Surrendering, initially, and then having alternative actions that they are willing to take.

A person can apply themselves towards living a different way.

Does there have to be a HP involved? Hard to say really if inner change doesn't simply come from having alternative actions laid out for a person and that person being willing to act out those alternatives.

The HP might just be a good feeling that comes from thinking and acting differently and not any significant being or power.

The first step in recovery is what Nicky? Chapter 3 says we must admit to our inner most selves that we CANNOT drink like other people. Or to quote---"We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.

"We alcoholics are men and women who have LOST the ability to control our drinking. (in other words, we are powerless.) All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals----usually brief----were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness."

Now that tells me the answer to the first question is a resounding YES. Powerlessness is a defining feature of alcoholism. Then I am told that I cannot recover of my own free will. That I am powerless over the booze and therefore have no willpower to stop. I am also told that I need the help of a Power Greater than Myself to help solve my problem. Seems to me that would be a Higher Power, whom by the way I personally chose to call GOD.

Now maybe there are some out there who feel they are not powerless. That they do not need a HP to stay sober. Most of the time we bury such individuals. So if you are one of them, in the words of a sponsor of mine......you have two choices: 1] Make sure your plot is paid for and you have made provisions for your funeral....or 2]Start working the Steps with a sponsor and get sober.

Hey Happy, thanks for your reply - I know I am powerless, I have taken the steps and connected with a power greater than myself and been sober for a few years. I should maybe have made it clear that I wasnt asking the questions for myself really, rather to promote discussion on the subject. I have been interested and somewhat confused by some of the discussions on here lately and thought that peoples answers to these questions might help me understand where they are coming from in their thoughts.

Thanks again.

While I would advocate what the BB says ot other AAers, I have considered the answer to this question as to whether I am powerless over alcohol and feel, yes, of course, I am, if I were to take a drink.

The question was, "how do people recover from alcoholism without connecting to some power greater than themselves? Where do they get the power from?"

I have stated that it is quite possible that there is no HP, but that some people gain their power after surrendering to their own resources and decide that they must take on a completely different set of principles of living-hence the Steps.

What people fight so hard to convince others of is that there is a HP (a God) that is doing all the saving for them, when, in fact, what happens is that people start working the Steps and find the obsession removed. Is it not simply the adoption of a new way of life, one that is more humanistic, more spiritually minded (the Steps) one that requires action to maintain that could be the needed power?

Interesting how people will implore you that it is their HP that is keeping them sober, when the obsession is removed by doing the Steps and a maintaining a spiritual condition is really just practicing altruistic and spiritual principles in our life.

The Buddha refused to speak of the existence of an HP, but did of course practice a spiritual path which included service.

It seems necessary for us AAs to defend the idea and belief in a HP out of fear that we will get drunk. But, what about the Steps? They are the aligning principles-our actions (when aligned with the Steps) are what keep us experiencing peace and joy are they not?

As strange as it may seem many poeople who recover do have a power in their lives its called obsession, I used to have many a 'dry' period when I would have an overwhelming desire to go to the gym because I'd gained weight or to play football or do my degree during this period I was able to focus fully on these things and it stopped me wanting or needing a drink of alcohol.

I had merely replaced my obsession to drink with something else. However it wasn't anything permanant and so when the weight came off or the degree got done I found that alcohol was just waiting round the corner and very soon afterwards I was drinking again. These were all short term HP and while I was doing what I needed to do I was able to stay sober, very much the same as meeting makers.

I now have a HP that is with me constantly and requires me to do certain things on a daily basis for the rest of my life. I will never perfect this thing called life so therefore I will never be able to say 'ok done this lets move on' My HP never lets me down.

Loss of control is the defining characteristic of alcoholism in my opinion . If you can't stop drinking or you can't control how much you drink once you start, then science and common sense both tell us that you should get ready to start checking off "not yets"

Powerlessness is the:

Sensation of being out of control with no apparent solution to help you to regain control.

Accepting powerlessness is a control issue because:
It is a first step in accepting help for any problems which are stronger than you and are resistant to efforts to correct.

For when you understand the disease of addiction (and alcoholism is just one of the diseases of addiction), it is possible to accept the new brain research that proves how the years of substance abuse have actually changed the chemical and structural make-up of an alcoholicâs brain. This means they have âwiredâ brain maps that involve the crazed, all-consuming use of alcohol as the response to an arsenal of cues. Thus, as long as the alcoholic drinks ANY amount of alcohol, their brains have no other choice than to continue those brain maps and thus the insanity in their lives. They are powerless to control what their brains do if they drink. HOWEVER, if the alcoholic STOPS drinking alcohol, they can do what they need to do to remap their brains. This is the process known as recovery and involves getting and following treatment for their disease of addiction, and this is how the 12 steps have always worked. No shame as many anti A.A. opportunists try to debate. So there is really no loss of control, without the chemistry sets we redirect that control with the tools we are given.