Caring Parents of Estranged Adult Children Community Group
We have given our lives to our children and they reject us. We still love them but this love is now frozen in time. How do we deal with the resulting chaos of our lives? We talk and we listen to one another as we cope with this loss and assault on our sensibilities. Respect in our thinking and language are a must.
I have not been writing much on here lately. Sorry about that. Here what has been going on is a conversation on line between our daughter and dear wife. It has not been going good, and here is the last posting that wife wrote and i do not think she will write any more. I should probably pass on to you folks the most hurtful things that our daughter has written to wife and me these last few days. Every day this has been going on, my stomach turns. I want this current nightmare to end and the net conversation silenced because it is painting a very sad christmas time to come for the both of us.
Here is my dear wife's last post slightly edited by me:
What I've learned is that things are NEVER as simple as they may appear on the surface or as we may want to package them. Narcissism is a complicated process as is often the case with every addiction.
The recipe for Narcissism in this case was a child born ULTRA sensitive, so sensitive that she had her parents walking on eggshells and choosing their words carefully before they spoke so as not to injure her feelings. This in itself causes parents to CATER and adjust their normal ways of relating in order to meet their child's special needs.
Some children are born ultra sensitive while other's are born tough as nails and slights roll off their backs like water off a duck. Parents don't need to Cater to these children. Everyone just goes about their normal lives and the world unfolds as it should.
Now the BIG question is: WHY are some children born with a tough emotional skin while other's are born like emotional burn victims?
One answer is: a child born with Congenital Lyme.
Children with Lyme often have heightened sensitivities, Some sensitivities can be to sound, to clutter, to you name it.
Many children born Congenital Lyme are also born ADD/Dyslexic, some even Autistic. Many due to Lyme suffer various learning disabilities, some have serious problems with memory recall, and often difficulties with comprehension.
The children born with a tougher emotional skin somehow compensate and survive, those who are born emotional burn suffer humiliation and shame.
Parents who have been dealt this hand can only do their best, adjust and help their child compensate . We're all born with strengths and talents. No need to concentrate on what we DON'T have, better to concentrate on what we DO have, build and expand on it.
They say: The path to Hell is ALWAYS paved with good intentions and that’s where Mars parents found themselves after the child they loved and catered to suddenly discovered Narcissism as a way of coping with her insecurities, deep shame and painful emotions.
It doesn’t matter the drug (chemical, behavioral, psychological), ALL ADDICTIONS are destructive to self and family. However, what ALL addictions have in common is the “stinkin thinkin”, denial, avoidance, justification, rationalization, inability to self reflect or understand how their addiction impacts those around them and of course "PROJECTION". Addiction is a fairly comfortable way to EXIST because rather than dealing with your painful emotions, you “project” onto others the blame, your pain and spread it around. Addicts do not give a flying S__T about those around them. They have “no empathy” for the family they hurt. Only their needs, their happiness, their comfort, their entitlements matter. Because addicts are not “in touch” with their own feelings and emotions, they certainly won’t be “in touch” or taking on yours.Empathy? What's that?
It’s NOT comfortable to feel pain. It sucks. However, it’s being able to “feel” is what makes us human. Feeling is what connects us to our “Self”, to “Other’s” through empathy and to “Love”, to Joy, to Passion. Narcissists don’t have a sense of “Self” because they’ve castrated their emotions. As human’s, they are PERFECT ACTORS, PERFECT “FAKES”. (who often behave like unfeeling monsters). The only emotions they really do feel are intense Pathological Envy, Anger and Rage.
Do we love our daughter” Absolutely
Do we want to be miserable co-dependents and slaves to her Narcissism, feed her drug habit with praise, adulation, admiration, attention, be used, abused, raged at, robbed, devalued, crapped on, manipulated? NO.
Our daughter fell down the rabbit hole of Narcissism. As hard as we tried over the years to hook her into communication and fish her out, we were unable to. Narcissists run from emotions.
The painful reality is: Drug Addicts have to save themselves. No one can do it FOR them, They have to WANT to because the pain of being a Drug Addict is greater than the pain it takes to face and deal with the problem.
We should have walked away from Mars years ago but Love always burns with “eternal hope”. Love also creates Co-dependency. Today we realize that we loved a daughter who didn’t love us. She loves her drug. “Narcissism” (well what else is new in the world of addiction)?
Our years of loving, longing and grieving have brought us to this place of “letting go” of all hope, all expectations, all love that keeps us sick and stuck in this unhealthy dynamic and keeps our daughter in a place of “blaming and projecting” rather than looking inward and making all efforts to heal herself and her family.
In the New Year, we will sever the umbilical cord, remove her from “last will” and remove her from “next of kin”. We will have no more reason to contact her or engage in any more futile communication that always comes full circle back to nowhere. It was Mom’s craziness that made her believe that if she consistently did things the same, she would somehow get different results. How CRAZY and delusional was that.
On a different note, today we know that Narcissism closest resembles Sexual Addiction. Our Lyme Literate Physician suspects that Sexual Addiction is actually due to low dopamine in the brain and the addicts need to “surge” in order to raise Dopamine levels.
Narcissists also have a need to “surge” through obtaining praise, admiration, attention. So what I’m saying is Narcissism could well have an underlying “medical cause”. Lyme spirochetes often eat Serotonin receptors and cause an imbalance in Dopamine. Parents know that Mars was born Congenital Lyme because both parents are infected which resulted in the multitude of perplexing medical problems Mars experienced as a baby.
The ONLY thing that would postpone our appointment with our Lawyer to re-write our wills in the New Year would be if Mars showed some willingness to become an active participant in the healing process that her parents have embarked on, by making an appointment with our Lyme Literate Specialist at (Contact deleted by me). Mars would have to commit to being open minded enough to WANT to explore the very real possibility of “underlying medical cause”.
We want to remind Mars that Lyme left untreated to become chronic, results in MS, ALS, Parkinsons, Alzeimer, Lupus, Stroke, loss of eye sight, among other diseases and of course "Mental Illness"
Mom's are responsible for raising you to adulthood, but NOT responsible for the Adult choices you do or don't make. It's YOU who will have to live with the consequences of your own choices (good OR bad) or die from the consequences of your own choices.
ALL choices are YOURS.
Here is my dear wife's last post slightly edited by me:
What I've learned is that things are NEVER as simple as they may appear on the surface or as we may want to package them. Narcissism is a complicated process as is often the case with every addiction.
The recipe for Narcissism in this case was a child born ULTRA sensitive, so sensitive that she had her parents walking on eggshells and choosing their words carefully before they spoke so as not to injure her feelings. This in itself causes parents to CATER and adjust their normal ways of relating in order to meet their child's special needs.
Some children are born ultra sensitive while other's are born tough as nails and slights roll off their backs like water off a duck. Parents don't need to Cater to these children. Everyone just goes about their normal lives and the world unfolds as it should.
Now the BIG question is: WHY are some children born with a tough emotional skin while other's are born like emotional burn victims?
One answer is: a child born with Congenital Lyme.
Children with Lyme often have heightened sensitivities, Some sensitivities can be to sound, to clutter, to you name it.
Many children born Congenital Lyme are also born ADD/Dyslexic, some even Autistic. Many due to Lyme suffer various learning disabilities, some have serious problems with memory recall, and often difficulties with comprehension.
The children born with a tougher emotional skin somehow compensate and survive, those who are born emotional burn suffer humiliation and shame.
Parents who have been dealt this hand can only do their best, adjust and help their child compensate . We're all born with strengths and talents. No need to concentrate on what we DON'T have, better to concentrate on what we DO have, build and expand on it.
They say: The path to Hell is ALWAYS paved with good intentions and that’s where Mars parents found themselves after the child they loved and catered to suddenly discovered Narcissism as a way of coping with her insecurities, deep shame and painful emotions.
It doesn’t matter the drug (chemical, behavioral, psychological), ALL ADDICTIONS are destructive to self and family. However, what ALL addictions have in common is the “stinkin thinkin”, denial, avoidance, justification, rationalization, inability to self reflect or understand how their addiction impacts those around them and of course "PROJECTION". Addiction is a fairly comfortable way to EXIST because rather than dealing with your painful emotions, you “project” onto others the blame, your pain and spread it around. Addicts do not give a flying S__T about those around them. They have “no empathy” for the family they hurt. Only their needs, their happiness, their comfort, their entitlements matter. Because addicts are not “in touch” with their own feelings and emotions, they certainly won’t be “in touch” or taking on yours.Empathy? What's that?
It’s NOT comfortable to feel pain. It sucks. However, it’s being able to “feel” is what makes us human. Feeling is what connects us to our “Self”, to “Other’s” through empathy and to “Love”, to Joy, to Passion. Narcissists don’t have a sense of “Self” because they’ve castrated their emotions. As human’s, they are PERFECT ACTORS, PERFECT “FAKES”. (who often behave like unfeeling monsters). The only emotions they really do feel are intense Pathological Envy, Anger and Rage.
Do we love our daughter” Absolutely
Do we want to be miserable co-dependents and slaves to her Narcissism, feed her drug habit with praise, adulation, admiration, attention, be used, abused, raged at, robbed, devalued, crapped on, manipulated? NO.
Our daughter fell down the rabbit hole of Narcissism. As hard as we tried over the years to hook her into communication and fish her out, we were unable to. Narcissists run from emotions.
The painful reality is: Drug Addicts have to save themselves. No one can do it FOR them, They have to WANT to because the pain of being a Drug Addict is greater than the pain it takes to face and deal with the problem.
We should have walked away from Mars years ago but Love always burns with “eternal hope”. Love also creates Co-dependency. Today we realize that we loved a daughter who didn’t love us. She loves her drug. “Narcissism” (well what else is new in the world of addiction)?
Our years of loving, longing and grieving have brought us to this place of “letting go” of all hope, all expectations, all love that keeps us sick and stuck in this unhealthy dynamic and keeps our daughter in a place of “blaming and projecting” rather than looking inward and making all efforts to heal herself and her family.
In the New Year, we will sever the umbilical cord, remove her from “last will” and remove her from “next of kin”. We will have no more reason to contact her or engage in any more futile communication that always comes full circle back to nowhere. It was Mom’s craziness that made her believe that if she consistently did things the same, she would somehow get different results. How CRAZY and delusional was that.
On a different note, today we know that Narcissism closest resembles Sexual Addiction. Our Lyme Literate Physician suspects that Sexual Addiction is actually due to low dopamine in the brain and the addicts need to “surge” in order to raise Dopamine levels.
Narcissists also have a need to “surge” through obtaining praise, admiration, attention. So what I’m saying is Narcissism could well have an underlying “medical cause”. Lyme spirochetes often eat Serotonin receptors and cause an imbalance in Dopamine. Parents know that Mars was born Congenital Lyme because both parents are infected which resulted in the multitude of perplexing medical problems Mars experienced as a baby.
The ONLY thing that would postpone our appointment with our Lawyer to re-write our wills in the New Year would be if Mars showed some willingness to become an active participant in the healing process that her parents have embarked on, by making an appointment with our Lyme Literate Specialist at (Contact deleted by me). Mars would have to commit to being open minded enough to WANT to explore the very real possibility of “underlying medical cause”.
We want to remind Mars that Lyme left untreated to become chronic, results in MS, ALS, Parkinsons, Alzeimer, Lupus, Stroke, loss of eye sight, among other diseases and of course "Mental Illness"
Mom's are responsible for raising you to adulthood, but NOT responsible for the Adult choices you do or don't make. It's YOU who will have to live with the consequences of your own choices (good OR bad) or die from the consequences of your own choices.
ALL choices are YOURS.
X, it might just be at a standstill the way it's been.. no better, but no worse. All of our Christmases will be the way they've been for several years, someone is missing..and in your case there are two beloved people missing.
The only thing we can do is appreciate all that we do have, and maybe even appreciate that we don't have someone in our lives criticizing and belittling us and causing conflict and chaos.
Hugs.
Norah always has a way of bringing things around. Our posts are so full of the "stuff" with our EC...."conflict and chaos." We do not have that at the moment. Thanks for the reminder, Norah.
X, I tend to agree with Norah...."a standstill" right now. And who knows what the result of your gifts will be....they were not returned.
Tomorrow is Christmas Eve.....Let each of us truly count our Blessings.
bobobob xxxxx, You seem to be well meaning so I’m not going to blame you for being ignorant. Unless you’ve actually experienced violence in your own child/parent relationship, there was no reason for you to research the hell out of this subject, so I can’t expect you to know. Child parent violence as you will see in this educational video, happens for a multitude of reasons.
https://blab.im/davina-frederick-j-d-domestic-violence-month-examining-child-to-parent-violence-and-teen-aggression
My son walked home from recess due to grade 4 bullying. The very next day, I walked past his open bedroom door and heard him GROWL at “ME”. It’s called “Projecting”. That was the first day of the rest of my life. He went on to develop full blown PTSD from that single incident and this loving, caring and protective Mom became the target of his anger, rage and contempt. For years it baffled me as to how this could occur (every child gets bullied and don’t suffer PTSD).
Today I understand that a child born Congenital Lyme is also born with “heightened sensitivities”. It’s not WHAT happens to you, it’s how you “PERCEIVE” what happens to you and how it impacts you emotionally. Some children manage to work through it and some “project” their painful feelings onto other’s, because they’re too painful to deal with.
As for my Covert NPD daughter: Everything seemed to be going well with the exceptions that she was becoming quite bossy and commandeering toward Mom but it was still manageable. Until: she walked in one day age 22, put a figurative gun to our heads, and demanded I hand over 3 years of my full time salary and $40,000.00. NO discussion, NO negotiation. Quote: "I've decided that I'm not happy with just a piece of ANY pie, I WANT THE WHOLE DAM THING!!! This is called Child to Parent Violence. (financial AND emotional abuse)
The last time I interacted with my daughter person to person, I asked that we have a talk about what happened as years had already passed and it was a good time to remove the elephant in the room. I needed closure.
Her response was: “If you don’t SHUT UP, I won’t be around to wipe your ass when you get old”.
Nothing had changed in all the years, no remorse, no regret. NPD, STILL an NPD. .... I said, “Thank you very much for the offer but I’ll decline” and I walked away.
What occurred was an adult child attempting to “intimidate” a parent. It’s “Child to Parent violence”. If you think it’s OK to remain in a disrespectful relationship where communication is thwarted by threat, then you’re far “Crazier” than I am. No insult intended.
Our daughter WILL be losing her inheritance in the New Year if she doesn’t begin working with us (her parents) toward healing. We’re NOT going to put up with anymore of this bullshit. We expect her to make that appointment with our Lyme Literate Physician for testing so we can rule out medical cause.
NOTE: Don’t you find it rather ODD that our NPD has spent the last 15 years blogging her Boo Hoo’s “PUBLICALLY” on line, gaining “ATTENTION” while collecting “Flying Monkeys” yet not once in those 15 years has she contacted her parents to say, “Lets get together with a therapist. I’m ready to work this out so we can finally heal our relationships, and all move on with our lives”.
HOWEVER, every time her parents mention getting together “in family therapy” in order to work things out, she runs and AVOIDS.
The “ATTENTION” is an NPD “DRUG” called “Narcissistic Supply”. NO drug addict wants to let go of their drug because it would mean that they would have to FACE and work through their painful feelings. It’s far easier to “suppress” your feelings and project your pain outward onto other’s than have to do the work necessary to heal.
I have nothing more to say.
And with those words, wife has told me that indeed she has nothing more to say on this or any site to daughter as she is now done. Such a point has been reached more than a few times in the past so i am sceptical to say the least. What i do know is that dear wife will slow down on these writings for a bit and what that bit will be depends only on dear wife. xfmlg
Years ago I served on our local school board, a very tiny school district..but when it came time for contract negotiations it could be very nasty. I was young and pretty much bewildered about how to handle these professionals in a polite way. What seemed to happen is that once an adversarial tone set in, no progress could be made..everyone was firmly in their own corner and not willing to negotiate or compromise. I talked to the superintendent of our regional school district and he gave me some good advice, although I can't remember what his words were it was something similar to what I just posted above. It is better not to let things get to that point, but continually try to set a tone of willingness to listen, to compromise, to let them know we hear their concerns (even though we didn't agree with them!)..
I always remembered that, even though I have not been successful in doing that within my own family. Sometimes strong words and convictions are necessary, we can't always compromise and bend over backward for our kids.. Maybe some parents can do that but it all depends on the personalities of our children! I admire those parents who could always be so gentle with their kids and the kids were so cooperative.. My kids wouldn't listen to me unless I got angry and that is from a young age! And being young myself I did not have the maturity to figure out a way to deal with them differently. It seemed they enjoyed pushing my buttons! And when DH got home from work, it was time for fun and games and laughs, and there I was, the one who was the "enforcer" all day long.. :-) Other parents can probably relate to that, I think.
So an adversarial position is set up from early on.. they distrust our motives, they read things into our every word and facial expression, maybe not realizing that we have other things to think and worry about and it's not always about them. Maybe they want to make us happy, I think they do.. and they don't know how to do that. If we look unhappy then they take the blame on themselves unconsciously..they don't even realize it themselves. How complicated it can be!
It has helped me to read this and write this all out.. I keep trying to get some perspective on estrangement, try to understand how it all went wrong such a long time ago, and why my efforts are misunderstood all the time. DH tries too, in his way.. but in our case it is me, the mother who is being blamed.
All I can figure out for now is that this is somehow the way it's supposed to be.
Hugs, X.. yes, try to stay busy and also take care of yourself.. Keeping our minds off the negative stuff is healthy.
anyway.. I saw someone remark on a forum on New Year's Day.. that she is not going to look in the rear view mirror this year, but just keep going forward.. I think that is a good strategy.
Here are the changes. Lyme disease is taking its toll on me. I have been reduced to walking with 2 canes because my right knee cannot support my body weight without collapsing,. It is all so frustrating now because a big difficult trip is going to the basement or up stairs to the second floor.. It is not easy even with 2 canes and a railing. The physical pain is just not worth it. Dear wife has bought me this scooter which is a souped up tricycle. It is really small and I can lift into the back of my small car by myself. Still have hope left that we can heal this knee, but it is not looking good. Still with the naturopath and now also getting stem cell therapy and progress is either not noticeable or weak. I am still able to drive and that is a great bonus. I still can get around and thus I can contribute to society.
Wife's health is way better than mine and she has no impediments to her body functioning.
Legallyl, we have taken our son to court to get a judge to tell him that we have a right to see our 2 grandsons who are now one almost 16 and the other short of 9 years old. His solution to the legal case: He has retained a lawyer to represent him and he not yet appeared at the only hearing scheduled to date. We want a judge to say to him: Son, what you are doing is cruel to both your parents and to your own 2 boys. You have deprived those 2 boys their birthright of knowing 2 loving grandsons. We want the judge to give us visitation rights and to order our son into some kind of counselling. Next court session is on December 18 of this year and our lawyer says that it is now imperative that our son will show up.
Only time will tell and so I an ever the optimist and will continue on this path in life and I love all no matter what. xfmlg