I can understand what he is saying. To us, to "die" is to cease to exist, but you can die and still exist in another form, such as Alvin transformed. The leafs on a tree die in the winter, but in spring , at the same spot, a new leaf is formed. Is it the same leaf? No., since we saw the other fall off the limb. But what did the leaf leave inside the limb to form another leaf> I personaly feel all living things cease to exist in the same form when they die, but can exist in another form. Then we get into the soul again,,,,,,I will have to check out this Rosenberg.

OK, I had another thought. We wonder if we have life after death, or if there is, but I think people are hung up on "will I have a life after death" thinking that the life , if this is possible, will be like the life they just lost, and that to me is wrong. I do feel there is life after death, but we as people would be transformed . Our souls never die, because they are "us". The body is just a shell to help us get around here. Our mind is not our soul, it is part of our brain, and functions as long as the brain does.

It will be interesting to learn the basic philosophical arguments pro & con. Raised as a very evangelical southern Baptist, there was absolutely no philosophical discussion even allowed as part of my religious training growing up. Today I feel so many of the things I was taught are extremist at best, or just plain wrong. So I am having a do-over.

This is hard to talk about, but that's what I am here for, so here goes...

I have been in acute respiratory failure several times. Mostly, I just slide slowly into it, but once went from OK to almost dead in 3 hours. Went to bed with a cold, woke up with so little breath I could not talk to 911, just dialed. When the EMT's arrived, they could hear no sound of air moving in my lungs & just started madly pumping drugs into me. There was about 10 minutes there when I could not seem to breathe at all & felt sure (rightly) I was dying. And the level of panic I felt was off the charts. I do not want to be that afraid again - whatever death is or is not. So while I understand I can't truly know, I also realize we mostly fear that which we cannot understand. I am hoping this study effort/group will help me - even a little - to not feel that level of fear again. I need more courage than I have to live or die with this disease.

I'd not normally reject a theory out of hand - but physicalism or monism doesn't play well in my book. The argument given for it places mankind no better than a really smart flatworm or a porpoise with legs.

I believe that I am comprised of two parts, the corporeal (my body and physical mind) and the non-corporeal (my soul). I believe I exist for a reason other than consuming energy, procreating and dying on this planet. That the link between my body and soul can and will be broken when the appropriate time comes. My body will be dead. I will not. Of course, what happens after that is an exercise for the student :-).

Hugs,
Dennis

OBTW - The flatworm really is a special critter that can do something we can't - you cut one in half, you now have two genetically identical flatworms. Both alive and well. Think about that in relation to physical immortality. I suppose that the flatworm would have a good reason to be a monist...

'"The Nature of Persons: Dualism vs. Physicalism"

1. "Physicalism" is the "theory" that we are just a body with the brain being a part of the physical. thus if the body dies so does the brain. = gosh that is easy; kill the body & the head will die! (quote form hunter s. thompson "fear and loathing in las vegas")

2. that got me contemplating then the definition of the "mind" vs. "soul"?
2a) i assume we are considering mind and soul as the same thing?

3. the ameoba's transforming & the leaves of a tree giving birth i consider as not applicable to the dualism theorybecause they are separate life forms altogether; just as my children are separate from me both physical & mind/soul.

so, heres "jarca's opinion/thought"==
"Dualism" seems to be the only way I can contemplate the question "is there life after death" as we have defined death as "the end of the body". Which means I must have a seperate mind/soul.

(so much for me sitting & watching LOL---but consider this as you guys have got me thinking (uh-oh! LOL)

Jarca, it is good to think, and to consider where we are in this vast universe. I agree with Dennis, that I am more than the leaf or the amobe, or the flatworm, because I was made to think and reason and love and all that.
I have only had one respiratory failure, and thank God Mark was here because all I could do was whisper 911, I could not breath and I could hear the EMT's from far away talking and moving me but it was like I was in a trance or something. I was so scared. This was after I was dxed with stage 4 copd. I snuck a few cigs and it almost killed me..

The thought of death is scary, because it is the unknown, and I also have grown up to question some of my religious teachings. But I will never lose faith that there is a Superior deity out there and I will continue to live as promised. I will not throw my beliefs out the back door because Professor K. said we can not talk about it.

We have to have hope that we are the greatest of creations and we will see life after death. Not life as we know it here, because this is the earthly realm.

That is just my opinion,

LOL you knew i'd have to get thinkin & put in my 2 cents didn't you.

interesting that so far we all believe in dualism; as they say, "there are no atheists in a foxhole" and those of us on the board are kind of like in the same "foxhole" (((HUGS)))
---this will get interesting as Prof. K whole point is to change our minds---i wonder if his will change when faced with his own mortality.

(ps. i also had a hard time with religion as i was taught it & went thru a time in life where i needed "an adjustment", but never could i look at a sunset & think "this" is all nothing)

I worked for years as the manager for a large group of emergency physicians that staff a dozen hospitals. Jews, Christians, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhists. Every single doctor believed in God in some form or another without doubt. They all said they had seen too many miracles to believe otherwise. And that this knowledge is what made them able to treat certain kinds of cases, like child abuse, without going completely crazy.

That said, if there are those among us here who do not believe in divine beings, you are welcome to voice your thoughts. We practice tolerance here.

I agree. No one here is trying to change anyone's mind like Kagen. Here we can say how we feel with out fear of anyone saying that is the wrong way to feel. I guess my religious doubts started a few years ago when I really began to do research and realized organized religion is just that....You go, you sit, you listen, you sing/pray, you leave....and I felt like there has to be more then this ritual , it was so "organized" ,
It is almost like there should be more......and there is.

I agree about the doctors, and feel we have to believe in something greater than ourselves, or like Jarca said, how can you look at a sunset and say that is it, we are just molecules, ...we are un important...so where we may never prove something for sure, the hope and belief that it is true is what makes us unique and keeps us going. My opinion only......

Hugs to all

This group is awesome. It has me thinking a lot. Thank you CaitsMom for starting it.

I am not a dualist. I think we were made from star stuff and we will return to star stuff. And I am very happy about that. I think that's amazing. Star stuff. How great is that?

To me life is crazy-wonderful! Wow, I'm here. I have helped create 4 new and separate lives. Each day is kind of magical, and each living thing is awesome.

I also grew up in a super religious family. Ugh, some of the stuff I thought I believed makes me want to throw-up. Like I was better than everyone else because my religion was the only true one. And one day I would become a goddess if I lived like this and that and this and that. That I was hand-picked by god to come to my specific family and on and on. Shivers.

I am enjoying and not enjoying the lectures. It is hard for me to wrap my head around the way philosophers think and argue. I don't think I'll be much good at it, even by the end of the class. But thinking about life and death is good for me. Right now I'm mostly not scared of death but I am scared of getting sick and hurting.

So glad we're in this together. Hugs.

glad you joined us deegran! i also am having a hard time listening to the lectures (he does drone on) so i took the weekend off "from school" ;)
"i can really relate to where you say you're not scared of death but scared of getting sick & hurting"~~~wow! you worded how i feel exactly. my biggest fear is not the death--it's getting to the death.
(& today i'm still enjoying life so i don't want to go today if i have any choice)
....isn't it amazing how "others beliefs" seemed to have made us all question religion, as we were taught, to some extent?
however, i feel spirituality & religion are 2 separate things---hence my ability to believe in dualism after my religious teachings.

An adage from another organization I happen to belong to: Religion is for people looking for a god. Spiritualism is for those that found one.
Having an up-close in-your-face personal relationship with your Creator can have little to nothing to do with organized religion. Hasn't for me.
I've found that He provides us with opportunities and events allowing us to continue to be a useful member of society in addition to giving us lessons on how to live without fear and pain. We see there are medications and other things that can be done to make our path easier - plan for them and make sure that they are available when the time comes. Resting on our laurels and assuming/hoping that others will do it for us well contributes to our uncertainty about tomorrow and thusly our fears. Not a good thing...

Hugs,
Dennis

excellently worded dennis :)
i tend to agree.
not only do my spiritual beliefs give me peace, so does my trust, durable power of attorney and other paperwork that is in place if i can't care for myself at some point.
having those things in order gives me comfort, but i also know my plans can change in an instant as i truly am never in "control". so i plan as best i can, then pray for the stregnth to endure what i need to.
tomorrow our next discussion starts...back to Prof. K :)

caitsmom-I don't believe in God and I still believe that miracles are possible. To me miracles are occurrences that we simply don't have logical explanations for and don't understand. That does not make them any less "miraculous" to me, I just don't give credit to God. Atheists are not very liked in the US, matter if fact they are one of the most hated group in this country, mostly because they are misunderstood. I think that may be a reason that doctors would not admit to being an atheist , they might be afraid of patients not trusting them.