Honestly Hummingbird, just acknowledge to your daughter that her grandma was very upset. I'm sure she knows that something isn't right between you two. If necessary, just explain that her grandma misinterpreted your actions, you tried to make it right, but it didn't work. It's very hard for others to see what it's like to deal with a Narc unless they've been there also. The less resistance you put into it, i.e., acknowledge grandma's hurt feelings to your daughter, the more she will believe you. Hopefully your daughter will understand.

Thank you both for your replies!!!!!!!!!!! Hmgm, that is precisely what happened I explained to my daughter what I described in my post, but she was still confused by her empathy for her ngrandmother calling and crying. She knows that if I was to call her crying, it is a very big deal indeed. As you say, it is very, very difficult for someone who does not have a nparent to understand the 'crazymaking' that is actually going on. That is why I would like to write this letter, to once and for all, put down on paper what I have learned about narcissism and how it relates to our family.
I found out about my nmother's abuse when I was my children's age and it hurt me deeply to think that my mom had been hurt in that way, but it was also freeing to put together a clearer picture for me of where my nmother was coming from.
Thank Dynamical, I think that is very wise. My children have the added stress of me leaving their nfather after he assaulted me a couple of years ago. They have already had to deal with their nuclear family not being exactly how it had seemed. Now I just feel like it is healthier for everybody to put all of our warts out on the table and be done with it. Thank you for your thoughtful replies!! !t is greatly, greatly appreciated!!!!!

I brought my children up to have respect for their grandparents. I thought I was doing the right thing. Of course. However, one thing I didn't realise it that as they got older, they began to feel it was me in the wrong when instances of narc. abuse happened. They didn't see the abuse, just my responses to it. They always defended my parents. And to be fair, my parents were better as grandparents, albeit in the small doses they dished it out. They were always there in a crisis, don't get me wrong. They loved it when we were 'in a pickle', and needed their help. Also, if we were doing something they approved of and needed help, you'd get it. But if we chose to do something taboo (like moving out of the home town) then everything would be withdrawn.
I never discussed any of this with my children. I think now, that this wasn't for noble reasons, but instead formed part of my own denial. I was hoping that as grandparents, they could be better. They were. My oldest daughter loved them. She lived with them for a year so she could attend college in the area they lived in. She knew them. They loved her. I knew that offering her a home was a manipulation, to prevent the family moving permanently away. But she didn't. i didn't tell her my persception. I really didn't influence her. Should I have?I don't know. All I know is, that one day the masks slipped and then she knew. Then all of my children knew.
It was a huge family crisis. Long story short, I was isolated and scapegoated by my parents and Nbrother. (see my journal).
My oldest daughter, who had always defended their stance in the past, rang them. I told her not too, after the call I'd had. She was confident she would have it sorted in ten minutes. She rang, and politely defended her mum to them. She asked them please not to ban me from visiting them over just a disagreement with my brother (golden child). She was then subjected, for the first time in her life, to my parents' full on narcissistic rage. Full of the list of all the wonderments of my brother and his wife, and how I was selfish and would 'never be forgiven'. Whoops.Just like that, she was out on her ear. The masks slipped that day. She was ostracised too. Following that, my daughter was persona non grata. It goes on still.
I think what your daughter could do, is be sympathetic to your mum, but explain that she is not the best person to talk to about her own mum. It puts her in a difficult position. I think your mum needs to understand that she can't ring your kids to complain about you. Whether you have done something or not! It's not acceptable under any circumstances, and it's trampling all over your boundaries. Her behaviour was a complete overreaction. I think she felt you were trying to take control. Dates and times are really important to narcs and they need 100 per cent control over them. What you asked was perfectly logical and in clear consideration of your brother's needs. But I would say, never do this again. Don't intervene for the sake of others. It doesn't work with narcissists. You get scapegoated. Take care, am sending lots of hugs xxxxx

Wow, Dynamical and Pitstop you have no idea what these two posts have meant to me!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have read and reread them both a number of times. Dynamical I read the words, with tears, "as you wake out of the narctrance and get conscious", and "emerging to be coping so much resistance and abuse" were pure poetry in their articulation, hitting the core of how I have been feeling!!!!!!!!! It has been very difficult to stay centered and to keep moving toward enlightenment, as the narc weights in my life try to drag me back down into their abyss, the narctrance world. It gets worse, I dated a fellow for about a year, that I fell madly in love with. He was poetic, charming, lifting me over puddles, loving me like I have never been loved before!!! We came from extremely similar backgrounds, and I thought that we might help each other through our abusive pasts but, now I am afraid that he too is a narc and I am now grieving the loss of that relationship. In my heart I know that relationships are not supposed to be this hard and I feel a little silly that I didn't pay attention the first time that he over reacted by leaving, with no real provocation. Now he is just added weight to my psyche.

I think you are right that children do see the difference for themselves. The truth is the truth is the truth. If they were still in their teens I do not think that I would even consider writing this type of letter. As they remind me all of the time, they are adults now, and in a way I feel like I am denying them by not sharing this information. I was the same age when my nmother disclosed the horrendous abuse of her childhood and although I ached for her, it was also enlightening and freeing in a way. In the same way that the truth of our nparents is freeing for us. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your thoughtful, insightful, wisdom and caring!!!!!!!!!!!!! It has meant the world to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm pleased that on here we all seem to help each other! You have helped me too, hummingbird. If I were you, painful as it is, I would view your past lost relationship as a PLUS rather than a negative. You can view it as experience to file away. I think you are blaming yourself far too much for going for him. Don't take on blame that belongs squarely on his shoulders. Remember we are programmed to be attracted to narc. behaviour. And when it's dressed up in poetry it was difficult to see to begin with. I've done this too, not with a relationship, but with a new age counseller who turned out to be a narc. It is, or has been, a sort of addiction. You are now, like me, becoming deprogrammed! Hurrah! See it more as a plus in terms of the experience, and be aware of your newly enlightened state. xxxxx

Pitstop, I get the feeling that part of why you didn't come between them was that you didn't want to see your own children hurt either. The truth is the truth is the truth, and your daughter found out the hard way. Shame on any grandma who would ever yell at their grandchild!!! and then ostracize her!!!! Shameful!!!!

I had a deep and meaningful relationship with my father's parents, that at times was the only acceptance and unconditional love that I was given. My grandfather was physically abusive to my father, and it was obvious that there was no real closeness between them but, that did not take away from my relationship. I think you are right that it is up to my daughter to set the boundaries with her grandmother. I think if I give her the information about narcissism she can make a more informed choice about how to go about that. I have written the letter and am going to take a couple of days and reread it. I feel good about it.I feel that by not telling them I am not giving them a chance to really support me and cope with their grandparents in an informed way.

I am strongly considering no contact, but, if not, I will take your advice and never, ever try to change the NARCS plans. Thank God, this latest event did not have the same emotional impact that it would have in the past!! Baby steps...........and support like yours is what is going to see me through!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you Pitstop, you really are something special!!!!!!!!

That is a coincidence!!! I was writing to you at exactly the same time as you were writing to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are right of course, it was much more positive than it was negative. He lifted me literally and figuratively at what could have been one of the darkest times of my life. Instead of chastising myself for ignoring the glaringingly obvious problem he had with dealing with stress, I am going to congratulate myself for seeing it in the first place and for acknowledging it for what it was. And, this time it was done within a year, and not 28 years that it took me to clue in on my marriage. I really am learning that I have very good intuition and that I will be fine despite the heartbreaks. What has helped me is knowing that while I am letting negative people drain me, I am taking energy away from those that are positive in my life, and that is not fair to them!!!!!!!!!! Or me. Besides, this was my first boyfriend in thirty years, since I was eighteen, so I guess I could use a little more practice : ). Pitstop it sounds like you are in a good relationship. What is your secret? What would you have me look out for? Big Hugs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OOH lol. Right, to begin with, I had already learned the hard way with my first relationship with someone who was a narc come full blownsociopath. it took me a couple of years to get over him. Plus, my narc. family loved him, so I had to get rid of him all on my own. It's the kind of character building stuff you do not want to experience! Yet still, I was better armed for the world after that.

I met my husband's family very early on, saw him around them and noticed how close, loving and easy they were with other. At the time I said to him 'You haven't got such a thing as a generation gap in your family, have you?' I think what I was seeing, but not consciously recognising, was unconditional love. I can't say I married him because of his family, but seeing where he came from, the warmth and love, which by the way, I was instantly offered as well, it tells you what the man is made of, that he's grown up in that environment. Having said that it would be a unfair to rule out anyone with a tricky family. But I do think it can work better one of you in the relationship hasn't suffered from a narc. family set up.xx

That should read,

' I do think it can work better if one of you in the relationship hasn't suffered from a narc.family set up.'

Hummingbird and Pitstop, I enjoyed reading the last several posts......so much I can relate to. Pitstop, very true that we are programmed to be attracted to narc behavior. Hummingbird, trust that intuition! I too had strong feelings for a narc years ago. He was very charming and appeared at first to have a sensitive side. He too threatened to leave after first disagreement. I was confused because it wasn't a big deal so I caved in and he stayed. He had me trained early and his treatment of me just got worse. He cheated - never caught him - but I know he did because I found pieces of paper with girls' phone numbers written down and found other irrefutable evidence. I was so distraught all the time because I was trying so hard to get him to love me and make me feel the way I did when we first met. He was nothing like the person I first met because that was all an act. I didn't even know what a narcissist was at the time. But there was a strange moment I had a very weird thought that he somehow reminded me of my mother. I couldn't figure it out though. Wow what a total waste of emotional energy on him. At some point I finally realized I didn't even like him anymore. I was just addicted to the "relationship." Like you Pitstop, I married a man completely different who came from a family where things just seemed easier, more free. Sending you all love and peace ~

Yes, I remember very well 'your full blownsociopath' and your families reactions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are quite right to look at the family of origin and the existing relationships. My daughter was brilliant in her choosing of a man. He comes from a very warm, loving family and impressed me from the beginning with his openness to talk about things in a respectful way; his empathy and compassion for my daughter; and how seriously he took the responsibility of making his family happy and safe. Can you tell I am a big fan? : )
It was such a relief to see my very worthy daughter marry such a man. Now, if my son could find such a good match all would be well in the world!!

I am still very impressed that coming from the family that you did, that you were able make obviously good choices in a mate. You are sooooooooooo deserving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

This is a lot of great information about a topic I aggonize about a lot. I feel like the invisible member of my generation; a tool used to fill other peoples' needs rather than a person in my own right. In my family of origin my brother and his mental and phsical illnesses pretty much took up all the parental focus available (essentially single parent family- dad left when I was 7). My brother could do no wrong (he "can't help it"), and I was more or less coopted to be the teacher/social worker/jail warden in the "crazy house". I am none of those things professionally, but I was expected to stay on and help manage a person who has never been taught any common decency (interestingly enough, he CAN help it, when it serves him to do so). So my narcs are professional sympathy cases. Their negative behaviors go beyond the frustration that might be reasonable in response to the challenges they have; they seem to be bent on alternately using me up and destroying me. It really rocked everyone's world when I moved to another state to remarry in my mid 30's. I wasn't supposed to do that, and I even get the hate vibes and looks from the general public when I go back to visit (which I do infrequently). Stories seem to be told in my absence, even though I do a number of things that are very supportive to them (guilt has always worked magic on making me do stuff that isn't for my own good).

Not realizing what the true ramifications of my upbringing were (my abuse was mostly covert, though I have a number of truly outrageous stories that would be recognized as the abuse that they are), I got married really young and had a daughter a year later. During her childhood my mother fairly latched onto my daughter as her own. Not understanding what was going on, I more or less became the invisible generation in that scenario. My mother stated that she always wished she had had another child (too bad- by then she was 50, and in my opinion did a not too great job with the two children she did have). A year or so ago my daughter even told me that my mother had said to her "I'm glad you and I are close; your mother and I have never been close." Never been close! Who is close to the narc? Only people who are tricked and sucked into supplying them. All through my childhood I knew it was all about her (and by extention, all about my brother). I was held in place by statements like "your jealous/ selfish". I worked to turn myself inside out to prove otherwise. I give and give and give, trying to make sympathy cases happy- not surprisingly, it's a job never well done and never completed.

I have had a good relationship with my daughter, although it feels like there is sometimes a wall between us emotionally. I feel like I probably under-react to things emotionally, since the price of letting some people (narcs) know how you feel is often the fact that those people have the weapons to hurt because they know where you are vulnerable. The one thing I wish I had done before becoming a parent would have been to really have understood and worked all of this stuff first. I can see how it has cost my daughter some of her emotional health, and we are finally working on that now (she is a young adult).

Sorry for the long reply to a post from way back (just found this part of ds). This should probably have been a new thread. Your posts helped me work though a number of things regarding trying to parent when you don't have the example of that and you have people who should support who manage to undermine and twist things in what I consider to be my most important relationship.