NCEC, How are you?

I need a reminder as to why you decided to make the boundary of having your DH included in your communication? I'm sure you have a reason for it. I was trying to remember how I think my own father, although we were not estranged, would feel about it. Needless, to say I know he would not have liked it and would have considered it disrespectful to him and would not have done it. He was from a generation and a cultural background that would find it unacceptable. This could possibly be the case with your dad. Everyone is different.

Yeah, ok thanks.Some days better than others.

As I mentioned, I don't feel safe. His behavior disgusts me, he denies he's done anything wrong. That's fine, if that's true for him good for him. I have no interest in changing him or his perceptions. But where I'm at - what I can do to stabilize my emotions, to improve my ability to communicate, is to accept the support of my husband.

Regardless of my reasons, who is he to judge if my reasons are 'good enough' for him to respect. Am I on trial to be judged good enough or not have my feelings treated with basic humanity and compassion?

This is the place I'm at emotionally (to have my husband involved), I in good faith tried to communicate my needs and suggest several alternatives (counselor, husband etc) only to have him put me down as disrespectful and controlling. Way to falsley accuse and make me feel worthless 'dad'. Sorry, but what an selfish @ of him. Guess it still makes me upset. Makes me feel really worthless. I am beginning to think he hates me and says he loves me just to be cruel. Get my hopes up so it hurts me more when he puts me down.

Pregnancy is a very important time in your life and you are responsible for another life. It is important for your unborn child that you stay calm and peaceful. It does not seem ,as much as you would like it , that your EF is willing to give in to the boundary that has been set. It is your right to have a boundary but it is his decision whether he will agree to it. I hope in the future ( I know there is a distance) that you can both come to a place where you would be able to work it out. He does not seem as if he bends very easily. Some people do not. From what you have shared he does not seem to be like that kind of man. I pray that once the baby comes that he might want to be a part of its (boy or girl?) life. God could work in his heart through this child. God bless you all.

NCEC, I don't see your request to include your husband in communications as control. That is a boundary which is there to make you feel safe, and should be respected by your father. I'll give you an example of something I feel is controlling. My daughter told my three sisters that she didn't feel comfortable coming to my family functions (she has her father's family plus her husband's family functions already to attend). She said she was not comfortable if I was there. One of my sisters then sent me an email saying "most" of the family would prefer I not be there so my children can go. Now, that is controlling. I'm now left wondering whether or not to attend my own family functions. I had withdrawn in order to allow her to go, then realized that is ridiculous! It has created some sort of strange power struggle that shouldn't even be there.

These are the sorts of situations that are created for some of us, which build tension and frustration, and at the root you will find a controlling spirit.

Your father might have his own issues. If he truly wants to have a relationship with you, he should be able to respect a simple request.

Dear NCEC: Welcome back. How are you feeling? My thoughts on boundaries versus control issues. Boundaries that are not agreed to by both parties, become control issues and that ' cross this line and our relationship is quits' issues and that ' if you love me you'll do it my way' issues. Both parties can then accuse the other of all sorts of things arising from that not agreed boundary.

Your father has not agreed to your boundary. That's his problem. I could not agree with my ES and DIL's boundary. - Not to verbally reprimand the GC for unacceptable behavior and language in our home. The language and behavior is acceptable in my ES home. The last blow-up that led to the estrangement was over this boundary issue. There is bad language in my ES house that I will not allow in my home.

What I'm trying to say is a boundary in one person's eyes can be a control issue in another's eyes. Its not right or wrong, just not agreed to. Blessings to you.

As i understand from a book on boundaries this is the difference. Setting a boundary is about what you are willing or not willing to do or what behavior you will or will not accept. It is not something you do to another person. Control is about attempting to make another person act a certain way or do a certain thing.

I think in any 'adult' relationship there are boundaries, but when it is parent and child they get blurred because the parent sees the requests as disrespect. If someone wants something then it may go down easier if it is asked for in one hand while holding out what the child will offer in return. If you understand what I'm trying to say. In my situation, my son wanted me to allow him and his girlfriend (at the time) to sleep together in my house. I was uncomfortable with that for many reasons, and said no, but now I wish we could have talked about it and make our requests understood instead of it just being a threat. That's what he did was threaten me if I didnt let him, and I said no.. Didnt turn out pretty. Been years since he's spoke to me. He moved in with her and her mom, since her mom let them live together under her roof. Now I am the enemy. Maybe if the condition was proposed with something to barter with, maybe your dad wouldnt feel threatened and be willing to meet you 1/2 way?

Thanks for the responses. Interesting food for thought.

If I'm understanding correctly, there basically is indeed... a blurred line between the two - it depends on one's interpretation.

Nana I liked your succinct explanation. However i can still see room in there for the blurred line. A statement such as mine 'I don't feel comfortable speaking with you alone' WITHOUT intent is a boundary, WITH intent is control.

Canadian Moth, in your example I interpret the sister, not the EC, as being the controlling one - is that what you are saying too?

Sallyannelass - I guess if I look at it the way you've explained in your first para, what I have done could be seen as control. I've basically said 'no more, contact me with my husband or not at all'. Basically me reaching the end of my tether. In a sense, I suppose with my boundary I am trying to 'control' (or remove) the elements of communication that are hurting me beyond what I can bare. I don't know what else to do though? It is not viable just to go on being hurt? The fact that he doesn't think his hurting me is well and good for him, but it's still very real to me...? I guess the flip side is his 'boundary' (which I see as control!) is that I speak with him and him alone. And I cannot agree to that. Stalemate.

Thanks for the suggestion Paws4lt but such efforts are interpreted by him as blackmail. sigh.

I've given up on the 'relationship', in truth, I guess what I'm doing now is more of an 'autopsy' :/. Part of the grieving process and letting go. Still seems like such a waste.

Hummm blackmail if he isnt getting anything in return? For instance, what if you invite him to dinner (your hubby will be there see) and then that would break the ice? That would be a start and you would be getting something while offering something in return? He may go for that. What do you think?

Oh, I see. We are on different continents so can't do that exactly. But yes he would (and has) called that emotional blackmail/control. We did try emailing him together from hubby's email to tell him we are pregnant (during this period of no contact - so I think that fits with the idea of giving something at the same time?). Did not go down well.

How about SKYPE??????

Yeeeaaah....I already canned skype for the same reasons - the way he treated me on skype. It was brutal (my opinion). So that's my doing removing that option, I'll own that. I said I wouldn't skype him if he couldn't agree to not talk over the top of me, yell at me, etc - and he couldn't (and denied it ever happened at the same time saying it was my fault?) so I blocked him from my skype. I got my boundary, but at what cost? I mean, I'm not saying i should put up with that but in hindsight it would have been better to involve my husband then. I was ashamed to be failing in building a relationship with my father and was late in allowing my husband to support me and be with me. Bless that amazing man. Hindsight is 20/20. That said, EF may not have tolerated joint skype just as he won't tolerate joint email now. I guess this will go the same way - he will never include my husband via email, I will stick to my boundary and we will never speak again. Is there any way off this mad hellish carnival ride??

yeah, that's sad, NCEC. I hate that you want a relationship with your dad and cant find a happy medium, yet! I have big hope that as long as both parties are keeping communication open there is hope. Just have to find the right key. If this was turned around, I'd say wait for the young adult to mature, but it's your dad you know!!! How much more mature can he get! Well, if he wants a relationship with you, you have to find the right buttons.. I hope anyway. (hugs)