active and organized, it also gives a sense of control and less time to dwell on the emotional. Make a list of what you need to do on your side in divorce. Are you going to be moving or selling? Do you have 20 years of stuff to go through? Financial papers and taxes to gather? You would be amazed how better you feel to do something you need to do.! My .50 tip.. I had just typed the prevous post and. one of my clients just called and said I did what you said last night and feel better.. went through all her books and kept the ones she wanted and is donating/selling the rest. She will be moving into a condo after divorce! Sorry I an so long winded this a.m.!

OMG. Reading all of these posts, I feel so lucky that the man I divorced was so civilized. In the beginning, we were doing so well with everything. When I look back, I realize that he did his best and his integrity was not too bad. Other than one bank withdrawal without my knowledge, all went fairly well. It wasn't until he got his GF that things got ugly. Suddenly he was different. I think she changed him. Is there a GF involved?

I worked full time throughout the whole 24 years of both marriages. My ex only worked a full time job for the last 10 or so. He did work before that but musicians dont bring in steady incomes. Anyway....when we got back together before the 2nd divorce we bought a little house to start over in. The agreement was...he paid the mortgage payments and I took care of the other bills and groceries. When he wanted out the second time he was furious that I would want to get bought out of the house. Since he paid the mortgage he felt it was his house...I hadnt contributed to it at all therefore I have no claim. I pointed out that I paid all the other bills...he said...I would have had to do that anywhere I lived...lol...idiot! See...this is the mentality we are up against. Big Hugs...Kathy