For anyone in this group that may read this, it was a letter sent to my parents.   We had a phone conversation, and they were saying that God creates people for the purpose of being evil, and then they gave what they believe to be Scriptural evidence for that in Romans chapter 9.  My purpose in posting this here was not really to share it with anyone, only because the group is basically dead, not that I mind if anyone reads it.  I just wanted to save it in here because it is a place that I can easily retrieve it, because saving documents in Word doesn't always work out on my computer.   BUT if anyone wants to read it, all are more than welcome.  It is mainly just my summary of Romans chapter 9, and what I believe it means.  There is some other content here as well, but that is the gist of it.  Anyway, if anyone does read it, it's 5 pages long, so just a heads up.  Feel free to comment or ask questions.  For anyone that might read this, enjoy:

Mom and Dad,                                                                                                                                                              2-10-20

I’m not writing this to change your mind about anything.  As you said it takes the Holy Spirit to do that.  But I did want to give you my take and understanding of Romans chapter 9.  I told you that I understand it differently than you do.  You said you know how Pentecostals think.  I’m not sure if you meant that I’m being brain washed or not.  I wasn’t sure what exactly you meant by that comment, but  I don’t think I have heard anyone else’s viewpoint on this passage, it just what I have studied on my own, and the conclusions I have drawn, and I wanted to share those thoughts with you.  (All of my quotes are from the New Living Translation unless otherwise noted):

So to start out with, in my Bible Romans chapter 9 is titled, “God’s Selection of Israel.”  So do I believe God selected specific people to carry out His plan?  Absolutely.  But let’s look at what it says here very carefully, and what exactly that means.  Paul starts out by saying that he is telling the truth, and the Holy Spirit confirms it. His heart is filled with sorrow, because his kinsmen (the Israelites) are not following God.  He says he would be willing to be cursed and cut off from Christ if it would help to save his fellow people. 

Then he goes into an explanation of who those people are, and what they had.  They were the original people chosen by God to be His adopted children.  God revealed His glory to them.  He made covenants with them and gave them His law.  They had the privilege of worshipping God, and He gave them many promises. 

He goes on to specify in some translations who he is talking about: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  In the KJV it just says, “our fathers.”  Paul tells us that Jesus came from this blood line, as far as His human nature is concerned, and that Christ rules over everything. 

Paul tells us in verse 6-8 that not all of Abraham’s descendants are considered to be Israel, only those that came from the promised child: Isaac.  Then it goes into the story of God promising Abraham that Sarah would conceive and have a son.  When Isaac was grown, his wife Rebekah had twins.  And it does say that God chose Jacob over Esau, but it does not say that God created Esau for the purpose of being evil.  There is a prophecy there that Esau would serve Jacob, but it does not say that God created them to war against each other, or that God created one of the twins for the purpose of practicing evil. 

Then Paul asks the question about God possibly being unfair by choosing one over the other?  Paul says, “Of course not.”  He goes on to say that God told Moses that He could show mercy to whomever He chooses.  God’s mercy can’t be earned.  We can’t work for it, God alone chooses who He wants to show His mercy to.  So it clarifies here in this verse that by choosing Jacob, God was showing him mercy.  It doesn’t say God was showing Esau contempt.

 Before the cross, God didn’t have mercy for everyone.  He only had mercy for His chosen people.  God’s mercy was only for those that were in covenant with Him.  Everyone else was excluded from God’s promises, and covenants.  I believe that is exactly what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 2:12 “That at that time [before the cross] ye were without Christ, being aliens from the common wealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.”  I believe Paul was talking to non-Israelite people in the book of Ephesians, and he was telling them that before they cross they didn’t have access to God.  In other words, God didn’t show his mercy to non-Israelite people prior to the cross.  And I believe that is what Paul was saying in Romans 9 as well, that God chose to show mercy to Jacob, his covenant person, and that it was not extended to Esau, a non-covenant person.   

Moving on to verse 19 where it says God chooses to show mercy to some, and He chooses to harden the hearts of others, let’s compare other passages with this one.  2 Timothy 2:20-21 (NLT) “In a wealthy home some utensils are made of gold and silver, and some are made of wood and clay.  The expensive utensils are used for special occasions, and the cheap ones are for everyday use.  (21) If you keep yourself pure, you will be an honorable use.  Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the master to you for every good work.”  So here it tells us that we have a choice in how God will use us.  We can keep our hearts pure, and God can use us as vessel or utensil for good work, or we can rebel and God can use us for other purposes. 

In Romans 9:17 Paul says that God told Pharaoh that he was appointed for displaying His power, to spread His fame, and in verse 18 it says that God chooses to show mercy to some and to harden the hearts of others.  Does this say that God predetermined before the foundation of the world that God would harden Pharaoh’s heart and use him for the purpose of destruction?  No, it doesn’t say that.  It say God told Pharaoh.  When did God tell Pharaoh this?  Was it before he was ever born, or was it after Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart towards God’s people? 

If you go back to the story of Moses and Aaron going to Pharaoh and asking him to let God’s people go, what was his initial response?  That story can be found in Exodus chapter 5.  Moses and Aaron simply asked if the Israelite people could take a 3 day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices to God.  Did Pharaoh comply?  No, instead he made the working conditions for the Israelites impossible.  Instead of supplying the straw for them to make bricks, they now had to find their own straw, but their quotas for bricks that had to be made were still the same.  They were not able to meet those impossible demands, and then they were whipped because of it.  In Exodus 5:22 Moses protested to God and asked why He brought so much trouble on His people.  Did God bring trouble on them, or was He testing Pharaoh to see if he would be obedient?  I believe it was a test.  I don’t believe God preordained Pharaoh to be evil and that God predetermined He would harden Pharaoh’s heart.  It doesn’t say that anywhere.  It does say that God told Pharaoh he would be used for the purpose of displaying His power and fame throughout the earth.  Again, when did God tell Pharaoh this?

In Exodus chapter 6, after Pharaoh was tested and he made the wrong choice (he chose to curse the Israelite people and make their lives miserable) that’s when God said in Exodus 6:1, “…Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh…”  I’d like to point out that God had made a covenant with Abraham in Genesis chapter 12 and in verse 3 God told Abraham that He would bless those that blessed him, and He would curse those that curse him.  I believe that applied to Abraham’s descendants as well.  So God held true to His word and He cursed Pharaoh for cursing His covenant people.  God hardened Pharaoh’s heart after he had already hardened his own heart towards the Israelite’s. 

So in Romans when it says that God chooses to show mercy to some, and to harden the hearts of others, who does God choose for the hardened hearts?  We already saw in 2 Timothy 2:20-21 that we have a choice in what kind of vessel or utensil we are.  Pharaoh chose to be used for destruction when he cursed God’s people and gave them an impossible task, and then had them whipped when they couldn’t complete the task.  That was not predestined before the world began. 

Romans 9:19-20 even clarifies this, when it says, “Why does God blame people for not responding?  Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?  (20) No don’t say that…”  It goes on to say that God can use the same lump of clay to make things for honorable use, or to make things that are used for destruction.  But when does God determine how the lump of clay will be used?  It says in verse 22 that God is very patient with those with whom His anger and power fall.  If God is patient, then in my mind He didn’t predestinate anyone to be used for dishonorable use.  He told us not to say that God made anyone that way, He was patient with them first, but they made the wrong choice, and then he hardened the heart and molded the lump to be used for dishonor.  

Verse 23 tells us that all this makes the riches of God’s glory shine even brighter on those that with whom He shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.  But does God choose the individual in advance for glory, or is He talking about those that chose to be the right kind of vessel or utensil? 

Well, what does the rest of the passage say?  It says God calls people not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles. Who are the Gentile people Paul is talking about here?  He refers back to the book of Hosea where it was prophesied that people that were never called His people before would now be called His people, and God will love those He did not love before.  Who are the people God did not show mercy to prior to the cross?  It was the non-Israelite people, or the people Paul is now referring to as the Gentiles. 

 Then in verse 27 Paul also mentions the Israelites, and he says that although they are as numerous as the sand on the sea shore, only a small remnant of them will be saved.  In verse 29 He quotes from the book of Isaiah and says the Israelites would have been wiped out just like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah if God had not left a seed. 

Then Paul concludes the chapter by asking the question, “What does all this mean?”  Or in the KJV “What shall we say then?”  So he’s summarizing at the end of the chapter everything that was said from start to finish in chapter 9.   And his conclusion is that that his Israelite kinsman (the people Paul would be willing to be cut off from Christ for if it meant they would be saved), tried to get right with God the wrong way.  The Israelites tried to get right with God through their own self-efforts, and their law keeping.  But the Gentiles, who weren’t even seeking to be righteous were made right with God, because they had faith.  The Israelites didn’t want to accept Jesus as the way to be saved, they wanted to earn it.  But the Gentiles accepted Jesus as their Savior.  Notice it contrasts Israel with the Gentiles.  

Then in the next verse, Romans 10:1 it reiterates, that Paul’s prayer is for the Israelites to be saved.  In verse 2 Paul says that he knows the zeal and they have for God, but in verse 3 he says they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with Himself.  They refuse to accept God’s way.  They cling to tying to be make right through keeping the law.  But verse 4 tells us that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.  What does that mean?  It means that we can never be made right with God by keeping all of the Law of Moses, because no human being apart from Christ was ever holy enough to keep them all.  James 2:10 says that if you have failed in only one point, you have broken the entire law.  It was a composite whole. 

But the point Paul is making here in his summary is that Israel missed God’s way of getting right with Him.  The way to be right with God is through putting your trust and faith in Jesus, and Jesus was a stumbling block to them.  However, those that accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are the people talked about in Romans 9:23 that were prepared in advance for glory.  God didn’t choose any specific people that were prepared for glory, if so that contradicts ALL of the following verses:

John 1:1-12
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) He existed in the beginning with God. (3) God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. (4) The Word [Jesus] gave life to everything that was created, and his life brought light to everyone. (5) The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it. (6) God sent a man John the Baptist, (7) to tell all about the light so that EVERYONE might believe because of his testimony. (8) John himself was not the light. (9) The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (10) He came into the world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. (11) He came to his own people [the Israelites], and even they rejected him. (12) But to ALL who believed him and ACCEPTED him, he GAVE THE RIGHT to become children of God.

John 3:16-17
For God loved the world so much that he gave his on and only Son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. (17) God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the WORLD through him.

John 12:26
ANYONE who WANTS to be my disciple must follow me, because my servants must be where I am. And he Father will honor ANYONE who serves me.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men.

1 John 2:2
He himself is a sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but for the sins of the WHOLE world.

1 John 5:1
EVERYONE who believes that Jesus is the Christ has become a child of God....

Mark 16:15-16:
"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 WHOEVER believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 John 6:45

“As it is written in Scripture, They will ALL be taught by God. Everyone that LISTENS to the Father and learns form him comes to me."...(47) I tell you the truth, ANYONE who believes has eternal life."

Anyway, that is my take on what is being said in Romans chapter 9.  As for the statement that the New Testament does not cancel out what was said in the Old Testament.  I’d like to point out the following passages from the New Testament:

Acts 10:28 “Peter said to them, ‘You know it is against our laws for a Jewish man to enter a Gentile home like this or to associate with you.  But God has shown me that I should no longer think of ANYONE as impure or unclean.” 

Hebrews 8:7 “If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it.”

Hebrews 8:13 “When God speaks of the New Covenant, it means he made the first one obsolete.  It is now out of date and will soon disappear.” 

As for the passage in Malachi 1:2-3 is that proof that God predetermined that Esau would be evil?  I don’t think so.  Malachi was written after the death of Esau, it wasn’t a prophecy about God showing hate for Esau before he did any evil, it was about the curse that came on him and his descendants after Esau rebelled against God.  In Romans it does say God hated Esau before he was ever born and before he did any good or evil, but I don’t believe the word hate in that passage meant hate like we understand it.  As I said there is also a passage where Jesus said we must hate our fathers, mothers, sisters and brothers in comparison to how we feel about Jesus (Luke 14:26).  As I already stated I believe it just meant that God had mercy on Jacob and chose him for the covenant and not Esau.  Esau was evil, there is no question about that.  Hebrews 12:14-17 tells us:

Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those not holy will not see the Lord.  (15) Look after each other so that none of you fails to receive the grace of God.  Watch out that no poisonous root of bitterness grows up to trouble you, corrupting many. (16) Make sure that on one is immoral or godless like Esau, who traded his birthright as the firstborn son for a single meal. (17) You k now that afterward, when he wanted his father’s blessing, he was rejected.  It was too late for repentance, even though he begged with bitter tears.” 

So it tells us here that Esau was immoral and godless, but does it say anywhere in the Bible that God chose Esau to be evil?  You may read that into it, but I sure don’t see it anywhere.  As I said, I do not believe God predestines anyone to be evil.  He will harden a person’s heart that is already rebellious, but I don’t believe He predestines anyone to have a hard heart or to be used for destruction.  We make that choice ourselves.  You don’t have to agree, and most likely you won’t, but I think I presented a very good case that I have through this through, and studied it extensively.   I’m not just blindly rejecting your statements that God creates evil people.  I have a basis for all of my beliefs, and that’s just not how I interpret those verses.  Not when you read everything in context and compare it with the rest of the Bible.  

Anyway, although I completely agree that we don’t need to argue about it, I also wanted to show you where my thoughts and beliefs come from.  I didn’t get them from anyone else, I researched it on my own, and drew my own conclusions with the help of the Holy Spirit. 

I guess that’s all for now.