BiGay and Christian Community Group
A safe place for bi, gay, and other non-straight Christians to discuss the issues related to being bi/gay and Christian. It doesn't matter what denomination, or even religion you are, come and discuss the particulars of your lives, where being non-straight and Christian is concerned. Even if you are Jewish or Muslim or anything else you are welcome to discuss the...
rk4262
This was a devotional I preached to a roomful of missionaries, in this I do say that acting on your homosexual feelings is a sin. I know that this will upset a lot of people, and trust me I wish that the Bible didn't say that it is a sin, but it does. However it also says that just being homosexual is NOT a sin, only if you act on those feelings. I do not apologize for saying this, I do apologize if anyone is offended. Of course this is my interpurtation of what the Bible says. You may believe differently, if so I respect your opinions, and ask that you respect mine. If you want to respond with a different opinion that is fine, I'll be glad to look at it, however please be respectful of each other and me, just giving your opinion is ok, responding with vulgar and offensive language is not acceptable, so please be nice.
Now what I have learned over the years during my own study, and that of other people, some of them Bible scholars, is that No where does the Bible say that homosexuality is a sin. It does however say that acting on those feelings is a sin. But it is actually no worse a sin than many other things, that everyone does everyday. It's not over, I've got more for those folks that are here just to condemn us.
I'm from a small town in Mississippi, right in the middle of the Bible belt, I grew up in one of the strictest Baptist churches there is. So at 17 when I came out Bi, I knew I would be disowned. However my parents continued to love me, they tried on multiple occasions to show me how that I could not really be bi. Even making me go to a Christian therapist, who told them that people are born gay, it is just up to them to choose whether or not to live the life. They did not like that, and even though I found that I needed some counseling because of my fears and confusion, they refused to continue paying for it, and I couldn't afford it.
To continue with what I said in the first paragraph, the sin of homosexuality is no worse than those that are committed by the "church going Christian" that is condemning homosexuality "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). This tells us that those that are here to condemn us, are actually just as guilty of sin as we are, and therefore do not have the right to judge us. When the super religious church leaders brought the whore to Jesus the Bible says, "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7). Who can forget Matthew 7: 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote (splinter) that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam (building framework) that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou [hypocrite], first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Then there's the big one, James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. Of Course you can look at the other side of the commandments
1 John 3:11 the Bible says "For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."
Now let me remind you how in the beginning of the world God sat up the institution of marriage, and how that once you were married you were to be married until "death do you part", but the Israelite's continued to complain until God had Moses set up the rules for divorce, and yet in Mark 10:9 Jesus says, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Strange. Mark 10:11-12 Jesus say's "And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." God set up the rules for divorce, yet divorce is a sin, and remarrying makes both of the people whores, and we all know what happens to whores. But, yet the church doesn't condemn it's members for divorce, the way it does homosexuals, so clearly Christians pick and choose what they want to condemn, and it's usually something that makes them uncomfortable.
Now here is where I am going to really make some people mad, this comes from a sermon I preached several years ago. Let's start at Isa. 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." What does this verse tell you? Let's look at it for a moment, it starts out explaining how we as a people have left the true scipture message, we have allowed everyone to do their own thing. Now the important part, "the LORD hath laid on him", whose him? Christ Jesus, "the iniquity (sin) of us ALL". In other words when Christ was on the cross, he suffered every sin known to man, stealing, hatred, divorce, homosexuality. OH NO YOU DIDN'T just say homosexuality, YES I DID. Christ knows how we feel, he experienced for a short time, just what it's like to "come out", to have gay relationships, the emotions that drive us to act on those urges. I'm not going to say if a person is born gay or not, I don't know, I do know in my own personal life, there are a lot of issues in my childhood that led me to being bi/gay, maybe I was born gay, and those experiences, made it stronger. Maybe if I had been born straight instead of being born gay, I would have lived through all the stuff I lived through and still been straight.
Now I want to take just a minute to discuss the reasons why I feel that acting on the homosexual feelings is sin. I wish I could leave this part out, I wish this wasn't here, but it is and I can't ignore it just because I don't like what it says.
Leviticus 10:20 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Even if there was not another verse about this, it clearly states that homosexuality is a sin. In Genesis ch. 19 we see the story of Sodom and Gomorah, in verse 1 we see "When the two angels reached Sodom in the evening, Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. As soon as Lot saw them, he stood up to greet them, and bowed to the ground." Then verse two and three Lot begs the men to come into his house and eat supper with him, then starting in verse 4-10 "4 They had not gone to bed when the house was surrounded by the townspeople, the men of Sodom both young and old, all the people without exception. 5 Calling out to Lot they said, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Send them out to us so that we can have intercourse with them.' 6 Lot came out to them at the door and, having shut the door behind him, 7 said, 'Please, brothers, do not be wicked. 8 Look, I have two daughters who are virgins. I am ready to send them out to you, for you to treat as you please, but do nothing to these men since they are now under the protection of my roof.' 9 But they retorted, 'Stand back! This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge. Now we shall treat you worse than them.' Then they forced Lot back and moved forward to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out, pulled Lot back into the house with them, and shut the door." This is why Sodom and Gomorah were burnt with Holy Fire from Heaven, until they no longer existed. I saw a news story the other day that showed a subdivision a year after a tornado, the only thing there was the concrete foundation's, one after another, when God destroyed these two cities, there wasn't that much left. In fact afterwards, someone that knew the towns could no longer find where they had been located. There was more there than just sodomy but it was one of the main reasons. These verses show us that the homosexual sex was so bad in the town that first, when angels visited, the men of the town came to rape them, and the one thing left of the town was that anal sex became known as sodomy in honor of the town.
"Of course that's the Old Testament, and after the resurrection we are no longer under the law, but under the Grace of God. So what does the New Testament have to say, let's start here "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (NIV, 1st Corinthians 6:9-11). These verses clearly show us that there are a lot sins including homosexuality that will keep people out of heaven, however it is possible for us to be washed and made clean, justifying us in the eye's of God. Now let us look at Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. There are a lot of things listed here besides homosexuality, but it does include homosexuality that cause people to turn their back on God, and because they will refuse to return to Him, He will eventually give up on them. I say it again, I wish this wasn't in here but it is.
Now to present another view of things, In Matt. ch 8 we see where a Centurion came to Jesus, and told Jesus how he was a great commander and had so many men under him, and he was used to having his orders carried out, as those under him knew the punishment they faced if they didn't do as they were told. Then he told Jesus that he had a servant that was sick, and asked Jesus to heal the boy. Jesus immediately said that he would be honored to visit the man's house. The centurion said 'No LORD, I know that if you just speak the word, my servant will be healed, there is no need for for you to come to my house. Jesus marveled at the man's faith, and turned to his disciples and reprimanded them for not having that much faith. Here is the thing, in the original text when the centurion mentioned his servant he used the word "pais", to describe the boy. It is often argued that the word 'pais" means a young boy slave usually in the early teens that is a sex slave for the man. If that is true, then this was a gay Centurion, coming to beg Christ to heal his gay lover, and Jesus immediately said "I'll do it, lets go to your house now".
Also the Bible talks about Eunuch's often, including the Egyptian Eunuch that some believe is the first gentile convert to Christianity after the Resurrection. There are possibly hundreds of times Eunuch are mentioned in the Bible including Matt. 19:12 "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." There are a lot of scholars that say that certain Eunuch's are actually male sex servants. Yet, Jesus in the above verses clearly says that "which were so born from their mother's womb". They were born that way. In any case a Eunuch was bedroom servant, or sometimes used to guard harems, because they were impotent. Some were born that way, others were castrated, and others made themself that way. Could all of this stuff actually be saying that homosexuality is OK? How can the Bible in some places say that homosexuality is an abomination, and then also say that it's ok?
I don't know, what I do know is that even though I actively live as a bisexual, God still loves me, I still love him, I still worship him, and in the end I'll be forgiven as I've accepted Him as my LORD and Savior. In the end that's all that matters.
Now what I have learned over the years during my own study, and that of other people, some of them Bible scholars, is that No where does the Bible say that homosexuality is a sin. It does however say that acting on those feelings is a sin. But it is actually no worse a sin than many other things, that everyone does everyday. It's not over, I've got more for those folks that are here just to condemn us.
I'm from a small town in Mississippi, right in the middle of the Bible belt, I grew up in one of the strictest Baptist churches there is. So at 17 when I came out Bi, I knew I would be disowned. However my parents continued to love me, they tried on multiple occasions to show me how that I could not really be bi. Even making me go to a Christian therapist, who told them that people are born gay, it is just up to them to choose whether or not to live the life. They did not like that, and even though I found that I needed some counseling because of my fears and confusion, they refused to continue paying for it, and I couldn't afford it.
To continue with what I said in the first paragraph, the sin of homosexuality is no worse than those that are committed by the "church going Christian" that is condemning homosexuality "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). This tells us that those that are here to condemn us, are actually just as guilty of sin as we are, and therefore do not have the right to judge us. When the super religious church leaders brought the whore to Jesus the Bible says, "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7). Who can forget Matthew 7: 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote (splinter) that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam (building framework) that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou [hypocrite], first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Then there's the big one, James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. Of Course you can look at the other side of the commandments
1 John 3:11 the Bible says "For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."
Now let me remind you how in the beginning of the world God sat up the institution of marriage, and how that once you were married you were to be married until "death do you part", but the Israelite's continued to complain until God had Moses set up the rules for divorce, and yet in Mark 10:9 Jesus says, "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Strange. Mark 10:11-12 Jesus say's "And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." God set up the rules for divorce, yet divorce is a sin, and remarrying makes both of the people whores, and we all know what happens to whores. But, yet the church doesn't condemn it's members for divorce, the way it does homosexuals, so clearly Christians pick and choose what they want to condemn, and it's usually something that makes them uncomfortable.
Now here is where I am going to really make some people mad, this comes from a sermon I preached several years ago. Let's start at Isa. 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." What does this verse tell you? Let's look at it for a moment, it starts out explaining how we as a people have left the true scipture message, we have allowed everyone to do their own thing. Now the important part, "the LORD hath laid on him", whose him? Christ Jesus, "the iniquity (sin) of us ALL". In other words when Christ was on the cross, he suffered every sin known to man, stealing, hatred, divorce, homosexuality. OH NO YOU DIDN'T just say homosexuality, YES I DID. Christ knows how we feel, he experienced for a short time, just what it's like to "come out", to have gay relationships, the emotions that drive us to act on those urges. I'm not going to say if a person is born gay or not, I don't know, I do know in my own personal life, there are a lot of issues in my childhood that led me to being bi/gay, maybe I was born gay, and those experiences, made it stronger. Maybe if I had been born straight instead of being born gay, I would have lived through all the stuff I lived through and still been straight.
Now I want to take just a minute to discuss the reasons why I feel that acting on the homosexual feelings is sin. I wish I could leave this part out, I wish this wasn't here, but it is and I can't ignore it just because I don't like what it says.
Leviticus 10:20 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Even if there was not another verse about this, it clearly states that homosexuality is a sin. In Genesis ch. 19 we see the story of Sodom and Gomorah, in verse 1 we see "When the two angels reached Sodom in the evening, Lot was sitting at the gate of Sodom. As soon as Lot saw them, he stood up to greet them, and bowed to the ground." Then verse two and three Lot begs the men to come into his house and eat supper with him, then starting in verse 4-10 "4 They had not gone to bed when the house was surrounded by the townspeople, the men of Sodom both young and old, all the people without exception. 5 Calling out to Lot they said, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Send them out to us so that we can have intercourse with them.' 6 Lot came out to them at the door and, having shut the door behind him, 7 said, 'Please, brothers, do not be wicked. 8 Look, I have two daughters who are virgins. I am ready to send them out to you, for you to treat as you please, but do nothing to these men since they are now under the protection of my roof.' 9 But they retorted, 'Stand back! This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge. Now we shall treat you worse than them.' Then they forced Lot back and moved forward to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out, pulled Lot back into the house with them, and shut the door." This is why Sodom and Gomorah were burnt with Holy Fire from Heaven, until they no longer existed. I saw a news story the other day that showed a subdivision a year after a tornado, the only thing there was the concrete foundation's, one after another, when God destroyed these two cities, there wasn't that much left. In fact afterwards, someone that knew the towns could no longer find where they had been located. There was more there than just sodomy but it was one of the main reasons. These verses show us that the homosexual sex was so bad in the town that first, when angels visited, the men of the town came to rape them, and the one thing left of the town was that anal sex became known as sodomy in honor of the town.
"Of course that's the Old Testament, and after the resurrection we are no longer under the law, but under the Grace of God. So what does the New Testament have to say, let's start here "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (NIV, 1st Corinthians 6:9-11). These verses clearly show us that there are a lot sins including homosexuality that will keep people out of heaven, however it is possible for us to be washed and made clean, justifying us in the eye's of God. Now let us look at Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. There are a lot of things listed here besides homosexuality, but it does include homosexuality that cause people to turn their back on God, and because they will refuse to return to Him, He will eventually give up on them. I say it again, I wish this wasn't in here but it is.
Now to present another view of things, In Matt. ch 8 we see where a Centurion came to Jesus, and told Jesus how he was a great commander and had so many men under him, and he was used to having his orders carried out, as those under him knew the punishment they faced if they didn't do as they were told. Then he told Jesus that he had a servant that was sick, and asked Jesus to heal the boy. Jesus immediately said that he would be honored to visit the man's house. The centurion said 'No LORD, I know that if you just speak the word, my servant will be healed, there is no need for for you to come to my house. Jesus marveled at the man's faith, and turned to his disciples and reprimanded them for not having that much faith. Here is the thing, in the original text when the centurion mentioned his servant he used the word "pais", to describe the boy. It is often argued that the word 'pais" means a young boy slave usually in the early teens that is a sex slave for the man. If that is true, then this was a gay Centurion, coming to beg Christ to heal his gay lover, and Jesus immediately said "I'll do it, lets go to your house now".
Also the Bible talks about Eunuch's often, including the Egyptian Eunuch that some believe is the first gentile convert to Christianity after the Resurrection. There are possibly hundreds of times Eunuch are mentioned in the Bible including Matt. 19:12 "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." There are a lot of scholars that say that certain Eunuch's are actually male sex servants. Yet, Jesus in the above verses clearly says that "which were so born from their mother's womb". They were born that way. In any case a Eunuch was bedroom servant, or sometimes used to guard harems, because they were impotent. Some were born that way, others were castrated, and others made themself that way. Could all of this stuff actually be saying that homosexuality is OK? How can the Bible in some places say that homosexuality is an abomination, and then also say that it's ok?
I don't know, what I do know is that even though I actively live as a bisexual, God still loves me, I still love him, I still worship him, and in the end I'll be forgiven as I've accepted Him as my LORD and Savior. In the end that's all that matters.
You can apply that to our sexuality also. Just because we have a personality trait that could cause us to be right there with the disciples and Moses, and David and the others as some of the worst sinners on earth,does not mean that God can't still love us, call us for His service, and then use us in a way that changes the world.
Matthew 7:19-21 (NKJV) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
1 Corinthians 7:2 (NKJV) "Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband."
1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (NKJV) For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
I'm not judging but I do want to give you more scripture because I feel like you're leading people astray. Our desires oftentimes overpower our discernment so we try to make the Word say what we want it to say but we cannot change God. Because of the sinfulness of the people, God did allow them to divorce but He did not allow them to remarry unless their (ex)spouse died (1 Timothy 5:14) so, you got that wrong. And yes, the church does sometimes overlook one sin in favor of another but God doesn't and He's the One we have to answer to. Any sexual act that isn't between a husband and a wife is sinful. The Bible calls it 'sexual immorality'. We are His church, not some building. Living in open sin and assuming God will forgive you when you die is a deception from satan. Once you die, it's too late. Your heart has to be right with God before it stops beating.